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Is a black James Bond inevitable ?

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  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited August 2011 Posts: 28,694
    It's been going strong for 50 years. It's almost always worked, I don't see why they would need to make such a drastic change to the character just yet. Now, if the next three or four films dropped financially and people started to gripe about Craig and the race of the character, then yes, I could see them making a change - possibly with another reboot - and giving that a shot. But until then, Bond is doing well: why change it?
    Exactly my point @Creasy. If a change won't improve the films, why do it? It'll just end with legions of angry fans.
  • Monsieur_AubergineMonsieur_Aubergine Top of the Eiffel Tower with a fly in my soup!
    edited August 2011 Posts: 642
    A real shame this thread. featuring some very provocative statements. What some are suggesting is that being black is a preclusion to take on a fictional role is downright wrong. How many varying actors have played Hamlet, Macbeth etc If we are to offend Fleming by casting a black man, then Shakespeare must be turning in his grave if that be the case. An horrific assertion. At what point do we cease to become humanly equal?
    The word inevitable suggests a resignation to the fact that it may happen. Very sad it should even be debated in this good vs bad scenario.
    I love the character and the franchise more than anything believe me, but let's not create a preferred option on race...you might as well become Hugo drax or Stromberg. No one should be lesser and if it's cultural heritage that sways opinion I say again, this is fiction. It's a pity this should be an issue, even today. Very sad.
    This has nothing to do with my view being progressive, how about realist. Start respecting a bit more and accepting that a character can be inhabited by any actor.
    Ben Kingsley - Ghandi!! Let's not suck the integrity of this great forum and website into a provocative minefield.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    @0Brady, you've got that right. It's like with so many games and other films today, people complain that it's the same thing over and over, or that nothing changes...yet, it still works and reels in the money. Just like 'Transformers' or the 'Call of Duty' series: they work, people complain that they are all the same, and yet they still reel in the cash and try to be enjoyable each time one is released. Bond worked from the start, it still works, and it will continue to work until something drastic happens and they do decide to make a change as big as this.
  • shutch7shutch7
    Posts: 46
    @Monsieur, I get where you are coming from, but I think the point that many of us are trying to make including @DaltonCraig who started the thread is that for some reason by defending the fact that Bond should be a white man we are classified as racists which for the overwhelming majority of us who hold that opinion cannot be further from the truth. That's a shame as well. I'm not saying that some people don't have prejudicial and racial reasons for not wanting Bond to be played by a black actor because I know there are, but for most of us the reasons are strictly for accuracy purposes. I just think it's it's a shame, and I share @DaltonCraig's frustration in the fact that because he believes a black actor should not play Bond because Bond was very specifically described as being white, he is automatically labeled a racist.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    @shutch7 said it perfectly: I would say that about all of us on this board and commenting here would agree that we prefer Bond to be white - because that's how Fleming created him, that's how we want him. We aren't racist in the slightest. If the day Fleming sat down and started to write the Bond novels, he made Bond black, then this conversation would probably be reversed, and I'm sure plenty of us would care that Bond was black. But because that isn't the case, and we just enjoy an accurate Bond - white and English - then we are seen as racist, no matter how much we dispute or fight that opinion.
  • shutch7shutch7
    Posts: 46
    Exactly @Creasy, and I don't think it is out of line to make comparisons to a white actor playing prominent black fictional characters, or a black actor playing a prominent asian fictional character. It wouldn't be accurate to cast a white man as Shaft, B.A. Baracus (from the A-team), or the superhero Black Panther because a major factor in their personality and the essence of the character is their race and culture. Now, has it happened before? Of course, as you mentioned, many black actors have appeared in Shakespeare and things of the like, but our frustration comes from the fact that if we were to say that we disagreed with the casting of a black man in a Shakespeare role or as James Bond for any reason, then we are labeled racists. That is simply 100% false.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    @shutch7, absolutely. And yes, it's happened before, and yes, some of the people who make such complaints are racist and don't appreciate a black actor being cast in any role of the sort, but some of us like to retain accuracy, whether it be in literature, history, etc. I think when 'Thor' was about to be released, Idris Elba was cast as a God who was white, perhaps? I don't know, I never saw the film, but I knew sparks were flying when that was announced. Just things like that: I can understand if you don't appreciate the casting because of accuracy, but if you're a plain racist, then that's something else entirely. We here are the former, and far from the latter.
  • timmertimmer
    Posts: 4,622
    A real shame this thread. featuring some very provocative statements.
    Not really. There is nothing shameful about honest free expression of thought.

