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The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    Has anyone thought perhaps Jay Scott made this comment because Irvin Kershner had just come off of The Empire Strikes Back?
  • Baltimore_007Baltimore_007
    Posts: 5,634
    Thesis appears ludicrous and an insult to some of the fine names that gave us respective James Bond releases. Disagree in every way possible
  • JBFan626JBFan626
    Posts: 1,497
    Depends how one defines first rate director. If we're talking box office success, then I would agree that all of the Bond director's up to that point achieved such success on Bond alone. But if we're talking outside the series, then the case can be made the Bond director's did not achieve success to a high level oustide Bond. But I disagree, for the fact that I wouldn't consider Kershner in that league, other than Empire or NSNA.

    I personally find the Bond production teams, especially in the 60's and 70's to be highly underrated and did not receive their due credit in the film making world early on, if on the box office level. The Bond films were trend-setting, ground breaking films, that thankfully over the years have garnered much more respect for their technical achievements.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Terence Young and Guy Hamilton, outside of Bond, were pretty much journeymen directors who you would never have heard of but for 007. But the same goes for Kershner. Take Empire from his CV and its pretty mediocre fare.

    Lewis Gilbert blows them all away and is the only one whose career is not defined exclusively by his involvement with Bond/Star Wars.

    But then in the early 80's (and even now to some) Empire was the best film ever made so its understandable the guy was trying to jump on the Star Wars bandwagon.

  • SirHenryLeeChaChingSirHenryLeeChaChing
    edited November 2013 Posts: 3,494
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 258</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Never Say Never Again "may be the only installment of the long-running series that has been helmed by a first-rate director". [Jay Scott for The Globe and Mail - 1983]</b></font>

    Talk about stirring the pot with this one ;)

    The term "moron" doesn't even begin to cover how much I disagree with the statement made by this idiot Jay Scott, who should be severely beaten over the head with his typewriter for even suggesting NSNA was well directed. If Kershner was so great the film wouldn't be the drizzling shit fest that it is, as a matter of fact any great director working and getting offers would have said no thanks. That makes Kershner second rate right there. Everyone he was being compared to was no less competent outside of the series, and in most cases more.
  • SoundofthesinnersSoundofthesinners
    Posts: 3,236
    Regarding The Empire Strikes Back, it was my impression (though I wasn't around then) that TESB was regarded as the weakest of the original trilogy, and only gained its classic status in the 90s as the VHS tapes were released in a set and people could see how well it fit into the story arc. I wasn't around, of course, but that's my impression.

    Figured this could provoke more debate than the original thesis, which has thus far received a resounding "no".
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Soundofthesinners wrote:
    Regarding The Empire Strikes Back, it was my impression (though I wasn't around then) that TESB was regarded as the weakest of the original trilogy, and only gained its classic status in the 90s as the VHS tapes were released in a set and people could see how well it fit into the story arc. I wasn't around, of course, but that's my impression.

    Figured this could provoke more debate than the original thesis, which has thus far received a resounding "no".

    Totally reminds me of this moment. :))
  • StirredNotShakenStirredNotShaken Toronto
    Posts: 2,402
    Soundofthesinners wrote:
    Regarding The Empire Strikes Back, it was my impression (though I wasn't around then) that TESB was regarded as the weakest of the original trilogy, and only gained its classic status in the 90s as the VHS tapes were released in a set and people could see how well it fit into the story arc. I wasn't around, of course, but that's my impression.

    Figured this could provoke more debate than the original thesis, which has thus far received a resounding "no".

    I've ALWAYS preferred A New Hope, though I can't believe that Empire could ever have been considered weaker than Jedi.
  • SoundofthesinnersSoundofthesinners
    Posts: 3,236
    StirredNotShaken wrote:
    Soundofthesinners wrote:
    Regarding The Empire Strikes Back, it was my impression (though I wasn't around then) that TESB was regarded as the weakest of the original trilogy, and only gained its classic status in the 90s as the VHS tapes were released in a set and people could see how well it fit into the story arc. I wasn't around, of course, but that's my impression.

