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Do Bond titles still need the naked women?

saunderssaunders Living in a world of avarice and deceit
edited October 2013 in Bond Movies Posts: 987
The Maurice Binder classic titles are always fondly remembered for their iconic silhouetted naked ladies swimming, jumping, bouncing, running and basically anything else that made their bits wobble. Daniel Kleinman, though an excellent title producer has scaled back on the ladies, the nakedness and most worryingly the wobbliness, in CR we had just a mere Vesper face profile to satisfy the 'male gaze' and SF's motifs of death, childhood, loss and fear left little room for large breasted lovelies firing lugers in slow motion.
In interviews Daniel Kleinman has often stated that the silhouetted naked ladies thing is all rather passé now and the cinema going public of the 21st century are much too sophisticated and forward thinking to enjoy images of women being objectified. Don't get me wrong I love Kleinman's work and rate CR and SK as the best titles of the entire series, but I do question the validity of the idea that hot, naked, jiggling girls are no longer considered suitable or required Bond title material.

So what do you chaps (and ladies) think, are the naked silhouette Bond girls an embarrassing, shameful affront to womenkind and should be left in the distant past or are you a sane, normal person who can enjoy the artistic beauty of naked women wobbling rhythmically to a Bond theme song?

Comments

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited October 2013 Posts: 24,187
    The accusation that Bond films objectify women, for instance through the silhouettes, is nonsense. If anything, they accentuate the grace and beauty of the female body. Also, we mustn't apply contemporary feminism to a series that sprung from the mind of one Ian Fleming in the early 1950s and jumped to screens less than a decade later.

    I'm not saying they are mandatory. CR did things very well IMO. On the other hand, I see no reason why they should be left out either. Substitute them for something fresh and original - again, CR - and I'm fine with that. Leave them out for some twisted anti-sexist reason, and I'll quote Dalton in TLD: "We have an old saying too ... and you're full of it." I'd rather see CR end up an exception, not the rule henceforth.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Well, I'm a woman and am watching Skyfall now (again) and I do love the opening titles sequence (about an hour ago for me as I type this)- there are two girls who are completely reminiscent of the old silhouetted naked women shown in other Bond titles, but you do not see nipples or even outlines of them. I have to say it is beautifully done though; the one girl with dark hair holding the gun towards the camera and a bit later the blonde girl in a silvery effect that is eye catching as she moves; lovely, sexy but not too obviously naked. Very nicely done indeed.

    I don't mind them unless it is really in your face naked bodies; that would be too much for a Bond film. I have enjoyed all of the titles sequences over the years. I'd like more along the lines of Skyfall, maybe have a bit longer sequence with the girls if the gents would like that (and why wouldn't they?).
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited October 2013 Posts: 5,080
    4EverBonded wrote:
    Well, I'm a woman and am watching Skyfall now (again) and I do love the opening titles sequence (about an hour ago for me as I type this)- there are two girls who are completely reminiscent of the old silhouetted naked women shown in other Bond titles, but you do not see nipples or even outlines of them. I have to say it is beautifully done though; the one girl with dark hair holding the gun towards the camera and a bit later the blonde girl in a silvery effect that is eye catching as she moves; lovely, sexy but not too obviously naked. Very nicely done indeed.

    I don't mind them unless it is really in your face naked bodies; that would be too much for a Bond film. I have enjoyed all of the titles sequences over the years. I'd like more along the lines of Skyfall, maybe have a bit longer sequence with the girls if the gents would like that (and why wouldn't they?).

    Are you referring to that virtually naked woman from the Octopussy titles with nothing but two thin straps covering her nipples? :)
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    No - I have not minded any of the titles, so I was not saying that. I meant for future films.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    The titles and how and what has been put up on the screen are always associated with Bond. For example take a look at how much discord their has been about no Gun barrel sequence at the start of the movie. Or it being at the end of the film.

    If you remove the girls? What next? Would it be the guns and other weapons? What would you replace them with? In a way would you remove the prologue running intro story from the Star Wars movies that set the story up for the audience? In a word? No.