    What some are suggesting is that being black is a preclusion to take on a fictional role is downright wrong.
    No-one has suggested that. What has been suggested is that this character, James Bond, has a distinct ethnicity as envisioned by his creator. Through 53 books,numerous comics, 23 films and 6 casting decisions, that vision has been respected. What people are suggesting is a desire to continue respect for that tradition. If in the distant future, there is a popular sentiment for an Asian James Bond, the custodians of the franchise might very well acquiese, especially if there is a buck to be made. This would not be wrong. It would be just addressing a contempory demand.

    The word inevitable suggests a resignation to the fact that it may happen. Very sad it should even be debated in this good vs bad scenario.
    Its only sad if you are a progressive thinker pre-occupied with formulating correct thinking attitude and opinion. Can you not see that people might honestly respect and value the vision of the character as originally created and maintained all these decades - that they might with honest resignation, bereft of any rascist inclination, rue the day when the character might be substantially changed. How is this sad? Rather it is simply an expression of preference.

    I love the character and the franchise more than anything believe me, but let's not create a preferred option on race...you might as well become Hugo drax or Stromberg. No one should be lesser and if it's cultural heritage that sways opinion I say again, this is fiction. It's a pity this should be an issue, even today. Very sad.
    Cheer up for God's sakes! :) No-one has referred to the black race as "lesser." Why you would suggest such a thing is, well, -I'm tempted to say "sad":-( - but I'll just say it's odd.
    Let's not suck the integrity of this great forum and website into a provocative minefield
    It seems many think that casting Bond as black might be rather provocative.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I think your comments are downright offensive @Monsieur_Aubergine. I can't believe some of the baseless claims I've read from you in this thread and which @timmer brilliantly outlined. You seem to think of today's people as those of the 50s and 60s. It appalls me to see you make those claims that we are racist because we want a white Bond without even knowing us personally. I find your statements criticizing our ethnic views more disgusting than those baseless claims. If this thread is just going to continue to be about members calling out others, I'm done here. This thread wasn't started to be of that resolve.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I agree with @0Brady and @timmer. Don't ever judge or criticize someone when you don't know anything about them. This thread was created for us to talk about if we think Bond will ever be black. Sure, tempers may flare, but that doesn't give any of us the right to call another person a racist or something outlandish like that when you don't know anything about us.
  • Monsieur_AubergineMonsieur_Aubergine Top of the Eiffel Tower with a fly in my soup!
    Posts: 642
    Firsty, I would like to apologise. Genuinely, anyone who felt affronted by my comments, I am sorry.

    However, I have made no accusation of out an out racism against any person/s on this thread. the title itself regards race, so forgive me for taking this tangent.

    I have purely highlighted the, or at least my, sadness in the fact that such a matter (for whatever reasons) should be the cause of discord with our beloved franchise. I purposefully did not directly quote comments because it was not an intention to make it personal. We challenge each other in lots of other threads so why shouldn't a concern be voiced in this.

    As I say, I apologise for causing upset and if i have missed the boat in terms if context also. This is an emotive subject from all sorts of angles, may be I was just being a little too passionate.

    Best and without predjudice,

    Monsieur Aubergine
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    There are men who apologize just to get out of a sticky situation, and then there are men who note their mistake, or mistaken text, and genuinely apologize with no intentions of harm to the men who sited his mistake. You @Monsieur_Aubergine, are the latter. I and every other member in this forum thank you and we too meant no harm to you in our responses to your post. Not many could apologize as you have done. I thank you. ;-)
  • Char35tChar35t
    Posts: 289
    I dont care what race the actor as long as he can pull it off and his character is true to JAMES BOND...
    1. Queen/King and Country.
    2. Gambling, women and dining.
    3. wit and ruthlessness.
    4. Ability to fight and drive.

    those are what I look for in James Bond...not the colour of his hair, eyes or other body parts.

    are there other ethic goups fighting for the crown than just the one? yes many...
    so if the white actors all fail you wouldnt want an actor that could do the job?
    what of those of mixed heritage? surely even bond is of mixed heritage....

    dont forget there was a time when there was no white and all of europe was broken up into seperate races...
  • timmertimmer
    Posts: 4,622
    There are men who apologize just to get out of a sticky situation, and then there are men who note their mistake, or mistaken text, and genuinely apologize with no intentions of harm to the men who sited his mistake. You @Monsieur_Aubergine, are the latter. I and every other member in this forum thank you and we too meant no harm to you in our responses to your post. Not many could apologize as you have done. I thank you. ;-)
    Well said ! Aubergine is a respected and energetic memeber of the Bond community!