    Figured this could provoke more debate than the original thesis, which has thus far received a resounding "no".

    I've ALWAYS preferred A New Hope, though I can't believe that Empire could ever have been considered weaker than Jedi.

    Me too, although A New Hope and Empire are extremely close in my book.
  • StirredNotShakenStirredNotShaken Toronto
    Posts: 2,402
    Soundofthesinners wrote:
    StirredNotShaken wrote:
    Soundofthesinners wrote:
    Regarding The Empire Strikes Back, it was my impression (though I wasn't around then) that TESB was regarded as the weakest of the original trilogy, and only gained its classic status in the 90s as the VHS tapes were released in a set and people could see how well it fit into the story arc. I wasn't around, of course, but that's my impression.

    Figured this could provoke more debate than the original thesis, which has thus far received a resounding "no".

    I've ALWAYS preferred A New Hope, though I can't believe that Empire could ever have been considered weaker than Jedi.

    Me too, although A New Hope and Empire are extremely close in my book.

    As they are for me. All three are in fact. But I can definitely, even with that, say what the strongest, weakest, and middle of the pack are; ANH, ROTJ, TESB repsectively.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I prefer Empire Strikes Back.
  • StirredNotShakenStirredNotShaken Toronto
    Posts: 2,402
    I need to watch the trilogy again as it's been a few years, but from when I first saw them at five years old until now that has always been my ranking.
  • SoundofthesinnersSoundofthesinners
    Posts: 3,236
    StirredNotShaken wrote:
    I need to watch the trilogy again as it's been a few years, but from when I first saw them at five years old until now that has always been my ranking.

    Yes, it's been like 2 years since I last saw any of them, new or old. I suppose I'll have to watch at least a couple times between now and 2015.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    Soundofthesinners wrote:
    Regarding The Empire Strikes Back, it was my impression (though I wasn't around then) that TESB was regarded as the weakest of the original trilogy, and only gained its classic status in the 90s as the VHS tapes were released in a set and people could see how well it fit into the story arc.
    I can remember some people having that opinion, including myself. I was so young during that time and Empire was definitely the least "fun" of the three, from a kid's perspective. It wasn't until I was a teenager during the 90's that I realized how brilliant it was. It was very much the same experience that I had with OHMSS.
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    what a controversial quote which will undoubtely serve to some flaming.

    I would kindly state that the man who came up with this quote would today probably say that it was a bit of a gaffe.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    I'm glad I emphasised that the thesis wasn't my own. ;-)
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    DarthDimi wrote:
    I'm glad I emphasised that the thesis wasn't my own. ;-)

    I never was in doubt that you were.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 259</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Now that the TB rights are recovered from McClory, Craig should go against Blofeld in one of the next Bond films. </b></font>
  • WillyGaloreWillyGalore
    Posts: 6,396
    You're incredibly naughty putting this thesis question on here @DarthDimi considering the furore on the other thread ;-)
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    WillyGalore wrote:
    You're incredibly naughty putting this thesis question on here @DarthDimi considering the furore on the other thread ;-)

    It's my way of ensuring a few pages of debate, @WillyGalore. ;-)
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    edited November 2013 Posts: 16,351
    No. I disagree and here's why.

    I don't want the name Ernst Stavro Blofeld to return. I would like the way Fleming wrote him to come to life on screen yes. But I'd rather he be a new villain. The changing appearances of the character is actually a great concept. When I say I don't want Blofeld back, I'm not saying it because I don't want the Bald guy with the scar and white cat to come back. I'm saying I don't want him back because it would be a big WTF moment and mess up continuity and would be formulaic since reboots are now bringing back old villains to cash in.

    Blofeld died in the original timeline yes. So technically he can return. BUT! I don't want it to be "Ernst Stavro Blofeld".

