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Let's talk about Spectre's torture scene
I think this scene deserves it's own thread.
Soo....what did we think?
I've seen the film a few times and for me it's really the most unusual sequence in the film. It feels kinda tacked on and a little unwelcome. Firstly, let's start with the staging and camerawork. The actual cinematography and set-design are a little flat. It almost feels like the sequence was hurried together quickly as an afterthought. Also the strange dentist chair felt like it was deliberately trying to be a more high-tech reimagining of the low-fi torture scene in CR. Only this time complete with a dodgy CGI drill.
The surprising thing is that every time I've seen the film people seem to genuinely be squirming in their seats during it. The woman next to me on Friday was covering her mouth and jumping every time the drill went in. Why doesn't this scene have the same impact on me? Is it because it's poorly staged? Or is the issue deeper-seated? Maybe it has something to do with the lack of drama in the plot? Or the film's failure to build Oberhauser up as a credible bad guy by that point?
Also, it feels like a total wasted opportunity to lobotmise James Bond only 2 minutes later to have him completely recover and shoot up Oberhauser's entire lair. This guy just had a drill in his f@*@king brain!!!! He should be mess, it would have been so much more effective to have him make mistakes during that shoot-up (still being competent but maybe passing out and struggling to keep up - Craig's Bond is all about vulnerability after all), it would have allowed Madeline to pick up the pace and actually protect Bond, she should have blown up the compound! She knows how to use a gun and I'm sure her Dad would have taught her a thing or two. It would have increased our emotional attachment to her if she protected Bond.
Additionally, there is probably the most ham-fisted piece of dialogue during the torture scene from Oberhauser when he says something like "the daughter of an assassin, the only one who could understand you" - talk about on the nose. Whatever happened to the subtlety and nuance of SF?
Thoughts?
Soo....what did we think?
I've seen the film a few times and for me it's really the most unusual sequence in the film. It feels kinda tacked on and a little unwelcome. Firstly, let's start with the staging and camerawork. The actual cinematography and set-design are a little flat. It almost feels like the sequence was hurried together quickly as an afterthought. Also the strange dentist chair felt like it was deliberately trying to be a more high-tech reimagining of the low-fi torture scene in CR. Only this time complete with a dodgy CGI drill.
The surprising thing is that every time I've seen the film people seem to genuinely be squirming in their seats during it. The woman next to me on Friday was covering her mouth and jumping every time the drill went in. Why doesn't this scene have the same impact on me? Is it because it's poorly staged? Or is the issue deeper-seated? Maybe it has something to do with the lack of drama in the plot? Or the film's failure to build Oberhauser up as a credible bad guy by that point?
Also, it feels like a total wasted opportunity to lobotmise James Bond only 2 minutes later to have him completely recover and shoot up Oberhauser's entire lair. This guy just had a drill in his f@*@king brain!!!! He should be mess, it would have been so much more effective to have him make mistakes during that shoot-up (still being competent but maybe passing out and struggling to keep up - Craig's Bond is all about vulnerability after all), it would have allowed Madeline to pick up the pace and actually protect Bond, she should have blown up the compound! She knows how to use a gun and I'm sure her Dad would have taught her a thing or two. It would have increased our emotional attachment to her if she protected Bond.
Additionally, there is probably the most ham-fisted piece of dialogue during the torture scene from Oberhauser when he says something like "the daughter of an assassin, the only one who could understand you" - talk about on the nose. Whatever happened to the subtlety and nuance of SF?
Thoughts?
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Comments
When I got home I re-read the torture part of the Colonel Sun book, and was surprised to see the dialogue was lifted directly. The first time they've used none-Fleming movie material so obviously and directly. The words you hear Waltz saying as Bond comes around, are a direct lift.
So yea, I thought it was very well done indeed. My palms were sweating when the second drill started. Eeeuugh!
And the same thing happened in the theater when the drill went in, I noticed quite a few women cringing and squirming but it didn't faze me at all. (I'm female too but I guess I'm just desensitized. XD)
Definitely one of my least favorite scenes of the movie, the quality level of the film felt like it went downhill from there.
For a start it was very clinical, with a white decor, and then with what appeared to be blinding sun rays shining thru' a window. I kept thinking, someone pull the blind down, please!
Something i've noticed on repeat viewing of the film at home..........when Bond is in the room at the beginning, and being tortured, you can clearly see 2 guards standing inside the room, by the door.............but when Bond makes his escape the guards arn't there anymore!
