The Secrets of Spectre

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  • Posts: 2,918
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Waltz has white hair...

    More like grayish-brown...
    I do not see sign of camp in his mannerism.

    It's all over his line-delivery, which is over-enunciated, effete, and has a very self-satisfied tone, as if he was a naughty boy acting in a Christmas panto. He also overdoes the wide-eyed, eyebrows-arched psycho stare that ham actors use to telegraph villainy. He seems to be playing a villain in quote marks. Fleming's Blofeld started out as no-nonsense crime boss and only later had degenerated into a syphilitic Hitlerian freak-- Waltz leaps straight to freakishness and never portrays a convincing gangster.

    And he has the worst fashion sense of any Blofeld--sockless loafers and a Nehru jacket? Euro-trash!
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    The fact he is sock less is perfect. It's downright disturbing.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Let's stop beating around the bush here - once they heard Waltz had signed they gave up on writing Blofeld as a character and just asked Waltz to do his schtick.

    He's entertaining for sure but he's hardly stretching himself and just does what we all expect of him.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Let's stop beating around the bush here - once they heard Waltz had signed they gave up on writing Blofeld as a character and just asked Waltz to do his schtick.

    He's entertaining for sure but he's hardly stretching himself and just does what we all expect of him.

    To say he's not stretching himself is disingenuous anyway, most actors take on Bond villain roles for the craic. He's no exception and he's suitably theatrical.
  • Posts: 15,123
    Revelator wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Waltz has white hair...

    More like grayish-brown...
    I do not see sign of camp in his mannerism.

    It's all over his line-delivery, which is over-enunciated, effete, and has a very self-satisfied tone, as if he was a naughty boy acting in a Christmas panto. He also overdoes the wide-eyed, eyebrows-arched psycho stare that ham actors use to telegraph villainy. He seems to be playing a villain in quote marks. Fleming's Blofeld started out as no-nonsense crime boss and only later had degenerated into a syphilitic Hitlerian freak-- Waltz leaps straight to freakishness and never portrays a convincing gangster.

    And he has the worst fashion sense of any Blofeld--sockless loafers and a Nehru jacket? Euro-trash!

    Why would he wear socks? He's in bleeding Morocco!

    Fleming wrote Blofeld as a criminal mastermind more than a mere crime boss, a perfect puritan, as disciplined and perfectionist in evil as others are in art. Which is also pictured in Waltz's portrayal. But hey, I forgot, he does not wear socks. My bad. No socks.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    RC7 wrote: »
    Let's stop beating around the bush here - once they heard Waltz had signed they gave up on writing Blofeld as a character and just asked Waltz to do his schtick.

    He's entertaining for sure but he's hardly stretching himself and just does what we all expect of him.

    To say he's not stretching himself is disingenuous anyway, most actors take on Bond villain roles for the craic. He's no exception and he's suitably theatrical.

    I'm not criticising. I enjoyed his performance immensely. I'm glad we attract actors of this calibre and Christoph Waltz doing his thing as a Bond villain was always going to be fantastic fun

  • GettlerGettler USA
    Posts: 326
    Pleasence was just a bit embarrassing for me. His voice and actions didn't live up to the veiled threat we had in the previous films. Waltz, next to Telly, is probably the only one who didn't disappoint.
  • edited December 2015 Posts: 2,918
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Why would he wear socks? He's in bleeding Morocco!
    Fleming wrote Blofeld as a criminal mastermind

    But Bond was wearing socks...
    And if Fleming wrote Blofeld as a master criminal, why does Waltz dress like a douchebag hedge fund manager? I rest my case.
    RC7 wrote: »
    To say he's not stretching himself is disingenuous anyway, most actors take on Bond villain roles for the craic. He's no exception and he's suitably theatrical.