    For me if ain't broke? Don't fix it! Update it by all means and chuck in elements of the film but don't remove one of the icons of the Bond franchise! [-(
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,127
    They should not be mandatory (see CR, as other posters said), but should not be taboo either.

    I never thought the titles objectified women. I think they iconised them, which is not exactly the same.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre
    Posts: 1,548
    YES AND YES AGAIN!
  • PerdoggPerdogg
    Posts: 686
    The PC police at EON will not allow such a thing anymore.
  • SoundofthesinnersSoundofthesinners
    Posts: 3,236
    Perdogg wrote:
    The PC police at EON will not allow such a thing anymore.

    Even though they were in the Skyfall PTS?
  • Perilagu_KhanPerilagu_Khan
    Posts: 2,483
    In a word, yes.

    And now more than ever.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    Yes, that's all part of what the titles should be. I look forward to them being in future films, hopefully a little more than they have recently.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,220
    Yes!
  • harkawayharkaway
    Posts: 31
    Plueeeze! Cut the knee-jerk reactions and the BS about PC-crap police and let's be honest for a sec. What's needed is great main title design, not just 'nekkid wimin' to tick another box on the list. Some titles couldn't be rescued by an army of nude Miss contest finalists no matter what.
  • StirredNotShakenStirredNotShaken Toronto
    edited October 2013 Posts: 2,402
    Perdogg wrote:
    The PC police at EON will not allow such a thing anymore.

    You'll make any kind of negative prediction about the future, won't you? Regardless of whether or not it makes sense (and with you it seldom does).

    Anyway, I don't think a single, individual Bond title needs a naked woman in it (CR), but I certainly wouldn't like ALL the titles from here on to exclude them.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Well for me the titles should be Bondian. I found CR's very much so. QoS I found terrible and SF I found excellent. Are the girls absolutely necesarry? No. Do they add something Bondian? Yes they do. So, in a way, if they're not there, there should be a bloody good reason for it.
  • retrokittyretrokitty The Couv
    Posts: 380
    I like the naked dancers. It's gorgeous imagery. Some of it really blended well with the other images and music and such. It does feel a bit PC to not have them in the title sequences. As CommanderRoss said, if they are not there, there should be a good reason for it. OTHER THAN POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,282
    I'd say no to this one. I think that the CR and SF titles symbolism was great and was a refreshing change, as was that of GE. It shows that naked women silhouettes are not the be-all and end-all when it comes to James Bond film titles sequences.
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    I have never looked upon the titles as anything sexual, exciting YES.

    They do stand for the image of 007's adventures, symbolism is fine but throw in a few naked ladies and you have the recipe for 007.

    But then lately we have seen how much iconic parts of the movie franchise means for EON and Mendes.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    To be perfectly honest I thought the girls in the QoS title sequence had no real business of being there. I think the last 2 Bond movies in particular lack the usual sexual punctuation the films in the series are known for having but maybe that's just me.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    CommanderRoss wrote:
    Well for me the titles should be Bondian. I found CR's very much so. QoS I found terrible and SF I found excellent. Are the girls absolutely necesarry? No. Do they add something Bondian? Yes they do. So, in a way, if they're not there, there should be a bloody good reason for it.

    Oh yes, this.

    I thought CR and SF both had outstanding title sequences.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,127
    Perdogg wrote:
    The PC police at EON will not allow such a thing anymore.

    And you're wrong already.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Bare nekkid ladies in the titles is so 20th.
  • Baltimore_007Baltimore_007
    Posts: 5,634
    Not going to waste much time this night, but am also in the minority that 'do we really need them anymore' and as mentioned in the above, seems like a throwback to the old days of Bond and Kleinman for one, had introduced better images to tie in with the times of release. Binder went a little over the top sometimes with his creations, and while a little of the actual subject matter wouldn't hurt, I don't think we need to see levels of inclusion (now), as witnessed in previous releases. Casino Royale's titles, were banal and mundane to say the least, and a little included there wouldn't have hurt, Quantum of Solace from what I remember, didn't featured much either in the way, and seemed almost as nauseating as the actual opening from memory, and Skyfall also didn't feature much, as it took a more surreal path (that I greatly enjoyed)

