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Would Fleming have kept writing Bond?

DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
edited August 2011 in Literary 007 Posts: 24,256
It becomes obvious in TMWTGG, quite an underestimated book in my opinion but that's besides the point now, that Fleming was planning to retire Bond. His own declining health might have been of grave importance in this respect, let's not overlook this factor. So what keeps bugging me is the question: had Fleming been alive and well, without any immediate health concerns, would he have kept Bond active during the 60s, possibly the 70s? And if so, would he have allowed Bond the eternal youth and modernness we are forced to accept from the films? What do you think?
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  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited August 2011 Posts: 15,723
    I fear that if Fleming had kept on writing Bond, he would have made Bond retired at some point... And no doubt the film franchise would have ended when adapting the final novel... Then again if he had lived to see other Bond's than Connery, maybe he would have seen the apparent endless possibilities on how Bond could be portrayed.
  • LudsLuds MIA
    Posts: 1,986
    @DC - Until now, since we're all in remakes, we'd get a bunch more ;)
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited August 2011 Posts: 15,723
    I wonder what Fleming would have thought of Moore's Bond, and movies such as MR simply disregarding the original novel... I'm pretty sure Fleming would have loved seeing Moore's MR. I dare say Fleming would appreciate Moore and Connery a lot more than Craig or Dalton... I can imagine Fleming coming up with plots just in-line for Sir Rog. IMO, Moore's take on the character and his films are much closer to Fleming than Craig's.
  • sinclairsinclair
    Posts: 10
    I think Fleming was already running low On his Bond resources, he claimed writing the stuff was getting harder every year. Looking at some of his work it's evident he was becoming repetitive, had difficulty with his plots and considered quitting altogether at least two times, after FRWL and after YOLT. The last book was mostly written because Fleming was urged to do it, not because he really felt it was necessary.

    That said there is evidence Fleming could have pondered at times to turn Bond into a brand like The Saint, with different writers picking up his character and continuing the business. Fleming suggested to Rex Stout to write a book together and made a similar offer to Len Deighton, perhaps in neither case entirely jokingly. At any rate it seems likely the example of The Saint might have made him think about a similar way to commercialise his hero beyond the film rights.
  • do_me_nicelydo_me_nicely Banned
    edited August 2011 Posts: 106
    ^ Maybe BUT we got the movies so does it matter ?? :-))
    I dont think if it does , we have Bond on a movie now .
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,331
    I think the whole Thunderball affair showed how much trouble Fleming had with writing new material. I think he would've killed him off, something he had been contemplaiting earlier iirc. It would fit the literary Bond to die on duty, as his nerves begin to give way.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,356
    I feel maybe Fleming even wrote The Man With The Golden Gun knowing it would be his last, it's gives off that kind of vibe. I think he would have continued for as long as he could and of course he did, but if he lived for longer Bond would have also reflected that time in his life.
  • Geo_BayGeo_Bay
    Posts: 44
    It becomes obvious in TMWTGG, quite an underestimated book in my opinion but that's besides the point now, that Fleming was planning to retire Bond. His own declining health might have been of grave importance in this respect, let's not overlook this factor. So what keeps bugging me is the question: had Fleming been alive and well, without any immediate health concerns, would he have kept Bond active during the 60s, possibly the 70s? And if so, would he have allowed Bond the eternal youth and modernness we are forced to accept from the films? What do you think?
    Personally I think it was a good thing that Fleming left the story of Bond unfinished. Although his early death was a tradgedy, in a way with him not ending the story and either retiring him, or killing him off, it has meant the films have continued.

    I could just see some money spinning saboteur for a certain film company thinking about killing him off and rebooting him into a kid action hero like Superman is going to be X(

    Or retiring him and making his nephew or someone made up take over X(

    In other words we have been spared the fashionable reboot into a kids film, although DAD came damn close!
  • BrutusBrutus
    Posts: 32
    I think that Fleming was getting tired of Bond, but would have done at least another novel or two. His poor health would have confined him indoors for months, and medical bills would have required him to make some sort of income. It's true he was running low on ideas, as Thunderball and most of the short stories were recycled from unused screenplays, but The Man with the Golden Gun was quite different from standard Spy thrillers.