    Putting aside the actors' motivations, the performances of best Bond villains were not overtly theatrical. Joseph Wiseman, Gert Frobe, Lotte Lenya, Robert Shaw, Telly Savalas, Robert Davi, and fill-in-your-own-favorite etc. gave mostly serious performances devoid of flamboyance, mustache-twirling, or camp. True, Javier Bardem could get campy at times (every audience I watched Skyfall with giggled at his reaction when Bond stabbed him in the back) but those were the least effective parts of his performance.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    edited December 2015 Posts: 16,351
    Who gives a crap if Blofeld wasn't wearing damn socks? Really this is something to bellyache over? He's a freaking villain, Villains have weird perks and styles. It's Blofeld re imagined for the 21st century. He wasn't Hans Landa 2.0 for crying out loud. Bond wore socks because he had a suit on. in YOLT (The novel.) He had long hair, straggly mustache and a gold tooth. He can do whatever the hell he wants.
  • Posts: 15,123
    @Revelator: two different people, different dress code. Like @Murdock said he has his own style.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Revelator wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    To say he's not stretching himself is disingenuous anyway, most actors take on Bond villain roles for the craic. He's no exception and he's suitably theatrical.

    Putting aside the actors' motivations, the performances of best Bond villains were not overtly theatrical. Joseph Wiseman, Gert Frobe, Lotte Lenya, Robert Shaw, Telly Savalas, Robert Davi, and fill-in-your-own-favorite etc. gave mostly serious performances devoid of flamboyance, mustache-twirling, or camp. True, Javier Bardem could get campy at times (every audience I watched Skyfall with giggled at his reaction when Bond stabbed him in the back) but those were the least effective parts of his performance.

    Like I said, suitably theatrical, ie. when called for. He projects the gamut of takes on the character within a single performance. The Pohlmann/Dawson version in Rome, the Grey version in Morocco, the Pleasance version in London. I'm a fan of it. Wiseman is also theatrical in my book, when called for, as is Frobe/Collins, plus one of my personal favourites, Walken. For me, Waltz sits neatly in with these top notch performances. As for Bardem getting campy 'at times', his entire performance is ostentatious; lovably so.
  • Posts: 15,123
    Joseph Wiseman as Dr No is very theatrical! He's almost the Wizard of Oz at the beginning! Same with the unseen Blofeld. The improbable deep voice, the cat, the fishes fighting. All theatre. I'd say that the early Blofeld is all theater actually.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Joseph Wiseman as Dr No is very theatrical! He's almost the Wizard of Oz at the beginning! Same with the unseen Blofeld. The improbable deep voice, the cat, the fishes fighting. All theatre. I'd say that the early Blofeld is all theater actually.

    Precisely.
  • Posts: 2,918
    Murdock wrote: »
    Who gives a crap if Blofeld wasn't wearing damn socks? Really this is something to bellyache over? He's a freaking villain, Villains have weird perks and styles.

    My original complaint was tongue-in-cheek, but if we're going to take it seriously I'll say this: the problem is that Blofeld doesn't have a a weird perk or style. Instead he dresses like a Eurotrash financier. Not a good look for a villain, especially one we're supposed to take seriously. Even small details count.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Joseph Wiseman as Dr No is very theatrical! He's almost the Wizard of Oz at the beginning! Same with the unseen Blofeld. The improbable deep voice, the cat, the fishes fighting. All theatre. I'd say that the early Blofeld is all theater actually.

    No. I'm talking about theatricality of performance, not props. Wiseman actually underplays, very effectively, whereas Waltz overacts by over-elaborating his line delivery. The unseen Blofeld of FRWL/TB is also underplayed--he might speak in an improbably deep voice, but it's a near-monotone that projects calmness. Contrary to RC7, Frobe/Collins also gives an understated performance. Most good Bond villains do. They don't need to remind the audience that they're very naughty and villainous, which is what Waltz does. His Blofeld has nothing to do with Fleming, and not much to do with the earlier screen Blofelds either, aside from Gray's campfest. Blofeld is supposed to be a no-nonsense supervillain--making him Bond's resentful stepbrother cuts the character down to size, and Waltz's performance drives the final nail in the coffin. He makes me wish Spectre had used someone else as the villain.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Revelator wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Who gives a crap if Blofeld wasn't wearing damn socks? Really this is something to bellyache over? He's a freaking villain, Villains have weird perks and styles.