    The character Blofeld that Fleming wrote (Post Thunderball) Is a very cool and evil villain and should be adapted properly. But why should he be called Blofeld? Why can't EON Adapt Blofeld and make him a new character. I like the name Guntram Shatterhand. It's very gothic and mysterious. By doing this, everyone get's what they want. A proper adaptation to the Blofeld character, while making him a new and original threat. Does he have to run Quantum? No. He could have a hidden agenda much like Silva.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Murdock wrote:
    No. I disagree and here's why.

    I don't want the name Ernst Stavro Blofeld to return. I would like the way Fleming wrote him to come to life on screen yes. But I'd rather he be a new villain. The changing appearances of the character is actually a great concept. When I say I don't want Blofeld back, I'm not saying it because I don't want the Bald guy with the scar and white cat to come back. I'm saying I don't want him back because it would be a big WTF moment and mess up continuity and would be formulaic since reboots are now bringing back old villains to cash in.

    Blofeld died in the original timeline yes. So technically he can return. BUT! I don't want it to be "Ernst Stavro Blofeld".

    The character Blofeld that Fleming wrote (Post Thunderball) Is a very cool and evil villain and should be adapted properly. But why should he be called Blofeld? Why can't EON Adapt Blofeld and make him a new character. I like the name Guntram Shatterhand. It's very gothic and mysterious. By doing this, everyone get's what they want. A proper adaptation to the Blofeld character, while making him a new and original threat. Does he have to run Quantum? No. He could have a hidden agenda much like Silva.
    Nothing to add, just to support this view
  • SoundofthesinnersSoundofthesinners
    Posts: 3,236
    Murdock wrote:
    No. I disagree and here's why.

    I don't want the name Ernst Stavro Blofeld to return. I would like the way Fleming wrote him to come to life on screen yes. But I'd rather he be a new villain. The changing appearances of the character is actually a great concept. When I say I don't want Blofeld back, I'm not saying it because I don't want the Bald guy with the scar and white cat to come back. I'm saying I don't want him back because it would be a big WTF moment and mess up continuity and would be formulaic since reboots are now bringing back old villains to cash in.

    Blofeld died in the original timeline yes. So technically he can return. BUT! I don't want it to be "Ernst Stavro Blofeld".

    The character Blofeld that Fleming wrote (Post Thunderball) Is a very cool and evil villain and should be adapted properly. But why should he be called Blofeld? Why can't EON Adapt Blofeld and make him a new character. I like the name Guntram Shatterhand. It's very gothic and mysterious. By doing this, everyone get's what they want. A proper adaptation to the Blofeld character, while making him a new and original threat. Does he have to run Quantum? No. He could have a hidden agenda much like Silva.

    What he said. At least this debate won't be as dull as the one about how much NSNA sucked.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Disagree. Said what I need to say, I'm already tired of it turning into an argument and questioning.
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    NO please return to the folks of QUANTUM, unless we are talking bald chicks, they are kind of sexy. ;)
  • WillyGaloreWillyGalore
    Posts: 6,396
    DarthDimi wrote:
    WillyGalore wrote:
    You're incredibly naughty putting this thesis question on here @DarthDimi considering the furore on the other thread ;-)

    It's my way of ensuring a few pages of debate, @WillyGalore. ;-)

    Or it's your way of lighting the blue touch paper, standing back and enjoying the fireworks :D
  • MrBondMrBond Station S
    Posts: 2,044
    Disagree
    Why bring Blofeld back if he's going to be "revitalized for the 21st century"? Why not bring in a new and original characther then?
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    edited November 2013 Posts: 12,837
    Agree. Can't really be arsed pointing out why and arguing over it again. Check the Mcclory rights thread if you want to know why.
  • MorganMorgan
    Posts: 16
    'Recovered'?. McClory's rights in Thunderball pre-date Eon. The word you are looking for is, 'Acquired'.
  • fjdinardofjdinardo
    Posts: 1,970
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 259</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Now that the TB rights are recovered from McClory, Craig should go against Blofeld in one of the next Bond films. </b></font>

    No Blofeld and Spectre should not be in any Bond films ever again.
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