Is Thunderball Overrated?

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  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited February 2014 Posts: 13,356
    Young directed his three favourite Bond novels and I'm sure he was glad to have done them. Thunderball was his favourite of all the books, followed by From Russia With Love then Dr. No - the three films he directed by in reverse order. It was only by that time, that the money was flowing too much for his liking however Young knew had Thunderball been made first it would have looked 'cheap'.

    So how did he regret directing it?
  • Posts: 19,339
    Walecs wrote:
    Young himself regretted to have directed Thunderball.

    Why did Young regret it ?

  • Posts: 12,526
    The whole here comes the biggest Bond of all is just pure marketing fever! And the impact of Bond was at a real highpoint back then.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,230
    I have always held Thunderball in extremely high regard. I personally think it's Connery's best performance, and all the great things about it have already been mentioned including the cinematography, the score, the baddie, and the Bond girls.

    The only thing negative I have to say about it is that I found it takes too long for Bond to end up going to the Bahamas. Almost half the film has passed before Bond actually begins to make headway in his investigation. The clinic stuff held it back, in my opinion.

    That being said, there's enough great stuff there for Thunderball to be considered a great film.
  • Posts: 19,339
    I also love the banter between Bond and Q and Bond and Volpe.

    Not many people mention the dialogue and banter throughout TB which is one of the best of the series IMO.
  • As a stand-alone, separated from the film which is its object, Barry's TB score is not the best. But no Barry score better amplifies the characteristics of its cinematic associate than this one. The film itself has a distinct undercurrent of mystery and menace--prior to LTK it was also the most violent Bond film ever made--and Barry's score augments those characteristics masterfully. This is a film that would have been much the poorer had Barry not been around.

    PS--I understand the criticisms of the underwater scenes, but personally, I like them. Granted, the retrieval of the bombs from the Vulcan and disguising the aircraft was a bit draggy, but I thought the Battle of Miami was quite marvelous.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    barryt007 wrote:
    I also love the banter between Bond and Q and Bond and Volpe.

    Not many people mention the dialogue and banter throughout TB which is one of the best of the series IMO.

    Indeed, particularly this scene:

    Q :-: "Here's a Perri pistol, it fires a distress signal. You should keep it on you day and night"
    Bond :-: "I resent that remark"


    I can get why people are saying TB is boring. The scene when the frogmen are nailing a net in place is quite tedious. It comes at a crucial time in the movie; the plot is up and running, the Vulcan scene is a treat, and then we come to this. A dozen frogmen nailing a sodding net in place. Young's direction, in this case, exacerbated by being underwater, becomes anal.

    Still, everything before that, and after that, is bloody brilliant. Young is trying to tell a story, and each time I watch TB, it just sweeps me up in it's epicness.





  • Posts: 19,339
    I just 'fast forward' through the frogmen/Vulcan scene, so it's no biggie for me.
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 2,919
    The Vulcan sequence is fine with me--I like being shown how the crime is carried out and covered up. It increases the audience's respect for Spectre's competence (not just a net, but a camouflaged one) and adds plausibility to what was once considered a wildly implausible plot.

    Going back to the main question--is Thunderball overrated? I don't know about this specific forum, but to the general public it's generally regarded as one of the classic Connery Bonds and ranked moderately highly (though back in the Brosnan years Entertainment Weekly ranked TB as #2), with caveat that the underwater scenes drag.

    I don't have much of a problem with the underwater stuff, and I'd rank TB as the third best Connery film, after GF and FRWL. (It's hard to rank DN, which is crude but also the founding father of the series--tie with TB?). It has one of the best fight scenes in the entire series--Bond versus Bouvar (Peter Hunt's cutting at its best), a terrific villainous scheme, Spectre at its finest (the Paris meeting triumphs through Ken Adam's sets and the best, most menacing version of Blofeld), and an epic sense of scale. It's a great adventure and you get your money's worth.

    But it's also a bloated, decadent film that paves the way for the excess of YOLT and DAF. With TB the producers began the gonzo task of trying to top themselves--everything had to be bigger, more expensive, more elephantine, more gadget-laden, more explosive, more sexy. And the strain shows onscreen. TB's script is needlessly overcomplicated. Instead of merely bribing the Vulcan pilot, now he gets a surgically-created twin. New, pointless characters like Paula are allowed to suck up screen-time and lead to unnecessary scenes such as Bond breaking into Largo's house. Perhaps the underwater scenes feel long only because it took so long to get to them!

    Moreover, the film shows the Bond series growing blander as its bloats. Fleming's novel was notable for its characterization, but the film is a disappointment in comparison. Movie Largo is the most boring villain Connery ever faced--a fat old man with an eye patch and no real personality. The original was a sleek scoundrel closer to Bond's age, with the personality of a satyr, a sort of twisted evil version of Bond. And while the film does well with Fiona, it's at the expense of Domino. The original Domino's fiery character was split between Fiona and film-Domino, but the former got all the best parts, and the latter ended up bland in comparison.