    My original complaint was tongue-in-cheek, but if we're going to take it seriously I'll say this: the problem is that Blofeld doesn't have a a weird perk or style. Instead he dresses like a Eurotrash financier. Not a good look for a villain, especially one we're supposed to take seriously. Even small details count.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Joseph Wiseman as Dr No is very theatrical! He's almost the Wizard of Oz at the beginning! Same with the unseen Blofeld. The improbable deep voice, the cat, the fishes fighting. All theatre. I'd say that the early Blofeld is all theater actually.

    No. I'm talking about theatricality of performance, not props. Wiseman actually underplays, very effectively, whereas Waltz overacts by over-elaborating his line delivery. The unseen Blofeld of FRWL/TB is also underplayed--he might speak in an improbably deep voice, but it's a near-monotone that projects calmness. Contrary to RC7, Frobe/Collins also gives an understated performance. Most good Bond villains do. They don't need to remind the audience that they're very naughty and villainous, which is what Waltz does. His Blofeld has nothing to do with Fleming, and not much to do with the earlier screen Blofelds either, aside from Gray's campfest. Blofeld is supposed to be a no-nonsense supervillain--making him Bond's resentful stepbrother cuts the character down to size, and Waltz's performance drives the final nail in the coffin. He makes me wish Spectre had used someone else as the villain.

    I disagree, but then it is all a matter of taste.
  • Posts: 15,123
    Eurotrash? Really? Define what you understand by it.

    There are different ways to be theatrical. Wiseman when he is unseen is very much theatrical. So is Frobe when Goldfinger explains Operation Grand Slam. Waltz by comparison is actually far more neutral overall. I wouldn't say that he is pure Fleming's Blofeld all the time but he is at least in some aspects. His introduction is suitably sinister and the glance he gives to Bond and Madeleine when he's captured is pure nastiness.

    And tongue-in-cheek for tongue-in-cheek : at least Waltz does not smoke. Or as far as we know drink.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Eurotrash? Really? Define what you understand by it.

    There are different ways to be theatrical. Wiseman when he is unseen is very much theatrical. So is Frobe when Goldfinger explains Operation Grand Slam. Waltz by comparison is actually far more neutral overall. I wouldn't say that he is pure Fleming's Blofeld all the time but he is at least in some aspects. His introduction is suitably sinister and the glance he gives to Bond and Madeleine when he's captured is pure nastiness.

    And tongue-in-cheek for tongue-in-cheek : at least Waltz does not smoke. Or as far as we know drink.

    Haterz gonna hate @Ludovico.
  • Aziz_FekkeshAziz_Fekkesh Royale-les-Eaux
    Posts: 403
    Blofeld has always been a series of gimmicks. That people are only now complaining that Waltz is just being Waltz is a higher form of absurdity and hypocrisy. Never cared for Pleasence Blofeld. I really don't see why this character is played up as the best villain when he really never had any personality beyond being EVIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLL. The cat, scar, and nehru are memorable, sure, but menacing? Waltz's at least has a resentment for Bond that is really one sided. Dr. No, Goldfinger, Grant, Klebb, Sanchez, Trevelyan, Le Chiffre, hell, Largo are all far superior villains than Blofeld ever was.
  • edited December 2015 Posts: 15,123
    Blofeld has always been a series of gimmicks. That people are only now complaining that Waltz is just being Waltz is a higher form of absurdity and hypocrisy. Never cared for Pleasence Blofeld. I really don't see why this character is played up as the best villain when he really never had any personality beyond being EVIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLL. The cat, scar, and nehru are memorable, sure, but menacing? Waltz's at least has a resentment for Bond that is really one sided. Dr. No, Goldfinger, Grant, Klebb, Sanchez, Trevelyan, Le Chiffre, hell, Largo are all far superior villains than Blofeld ever was.