But seriously, it made me fell uncomfortable. Loud effects in cinema made me feel like i was being tortured.
The first shot of that scene reminded me of Bond being treated in CR just after Mr. White kills Le Chiffre, with Vesper being out of focus mirroring the shot of Blofeld talking to Madeleine. One of the many references to the past films, maybe? They were definitely going for the same feel.
For me, it is Waltz's big scene of the film, equivalent to the moment Bardem gets when Bond and Silva meet. I just feel that the material wasn't good enough for Waltz, he could have been so much better. Furthermore, in the December draft a more interesting scene plays out with Oberhauser and Bond playing cards. It would have worked as a direct reference to an event in their childhood when Bond beat him at cards. Plus the main thrust of the sequence from December is the childhood the pair shared. In the final film, it’s almost an afterthought with Waltz saying: “You’re probably wondering why I hate him so much.” YES we are! Mainly because the character of Franz Oberhauser has been so poorly weaved into the fabric of the film leading to this point.
The December scene would have effectively built the tension and animosity between the characters. Plus it would have been a little more atypical of a Bond villain not to embark on another groanworthy torture sequence. (We all know Bond will escape!) This is the stuff SF did well as it bucked the trend and was subversive. It was a film that was bold enough to introduce its villain in a 10 minute dialogue scene with minimal gimmicks. Even the William Tell scene has a lot of brio and chutzpah.
It would seem that Mendes was struggling with this Oberhauser/Bond confrontation scene for months. The initial Solar Furnace idea is totally pants and straight outta some poorly conceived parody film. It would seem someone shoved Colonel Sun under his nose and it was decided that they should just nick the sequence.
IIRC, you also hear a woman's scream that sounds remarkably like Vesper's scream as Bond is about to be tortured in CR.
As for SP's torture scene, it is certainly effective. But is it TOO effective? This sequence is so gruesome and sadistic that I almost think it is too much for a Bond film. This is a Bond film, after all, not Saw. And the crowning touch of malevolence is the drills being positioned in front of Bond's eyes just before 007 breaks loose. So I don't know. Occasionally the directors/producers go overboard (Krest's death in LTK, and the S&M scene with Onatopp/Farrell in GE are other candidates), and this torture scene may have been the latest example of this tendency.
A subtle, if not direct, nod to Colonel Sun, perhaps?
I think the whole point of it WAS to be clinical, almost like a dentists office. It worked REALLY well and actually made the scene even more uncomfortable for me.
Darkness and Light is a theme played through the whole movie.
C tells Bond in M's office about getting the British Intelligence Service from the dark ages into the light (or something like that).
Oberhauser in the dark (Rome) turning his head into the light later
Mexico - bright
Rome - dark
Austria - bright
Train - nighttime
Desert - bright
Dark comet room - bright dentists room
Brightest explosion ever.
London - dark again
End scene - daylight
It's a pattern, and it works perfectly well and makes the movie unique and something special.
I think so. I found it uncomfortable....but not in a good way. I didn't feel that way as Bond was getting his nuts compressed in CR but there was something discomfiting about this one for me.
I once had oral surgery without pain killer (too long a story) so I took this very personally. :((
Craig has been tortured in a lot of films. I recently re-watched Dragon Tattoo - that basement scene with Stellan Skarsgard is another joy to watch.
It's definitely interesting though to hear what some fans consider too far for the Bond franchise. A couple scenes in Skyfall went too far for me: the grotesquery of Silva's deformed face; the absolute, ridiculous crudeness of playing games with and shooting a bound Severine in the head, not to mention her unsettling and all too real for the world of Bond backstory. Anyway, those things bothered me and felt like they didn't belong in the fantastical world of Bond. But I guess on account of my upbringing on the contributions of Gardner (though it sounds like this scene may in fact be directly attributable to Amis), I found SPECTRE's torture scene a breath of fresh air.
Still, its an effective sequence and, like with CR equivalent, the sound editing really makes that scene.
Thanks @Birdleson
They pretty much used it verbatim.
Oh, and @chrisisall - me too! Dental surgery without any pain relief is well, torture! ;-)
I also like that they are willing, apparently, to delve into the continuation novels, if there is good stuff there.
What is interesting about the SP scene is that it seems to directly reference the Rome scene--was the Hinx eye scene added at the same time as the torture scene, or was that already in there? I haven't read the leaked scripts...
@-)
Yes, the scene continues to be disturbing for me...the clinical....medical....dental.....feeling of it all is a bit much actually. I mean, who really likes Hospitals?