    I also miss the book's more desperate version of Largo's death, but I accept that in the mid-60s audiences did not want to see that level of vulnerability from Bond.

    Verdict: a classic Bond, but one already showing signs of the decadence that would overtake the series.
  • Posts: 15,218
    PS--I understand the criticisms of the underwater scenes, but personally, I like them. Granted, the retrieval of the bombs from the Vulcan and disguising the aircraft was a bit draggy, but I thought the Battle of Miami was quite marvelous.

    I never had any problem even with the retrieval of the bombs. It had to be long, we are talking about a slow, carefully carried operation. The long bits of TB, including Shrubland, the underwater scenes, they all bring an atmosphere, a sense of danger, sometimes impending doom and of authenticity. TB is the most believable of the outlandish plots of the series. Far more than GF.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    edited February 2014 Posts: 8,243
    Revelator wrote:
    Verdict: a classic Bond, but one already showing signs of the decadence that would overtake the series.

    I agree with your entire post and this one sentence sums it up beautifully.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    edited February 2014 Posts: 3,157
    barryt007 wrote:
    Walecs wrote:
    Young himself regretted to have directed Thunderball.

    Why did Young regret it ?

    " I really honestly don't know why I did Thunderball. I don't particularly like it. ... It was very successful, but to my mind all that underwater stuff was anti-James Bond, because it was slow motion.
    People swim slowly and you couldn't have them going very fast.
    On the whole, I would say it's not my favourite picture by a long way. It's a very efficient picture, but already the hardware was creeping into the stories. "

    Sources: Licence to Thrill and Screenwriters' Masterclass: Screenwriters talk about their greatest movies
  • Posts: 15,218
    Walecs wrote:
    barryt007 wrote:
    Walecs wrote:
    Young himself regretted to have directed Thunderball.

    Why did Young regret it ?

    " I really honestly don't know why I did Thunderball. I don't particularly like it. ... It was very successful, but to my mind all that underwater stuff was anti-James Bond, because it was slow motion.
    People swim slowly and you couldn't have them going very fast.
    On the whole, I would say it's not my favourite picture by a long way. It's a very efficient picture, but already the hardware was creeping into the stories. "

    Sources: Licence to Thrill and Screenwriters' Masterclass: Screenwriters talk about their greatest movies

    I can understand Young's self-criticism, regardless he still made a strong movie, far more exciting IMO than Goldfinger. Bond may swim a lot, but he is far more active in TB than in GF.
  • SuperheroSithSuperheroSith SE London
    Posts: 578
    This is my least favourite Bond film and I believe it is highly overrated. I just can't find any stand out moments apart from the PTS which was kinda ruined by the jetpack thing for me.
  • Posts: 12,514
    If anything the PTS was underrated; at least the silliness of the jetpack was amusing and not completely horrible. I was very impressed with that scene overall; just a classic, top 10 PTS for me. Again, the movie as a whole is still good, but not great IMO. I personally thought Young's films got progressively weaker (1. DN 2. FRWL 3. TB).
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 4,622
    I maintain that TB of all the Bonds, most lends itself to glorious big-screen presentation, with OHMSS and YOLT respectable seconds and honorable mention to plenty of others.
    I've seen TB twice in the last year and a half, in the big screen digital format. Blew me away both times. It looks and sounds so good on the massive screen. The underwater stuff doesn't drag at all, rather one feels satsifyingly immersed in the film.
    I think all things considered, TB is the best Bond of them all. For pure entertainment enjoyment my favourite will always be DAF, but I do think TB is the best on-screen presenatation of all the Bonds.
    The series peaked with film #4 IMO.
  • timmer wrote:
    I maintain that TB of all the Bonds, most lends itself to glorious big-screen presentation, with OHMSS and YOLT respectable seconds and honorable mention to plenty of others.
    I've seen TB twice in the last year and a half, in the big screen digital format. Blew me away both times. It looks and sounds so good on the massive screen. The underwater stuff doesn't drag at all, rather one feels satsifyingly immersed in the film.
    I think all things considered, TB is the best Bond of them all. For pure entertainment enjoyment my favourite will always be DAF, but I do think TB is the best on-screen presenatation of all the Bonds.
    The series peaked with film #4 IMO.

    Whoa! Stop the presses! You used to be a DAF man in toto.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,249
    I don't think TB is overrated.

    We must never forget that this film was released in '65. Whatever issues people have with the film today usually come from viewing it under the looking glass of the 21st century.
  • Posts: 7,653
    DarthDimi wrote:
    I don't think TB is overrated.