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,264
    It probably is inevitable eventually - if the cinematic Bond lasts that long, that is. But I doubt it'll be for some years yet; the mood of the fans, for one thing, is clearly not for it right now...
    Why would it be inevitable?

    It might happen, but that doesn't make it inevitable, does it?
  • VirageVirage
    Posts: 1,856
    No, No It Doesn't.
  • Mark_HazardMark_Hazard
    Posts: 65
    As one of the people in the video mentioned, MI6 has more than one agent, if someone wants a black 00, start your own franchise, either that or resurect Shaft.

    One thing that puzzled me was people saying that if Bond were to be black (or any other colour) he should still be played by a Brit and talk wth a British accent - if you're going to completely mess with a literary and filmic icon by changing his colour, what difference does his voice make, you might as well have him working for the CIA (as in the original tv Casino Royale) as well.

    I also remember some of that video being made at FanFest last year (I think I also linked to it on the old MI6 site), quite interesting that all of the interviewees are not on the video.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited August 2011 Posts: 13,355
    I also remember some of that video being made at FanFest last year (I think I also linked to it on the old MI6 site), quite interesting that all of the interviewees are not on the video.
    As in, some of the views weren't "liked" enough perhaps to make the cut?
  • lalala2004lalala2004
    Posts: 162
    I think the unlikelihood of Bond being played by a black actor is more from the character's long history of being caucasian, and the his having become that in a very real way.

    No, Bond is not a real person, but just as you would not cast a black actor to play a white historical figure in a film, you wouldn't cast a black actor as James Bond. It no longer makes sense to do so.

    My argument is that Bond has existed long enough to almost become real to many people. Racism has nothing to do with it. It's just a common sense casting decision at this point.

    It would anger fans and confuse everyone else to do otherwise.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694

    My argument is that Bond has existed long enough to almost become real to many people. Racism has nothing to do with it. It's just a common sense casting decision at this point.
    James Bond isn't a real person?! :O
  • lalala2004lalala2004
    Posts: 162

    My argument is that Bond has existed long enough to almost become real to many people. Racism has nothing to do with it. It's just a common sense casting decision at this point.
    James Bond isn't a real person?! :O
    You reiterate my point perfectly :-P
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    The fact is, it doesn't matter how long Bond has been around for, the longevity of the character doesn't alter the simple fact that Bond isn't real! Bond is a fictional character with a long history and with the alterations and liberties they take away from Fleming's character as it is, the least they can do is honour and respect what's left of the character by keeping his race in tact.
    Bond doesn't need to be black and what he does have going for him is, that his race is an iconic attribute that easily makes him recognisable instantly, moreso than other fictional characters. You can have a black guy play hamlet and it's not even a real concern and that's because it just doesn't matter but with Bond it's more different. For a black actor to play a 00, he/she doesn't need to be in a shaft movie or be a member of the CIA as mark_hazard so "intelligently" pointed out. They can play 00 agents, just not Bond imo. However, as I've stated in earlier posts, a black Bond is by no means inevitable but there could be a possibility of it happening at some point but personally, I'd rather they stick to the character of Bond as conceptually intended.
  • thelordflasheartthelordflasheart
    Posts: 1,370

    One thing that puzzled me was people saying that if Bond were to be black (or any other colour) he should still be played by a Brit and talk wth a British accent - if you're going to completely mess with a literary and filmic icon by changing his colour, what difference does his voice make, you might as well have him working for the CIA (as in the original tv Casino Royale) as well.

    Mark,

    As I said in a previous post, Bond's defining characteristic is that he's British. That's why he's described as "British secret agent James Bond" and not "white secret agent James Bond". It's like how Shaft is always described as the "black private dick", not the "American private dick".

    A friend of mine is both black and British. He's very good-looking, very smooth and charming, in great shape, a great dresser, and women love him. Sort of like a black Brosnan in many ways and some of our co-workers (both men and women) joke about how "Bond" he is. In fact, one woman was saying how he is more of a "classic Bond" like figure than Craig is!