I still have problems with the quick recovery, especially given Blofeld tells him something about balance or loss of motor skills or something like that.
I find these two scenes to be the most unsettling in the series. Both scenes are in Sam Mendes films. I'm not sure what that means, if anything.
The SP torture scene does feel tacked on, and it was, as those familiar with the leaked Dec shooting script know.
It's a radical rewrite of a more civil tete-a-tete between Bond and Blofeld, with Swann present, before Bond launches the exploding watch and makes his escape. How this tedious torturescene is an improvement is beyond me.
The torture scene robs us of a DN style Bond and Blofeld dinner scene with girl present.
That's what I was hoping for, but Mendes made such a mess of the actual story, it's as if he couldn't decide how to stage the Blofeld reveal. Unfortunately someone on set, had a copy of Colonel Sun. Cue the rewrite.
And cue the garish blinding light and Blofelds sockless fishbelly white legs and ill-ftting pants practically hiked up to his knees, as added torture bonus.
Very unfortunate, as I thought the Ernst reveal was actually handled quite well. Nice touch with the cat. But it would have worked much better, over a tense dinner scenario, with death for dessert looming over the proceedings.
My main objection though is broader in scope.
Namely, that cinematically especially, Bond should not be subjected to such demeaning torture.
If the filmmakers are going for gritty edgy realism, then they also fail, because in gritty realistic world those who are tortured also die. This type of torture is just a form of sadistic slow execution. So be done with it and kill Bond. Then you've got your realism.
As the learned @perilagukhan suggests, are we watching Saw or Bond?
But in edgy fantasy adventure, which is what Bond is, the needles don't penetrate, just as Goldfinger's encroaching laser never even singed Bond's pants, nor did Stampers torture implements ever graze Bond's actual skin, while in DAF Bond was pulled from certain death by Slumber and Tree, before the crematorium flames even singed his hair.
By all means, position Bond under threat of any manner of heinous death, and knock him around some, but spare us actual helpless strapped to a chair, sadistic torture.
Fleming wrote exactly one torture scene, followed by 13 books of nada. It's not exactly a recurring element in Fleming.
And even Fleming didn't allow Bond the fantasy of escape from such plight.
He allowed that Bond was dead, once the goings got started. Bond was fortuitously rescued. He did not escape the impossible.
Yet one continuation author after another, not to mention later film directors, Tamahori and Mendes, seem determined to get their CR torture bonafides in. Yawn.
Maybe they could take their cue from the 13 books in which Bond is not subjected to helpless torture.
Colonel Sun I find to be a tedious continuation novel at best. Amis's torture sequence is sadistic and twisted in the extreme. Why Mendes felt a need to lift from this better forgotten scene, boggles. Mendes is a strange cat. Amis stranger.
This is just my preference btw, but I believe it to be sound.
Bond is escapist action hero. He doesn't get strapped to a chair and tortured. Rather he manages to escape before such indignities are visited.
If it were 1952 and I could sit down with Sir Ian, I'd say to him, ditch the torture scene in CR.
"I come from the future, where all the lameass imitators that follow you, are going to go hogwild on torturing Bond, as you did, all of one whole time.
"Your acquaintance Amis will write one of the most tedious scenes in all of Bond continuation lit, in one of the dullest most plodding continuation novels ever served up.
"Thank you Sir Timmer.Good advice. I will dispense with that scene entirely, and rework the entire scenario, and scold Mr Amis accordingly.
"May I offer you some of my my fine Jamaican rum?
"Thank you Sir Ian, don't mind if I do.
It's a sort of 'torture porn ' in a way. Gratuitous, and therefore unnecessary imho.
The CF one did not feel that way, because there was a desperate need for LeChiffre to get information and he had to use all means necessary to get it.
It's interesting that you mention that there was supposed to be a 'dinner scene' at Blofeld HQ. I felt this was exactly what that location was calling out for......no dying for.. What a shame that this was replaced with this nonsense. Honestly, this torture scene actually recalled Kingsman for me for some reason,.....and not in a good way.
I would have preferred a 'dinner scene' and a bit of smart/witty dialogue, discussing the family linkages, along with some interesting menu items (like the fried mushrooms of TMWTGG or the sheep's head of OP), which I noted in one of my earlier reviews of this film.
PS: the Blofeld 'mind torture' of Swann (i.e. showing her the video of White dying) was also oddly placed....one after the other these scenes just came out of nowhere and seemed extreme, after offering champagne and acting civilized just a few moments earlier.