    I'd have to disagree with some of what you said: Blofeld IS the best villain. At least in the novels. He truly is Bond's Moriarty. In the movies, he's been hit (FRWL) and miss (DAF). Too often he was just a series of gimmicks and tropes. There is still this in SP and for the record I was against bringing the cat and the scar, but I am satisfied the way they used the tropes (I was happily surprised with the scar). And yes, they give a background to Blofeld. Maybe not the one I wanted ideally, but it does give Blofeld some motivations.
    RC7 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Eurotrash? Really? Define what you understand by it.

    There are different ways to be theatrical. Wiseman when he is unseen is very much theatrical. So is Frobe when Goldfinger explains Operation Grand Slam. Waltz by comparison is actually far more neutral overall. I wouldn't say that he is pure Fleming's Blofeld all the time but he is at least in some aspects. His introduction is suitably sinister and the glance he gives to Bond and Madeleine when he's captured is pure nastiness.

    And tongue-in-cheek for tongue-in-cheek : at least Waltz does not smoke. Or as far as we know drink.

    Haterz gonna hate @Ludovico.

    But where's the love?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Blofeld has always been a series of gimmicks. That people are only now complaining that Waltz is just being Waltz is a higher form of absurdity and hypocrisy. Never cared for Pleasence Blofeld. I really don't see why this character is played up as the best villain when he really never had any personality beyond being EVIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLL. The cat, scar, and nehru are memorable, sure, but menacing? Waltz's at least has a resentment for Bond that is really one sided. Dr. No, Goldfinger, Grant, Klebb, Sanchez, Trevelyan, Le Chiffre, hell, Largo are all far superior villains than Blofeld ever was.
    I agree with you, at least as far as the films go. All the villains you noted are more interesting than the visible Blofelds that I've seen on film (including the latest) imho, although I'd put the early faceless ones up there with the best on screen Bond baddies.

    RE: Waltz - I thought he underplayed actually - except for when he did his little 'Landa' turn at the MI6 HQ when he set the timer. He just didn't seem all that menacing to me however, perhaps because I just know him so well from his iconic Oscar winning Tarantino turns - not sure. I would have personally preferred someone a little more menacing physically, and a little more imposing, with a deeper voice.
  • Posts: 5,767
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    Yeah it's worrying that so many awful ideas were able to even make it to scriptwriting stage. They've had two similar situations in recent years - they got Peter Morgan who wrote a script which was rejecte bar the main hook, and Paul Haggis' script for QoS involving Bond on the trail of Vesper's child which was rejected. And then all the awful ideas of Blofeld being an African dictator, a woman etc. I really feel that they need to meet with a writer first and sense what their ideas are/give them some boundaries to work within before letting a writer loose to write something that ultimately is going to get rejected/ cause issues further down the line with rewrites because the third act isn't up to scratch. Screenplays always get rewritten, indeed often screenwriters just do rewrites of other people's script, but I'm a bit surprised at the level of chaos in preproduction of Spectre - especially as it was evident that they had similar issues in getting the script right for Skyfall.
    It´s a bit strange really. Shouldn´t the writer usually first hand in a treatment? Some kind of outline upon which to base the script? Major corner stones such as what kind of person is Blofeld I would expect to be decided upon at that stage, before anyone writes drafts?



    RC7 wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    awful ideas of Blofeld being an African dictator.
    It was still better than what we got - Blofeld and Bond knowing each other when they were kids.

    But the Blofled of SP resembles Fleming's incarnation sans the childhood link. Creating an African Dictator means you are essentially just using the name. I don't get how that's better.
    How do you know? It all depends on what kind of person he would be. As long as he has the character of Blofeld, what does it matter if he´s from Africa or Holland?