    People say "don't change the traditions or most valued elements of the series" by way of it, but it's too late for that for some, and bottom line is, I don't think the inclusion of the said naked women really need to be a part of the series now. Just seems archaic now from a certain perspective
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    It's like asking if we need a title sequence anymore. Sexy ladies have always been a staple in Bond movie titles. Granted CR was an exception, but I think if they help convey the mood of the movie, there game in my book.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    edited October 2013 Posts: 7,314
    saunders wrote:
    In interviews Daniel Kleinman has often stated that the silhouetted naked ladies thing is all rather passé now and the cinema going public of the 21st century are much too sophisticated and forward thinking to enjoy images of women being objectified
    That's funny because I'd say that the cinema going public is more stupid now then it's ever been.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    pachazo wrote:
    saunders wrote:
    In interviews Daniel Kleinman has often stated that the silhouetted naked ladies thing is all rather passé now and the cinema going public of the 21st century are much too sophisticated and forward thinking to enjoy images of women being objectified
    That's funny because I'd say that the cinema going public is more stupid now then it's ever been.



    :)) That is maybe true. As for the question asked, I really dont care. I want a good MTS, with or without the girls. Kleinman has been superb so far.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited October 2013 Posts: 18,282
    Thunderfinger wrote:
    pachazo wrote:
    saunders wrote:
    In interviews Daniel Kleinman has often stated that the silhouetted naked ladies thing is all rather passé now and the cinema going public of the 21st century are much too sophisticated and forward thinking to enjoy images of women being objectified
    That's funny because I'd say that the cinema going public is more stupid now then it's ever been.



    :)) That is maybe true. As for the question asked, I really dont care. I want a good MTS, with or without the girls. Kleinman has been superb so far.

    I have to agree with you on the excellent work done by Daniel Kleinman. He is a great asset to the James Bond films and I think that his work on SF may be his best contribution so far, with not a naked girl silhouette in sight! For me at least, that speaks volumes.
  • Perilagu_KhanPerilagu_Khan
    Posts: 2,483
    pachazo wrote:
    saunders wrote:
    In interviews Daniel Kleinman has often stated that the silhouetted naked ladies thing is all rather passé now and the cinema going public of the 21st century are much too sophisticated and forward thinking to enjoy images of women being objectified
    That's funny because I'd say that the cinema going public is more stupid now then it's ever been.

    Agreed wholeheartedly.

  • JBFan626JBFan626
    Posts: 1,497
    Thunderfinger wrote:
    pachazo wrote:
    saunders wrote:
    In interviews Daniel Kleinman has often stated that the silhouetted naked ladies thing is all rather passé now and the cinema going public of the 21st century are much too sophisticated and forward thinking to enjoy images of women being objectified
    That's funny because I'd say that the cinema going public is more stupid now then it's ever been.

    :)) That is maybe true. As for the question asked, I really dont care. I want a good MTS, with or without the girls. Kleinman has been superb so far.

    So Kleinman felt the public was ok with objectifying women in 1999? We've made a lot of progress then in just 14 years.

    What Kleinman is overlooking is that the whole silhouetted nake lady thing was always a bit tongue in cheek. A Bond film indulged in the fact with how ridiculous and over the top it was. A Bond film was the ultimate fantasy: not to be taken seriously, but to have fun, be entertained, be swept up in the exotic locales, the luxurious living, and the daring and adventurous escapades. There was danger and excitement to be had and the visually stimulating title sequences conveyed this splendour beautifully. Silhouetted naked women or not, as long as the title sequences can continue to draw you in to this colorful and bombastic world, then they will continue to be effective. CR is a good example of pulling the view into the film by the bold and expressive visuals of the title sequence. That being said...the image of the silhouetted shouldn't need to be excluded simply for PC concerns alone. It's become a tradition in Bond films, so I think they can be worked back in effectively, if the tone is right for the film.

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