    Arthur Conan Doyle tried to get rid of Sherlock Holmes several times, but the public kept demanding his return.
  • shadowonthesunshadowonthesun Banned
    Posts: 1,894
    I think the run of books that we got was quite good; none of them were unnecessary. So I think might have experimented with something else after Bond, but I don't think he would return to it unless he had a decent idea for a story first.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,584
    At least we would have had a few more decent titles for the films.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,356
    At least we would have had a few more decent titles for the films.
    No one could have known we'd need titles for 14 plus films though. We can hardly complain about this for the 23rd film in the series.

    EON just need those notebooks that have been mentioned recently...
  • Risico007Risico007
    Posts: 9,858
    I know the Notebook exists and i know it had the beginning of a short story Fleming was working on also it had some of the scenes that wound up in octopussy and A view to a kill

    (Fleming thought it would be a good idea for bond to infiltrate a masquerade dressed as clown I believe and there was the idea of a climax on a national monument but Fleming couldn't decide which one)

    There were a few titles that Fleming liked as well a character name or 2

    so yes Fleming was thinking of continuing on with 007

    I believe someone here had a ton more detail on the contents of the notebook but I can't remember who I know it was DEFINITELY this forum.

    Who knows maybe if Fleming had survived the next bond novel after TMWGG would of been Skyfall hey you never know right?

    or maybe Colonel Sun written by Fleming?

    you never know.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Had Fleming lived to write more novels, we probably wouldn't have any of the continuation novels. Personally, I like other authors fleshing the characters out. And I doubt Fleming would have accepted a female M.
  • BounineBounine
    edited November 2011 Posts: 2,599
    Would Fleming have kept writing more (had he been in good health)? That's a difficult one. My guess is maybe three, four or possibly five following TMWTGG. He certainly may have finally tired of the character at this point. Whether he would have eventually killed the protagonist off as he originally planned to do in FRWL or had him retire comfortably on some tropical island such as Jamaica, I couldn't guess. Maybe it would have depended on the mood he was in while writing the last book and how many glasses of gin he had consumed. LOL.
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    Fleming depended financially on his creation. So I think he would have written a few more I guess. And he would have laughed all the way to the bank.

    My greatest fear however would have been that had Fleming remained alive and had witnessed the huge success of his character what would have been the consequences to his writing. Already the actor Sean Connery had an impact on the last book Fleming wrote where 007 got some Scottish roots. Would Fleming have written more towards the movie character or remain faithfull to his own version.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Who knows. Some of the continuation novels seem more movie-Bond than book-Bond, and I definitely get the feeling with the Bourne continuation novels that I'm reading Matt Damon going around and being a spy, which I didn't get from Ludlum's novels.
  • SAMSAM
    Posts: 107
    Although Ian Fleming could not have continued writing James Bond novels forever, it would have been great had he been able to.

    I would also point out that practically every great Bond movie was originally based upon an Fleming novel e.g. CR, FRWL and OHMSS
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Yes, but, sadly, several misfires have been as well. Goldfinger, for example. Diamonds are Forever, too. Octopussy had some relation to the short story, and it was horrible.
  • BounineBounine
    edited November 2011 Posts: 2,599
    Fleming depended financially on his creation. So I think he would have written a few more I guess. And he would have laughed all the way to the bank.

    My greatest fear however would have been that had Fleming remained alive and had witnessed the huge success of his character what would have been the consequences to his writing. Already the actor Sean Connery had an impact on the last book Fleming wrote where 007 got some Scottish roots. Would Fleming have written more towards the movie character or remain faithfull to his own version.
    I don't think he would have veered away from the literary character. Giving Bond Scottish roots isn't changing his personality. Fleming was around for the Dr No and FRWL movies and he never allowed his character to utter the one liners in the books thank god! He wrote YOLT following the release of the FRWL film I think.
  • St_GeorgeSt_George Shuttling Drax's lovelies to the space doughnut - happy 40th, MR!
    Posts: 1,699
    At least we would have had a few more decent titles for the films.
    Nice point there, Nackers. ;)

    Mind, had Fleming kept writing Bond - had he lived a bit longer - then I suspect the 'law of diminishing returns' would have kicked in. Plus, Fleming's Bond's in the late '60s and '70s wouldn't quite have fitted those eras as it so perfectly did the '50s and early-mid-'60s.

    Having said all that, he probably wouldn't have carried on with Bond had he lived longer. He'd been churning one out every year for over a decade - I suspect he'd have probably decided he was all Bonded-out...

  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Mind, had Fleming kept writing Bond - had he lived a bit longer - then I suspect the 'law of diminishing returns' would have kicked in. Plus, Fleming's Bond's in the late '60s and '70s wouldn't quite have fitted those eras as it so perfectly did the '50s and early-mid-'60s.