    He was joking about how a lot of people equate British with "white". A great story is the black female stand up comedian who was touring the U.S. She was driving her BMV when she was pulled over for no reason by a police officer. When she started speaking to him in her educated British accent his face filled with confusion and he didn't know what to say. He told her that he didn't need to see her registration and that she could go. As she pulled away she thought "From the look on his face I was expecting him to say, oh, I'm sorry - I thought you were black". :-)

    If they were to make a period piece Bond film or one where his Scots/French Swiss background was important to the story then I would say yes, the actor must be white. But for a modern Bond film set in the present day featuring the "movie Bond" I have no problem with a black actor. Roger Moore had light brown hair and his hairsprayed back style precluded the "black comma of hair" hanging down over his eyebrow but I don't think that makes him less of a Bond, in the same way that Craig having blond hair and being one inch shorter than the Bond of the books makes him unqualified for the part.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694

    My argument is that Bond has existed long enough to almost become real to many people. Racism has nothing to do with it. It's just a common sense casting decision at this point.
    James Bond isn't a real person?! :O
    You reiterate my point perfectly :-P
    Sarcasm is the mark of a serious man's true self.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355

    My argument is that Bond has existed long enough to almost become real to many people. Racism has nothing to do with it. It's just a common sense casting decision at this point.
    James Bond isn't a real person?! :O
    You reiterate my point perfectly :-P
    Sarcasm is the mark of a serious man's true self.
    Which means lala has nothing to worry about. ;-)
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    The only thing one must worry about in life is whether or not they are doing the one thing their heart once desired.
  • Baltimore_007Baltimore_007
    Posts: 5,634
    some people said this country would never see a colored president

    Maybe having a 'black' 007 would be a bit from the norm but so what if he was, Leiter was colored in the last movie and no-one made anything of that

    they already changed it with Craig by having a blond bond so maybe one day in the not too distant future a colored bond may very much be a flesh and blood reality
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    some people said this country would never see a colored president

    Maybe having a 'black' 007 would be a bit from the norm but so what if he was, Leiter was colored in the last movie and no-one made anything of that

    they already changed it with Craig by having a blond bond so maybe one day in the not too distant future a colored bond may very much be a flesh and blood reality
    Felix has already been played by scores of actors and been colored before. He is not a CENTRAL-CENTRAL character like Bond and Bond only, and has always been changed up. Felix in CR wasn't inventing the wheel. And a blond Bond is far from the big picture. You can change your hair color any day of the week, but never your skin color. Bond needs to stick to the roots of his character.

  • timmertimmer
    edited August 2011 Posts: 4,622

    As I said in a previous post, Bond's defining characteristic is that he's British. That's why he's described as "British secret agent James Bond"
    That's how YOU choose to describe the character. That is YOUR defining singular characteristic. But its hardly the universal sole descriptor that you like to think it is.
    I don't think you are paying much attention to what others are saying though.
    Fact is Bond also has a defining ethnicity as does Shaft. Check the Fleming books if you don't believe me.
    btw, we all know black persons can be British, but thanks anyway for the anecdotes.
    Bond is a white Brit. End of story.

    =====Film Bond or even book Bond could be black, hispanic, Asian or green Martian in the distant future, if there was a buck to be made, but that would be a different character with its own unique ethnic or alien heritage.*-:)
  • thelordflasheartthelordflasheart
    Posts: 1,370

    As I said in a previous post, Bond's defining characteristic is that he's British. That's why he's described as "British secret agent James Bond"
    That's how YOU choose to describe the character. That is YOUR defining singular characteristic. But its hardly the universal sole descriptor that you like to think it is.
    I don't think you are paying much attention to what others are saying though.
    Fact is Bond also has a defining ethnicity as does Shaft. Check the Fleming books if you don't believe me.
    btw, we all know black persons can be British, but thanks anyway for the anecdotes.
    Bond is a white Brit. End of story.

    Timmer, the reason that I say that Bond is described as "British secret agent" isn't because it's only MY descriptor - that's how he was always described in write-ups of the films in the TV guides or movie reviews that I read. I have NEVER read anywhere where he is described as "white secret agent James Bond" in a plot write up or review, however I will obviously admit I'm wrong if you post a link to movie reviews or writeups or plot summaries that describe him that way.

    And I said in a previous post that Fleming wrote Bond (in the 1950s) as a white character but I don't see how the modern "movie Bond" *needs* to be white. There will be aspects of the actor playing Bond that will be the same as Fleming's character and aspects that are different.

This discussion has been closed.