    We must never forget that this film was released in '65. Whatever issues people have with the film today usually come from viewing it under the looking glass of the 21st century.

    My assesment as well.

  • Posts: 11,189
    DarthDimi wrote:
    Whatever issues people have with the film today usually come from viewing it under the looking glass of the 21st century.

    I need to remember this when I criticise DAF.
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 4,622
    Whoa! Stop the presses! You used to be a DAF man in toto.
    Fear not! TB has always vied with YOLT for #2 on my list, but no nothing at all has changed in my Bond world.
    DAF is hands down, slam dunk, my favourite Bond film of all. If I could take only one Bond to the desert island, Tiff, Ernst, Wint, Kidd, Plenty, Willard, Bambi and Thumper, and heavy Sean get the invite, no questions.

    Rather, TB I rate as maybe the most perfectly crafted Bond film of all time.
    I think it is the "best" Bond of all!
    And as I said earlier I think it presents best big-screen, of all the Bond films of epic scale.

    I do make distinction between favourite and best.
    Although even in a best ranking, DAF still cracks top 7 with the other original Connery-Lazenby classics.
    Would just have to really ponder the order.
    Probably for starters: 1:TB 2: FRWL 3: OHMSS.

  • timmer wrote:
    Whoa! Stop the presses! You used to be a DAF man in toto.
    Fear not! TB has always vied with YOLT for #2 on my list, but no nothing at all has changed in my Bond world.
    DAF is hands down, slam dunk, my favourite Bond film of all. If I could take only one Bond to the desert island, Tiff, Ernst, Wint, Kidd, Plenty, Willard, Bambi and Thumper, and heavy Sean get the invite, no questions.

    Rather, TB I rate as maybe the most perfectly crafted Bond film of all time.
    I think it is the "best" Bond of all!
    And as I said earlier I think it presents best big-screen, of all the Bond films of epic scale.

    I do make distinction between favourite and best.
    Although even in a best ranking, DAF still cracks top 7 with the other original Connery-Lazenby classics.
    Would just have to really ponder the order.
    Probably 1.TB 2.FRWL 3.OHMSS.

    Not my fav, but I find it to be the funniest, craziest, Bond ever! Add one fan to the list.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I think we have a variety of opinions about TB on this forum. For me, it was a step down from GF and is not a favorite of mine. I found parts of it boring, including much of the underwater fight, and Connery was not as good as in FRWL or GF (although still good, just a tad less something there ...). Fiona was the best part of the film for me.
  • Posts: 12,514
    My favorite part of TB was the girls; it probably had my favorite lineup of any of the movies' women. Fiona, Domino, and that clinic girl are all very attractive to me.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Walecs wrote:
    barryt007 wrote:
    Walecs wrote:
    Young himself regretted to have directed Thunderball.

    Why did Young regret it ?

    " I really honestly don't know why I did Thunderball. I don't particularly like it. ... It was very successful, but to my mind all that underwater stuff was anti-James Bond, because it was slow motion.
    People swim slowly and you couldn't have them going very fast.
    On the whole, I would say it's not my favourite picture by a long way. It's a very efficient picture, but already the hardware was creeping into the stories. "

    Sources: Licence to Thrill and Screenwriters' Masterclass: Screenwriters talk about their greatest movies

    Thanks for that @Walecs ,i hadnt seen that before.

    :)
  • I dont know why everyone likes thunderball the underwater scenes are so boring the bits on land are ok
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 11,189
    Heard the Johnny Cash version of TB this morning for the first time thanks to @JamesBondRadio. :)) Would have been hilarious if they had used it in the film.

  • edited February 2014 Posts: 20
    Thunderball would have been a great film had time been edited down, the movie just dragged on. Sean Connery, like most of his Bond films had a wonderful performance, for me it would have been one of the best most entertaining films had the movie not dragged on for so long.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    Walecs wrote:
    " I really honestly don't know why I did Thunderball. I don't particularly like it. ... It was very successful, but to my mind all that underwater stuff was anti-James Bond, because it was slow motion.
    People swim slowly and you couldn't have them going very fast.
    On the whole, I would say it's not my favourite picture by a long way. It's a very efficient picture, but already the hardware was creeping into the stories. "

    Sources: Licence to Thrill and Screenwriters' Masterclass: Screenwriters talk about their greatest movies
    How interesting as it kind of mirrored my own thoughts on the subject. Thank you @Walecs for providing the quote. It would have been interesting if Young would have been able to direct TB as the first Bond film on a smaller scale.

    I feel bad that he didn't like the final product though. I can understand where he's coming from but I don't think that he made anything to be ashamed of.
  • Posts: 15,218
    Terence Young was a perfectionist. And I agree with Timmer, TB as an action movie and large scale spectacle may be the best Bond movie ever. Maybe even the best action movie, period. Certainly the most believable and sophisticated.
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