    Having said all that, he probably wouldn't have carried on with Bond had he lived longer. He'd been churning one out every year for over a decade - I suspect he'd have probably decided he was all Bonded-out...

    Good points, all. Plus, I doubt Bond's eventual return through continuation authors would have had less effect. Say he lived only up until 1970, then we would have had the books alongside the better of the early films (I do say the film quality diminished somewhat when Moore took over, though I still loved his films), and then a decade later (we'll say Gardner took over in '81, like he really did), we'd have License Renewed, but we'd have only lost Bond for a decade.

    I think the reason the continuations took off was because the last "advertized" Bond (so to speak) was Colonel Sun, not long after Fleming's death, and then there was a period of fourteen or fifteen years before a new original Bond novel came out. That greater gap of time gave us a greater appreciation for the character, and thus his return was marked as a grand occasion, instead of if there'd only been a decade, where we'd basically just be "oh, hey, new Bond novel came out last wednesday", which is what I think happened when Benson took over, and why so few continuation novels are made today.

    Basically, what I'm saying is that we need long gaps, so that when new novels are made again, the satisfaction will live longer. So, sad as it is to say, perhaps Fleming died at the right time.
  • blakewhoblakewho
    Posts: 100
    Fleming was seriously ill and bored of Bond by the time he wrote TMWTGG. Had he lived, a gap of some years and improved health might have brought him back to the character with renewed energy and enthusiasm. Had he lived, I suspect the public clamour for more Bond would have guaranteed a new book once every five years, perhaps, but not with the frequency of old.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,256
    St_George wrote:
    Mind, had Fleming kept writing Bond - had he lived a bit longer - then I suspect the 'law of diminishing returns' would have kicked in. Plus, Fleming's Bond's in the late '60s and '70s wouldn't quite have fitted those eras as it so perfectly did the '50s and early-mid-'60s.

    A valid point. The cinematic Bond displays a surprising talent for adaptation to modern politics, technology and geography. But would Fleming have trapped him in the '60s or would he too have kept pushing Bond two minutes into the future?
    St_George wrote:
    Having said all that, he probably wouldn't have carried on with Bond had he lived longer. He'd been churning one out every year for over a decade - I suspect he'd have probably decided he was all Bonded-out...

    And mightn't that have been the best choice ultimately? Now at least, Fleming kept the Bonds tight and precise, superbly written and creatively conceived. Even his last effort, often chewed out as an inferior book, is great material IMO.

  • graemegraeme
    Posts: 5
    TMWTGG was a first draft- I wonder how much better the book would have been if Ian Fleming had redrafted it- maybe it would have had another title ie "Scaramanga". After all "The Richest Man In The World" was retitled "Goldfinger"

    I know it's been used as a fan fiction title but "My Enemy's Enemy" (from Fleming's scrapbook) would have been good
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    I was unaware Goldfinger had a title before Goldfinger.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,382
    I wonder if Fleming would have definitively killed Bond off, eventually.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Probably. He would have gone over the Reichenbach Falls. It's a classic British author move when they want to kill their beloved character.
  • KennonKennon
    Posts: 297
    Maybe we should ask 'Would Fleming have been able to stop writing Bond?'

    Look at it this way: he's always been more interested in earning money than in earning recognition of the serious intellectual circles. Make no mistake, he wanted that too, craved for it, coquetted with what he could write if he only was interested enough. It hurt him badly that he was widely considered an author of cheap pulp thrillers for the masses. But had he had the choice he would always have chosen the cash. He couldn't help himself, it was just his nature.

    But I think there is also one other strong motive that's perhaps often overlooked when Fleming is discussed: Bond enabled Fleming to relive that time of his life, the war. And Bond gave him an excuse to foster his daydreams, to cultivate and relish them. It was an outlet for his fantasies and a passable means to indulge. Fleming minus Bond would not have been a happy man for a long time. The regular exercise of his adventure muscle had become a necessity for him, especially as it provided a retreat from his troubled private life. Fleming may have been pretty worn out by TMWTGG but the book has some strong ideas and scenes and with the necessary time and health I think Fleming could have gone on for quite some time. I doubt he'd have been able to keep his hands off the typewriter for longer than a year or two.
  • thelordflasheartthelordflasheart
    Posts: 1,370
    Kennon, that's one of the best posts I've read in a very long time. Wonderfully astute analysis.
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