    Wait a minute, why aren´t we discussing this in the thread about Logan´s drafts???
    http://www.mi6community.com/index.php?p=/discussion/14103/looking-through-john-logan-s-script-for-spectre#latest

  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Looks quite similar to me.
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  • RC7 wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    To say he's not stretching himself is disingenuous anyway, most actors take on Bond villain roles for the craic. He's no exception and he's suitably theatrical.

    Putting aside the actors' motivations, the performances of best Bond villains were not overtly theatrical. Joseph Wiseman, Gert Frobe, Lotte Lenya, Robert Shaw, Telly Savalas, Robert Davi, and fill-in-your-own-favorite etc. gave mostly serious performances devoid of flamboyance, mustache-twirling, or camp. True, Javier Bardem could get campy at times (every audience I watched Skyfall with giggled at his reaction when Bond stabbed him in the back) but those were the least effective parts of his performance.

    Like I said, suitably theatrical, ie. when called for. He projects the gamut of takes on the character within a single performance. The Pohlmann/Dawson version in Rome, the Grey version in Morocco, the Pleasance version in London. I'm a fan of it. Wiseman is also theatrical in my book, when called for, as is Frobe/Collins, plus one of my personal favourites, Walken. For me, Waltz sits neatly in with these top notch performances. As for Bardem getting campy 'at times', his entire performance is ostentatious; lovably so.

    Max Zorin is also my favorite (very menacing), and I doubt if the outlook of Silva is a homage to AVTAK.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    boldfinger wrote: »
    How do you know? It all depends on what kind of person he would be. As long as he has the character of Blofeld, what does it matter if he´s from Africa or Holland.

    Personally I'd prefer he was European, but that isn't the problem here. The key word is 'dictator', African or Dutch it doesn't matter. A man who runs a clandestine organisation the like of Spectre shouldn't simultaneously be seen as a public figure in the mould of an African warlord. So when you say, 'as long as he has the character' that is immediately sullied the moment he becomes an active and visible political figure. It moves the character so far away from source that you might as well abandon the concept completely and start afresh, which was obviously their thinking too. As grating as the childhood link may be for some people, the man, his business, the way he operates is an updated, but pretty faithful combination of the Fleming original, with hints of the cinematic.
  • Posts: 2,918
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Eurotrash? Really? Define what you understand by it.

    Urbandictionary has supplied a definition close to mine:
    A human sub-phylum characterized by its apparent affluence, worldliness, social affectation and addiction to fashion. Males are characterized by a semi-slovenly appearance (including half-shaven faces), greasy hair, rib-hugging shirts, tight jeans and loafers worn without socks.

    True, Blofeld has yet to appear half-shaven or in jeans, but wait till the next film! I'll treat the Nehru jacket as Waltz-Blofeld indulging his retro hipster side.
    There are different ways to be theatrical. Wiseman when he is unseen is very much theatrical.

    No, you're referring to character's presentation, not his performance, which is always low-key.
    So is Frobe when Goldfinger explains Operation Grand Slam.

    Only when he starts getting passionate about gold and about committing the ultimate crime, and that's warranted by the character's obsessions. The fact that Frobe/Collins is otherwise restrained gives the scene even greater dramatic effect.
    Murdock wrote: »
    Looks quite similar to me.

    Aside from the awful Nehru jacket and Waltz's inane mugging perhaps. I've never been fond of Almond's proficient but lumpily ugly artwork. Waltz's hair is neither white nor longish, and neither Waltz nor Almond's Blofeld have eyes that are "rather frightening dark-green pools."
  • Posts: 5,767
    RC7 wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    How do you know? It all depends on what kind of person he would be. As long as he has the character of Blofeld, what does it matter if he´s from Africa or Holland.

    Personally I'd prefer he was European, but that isn't the problem here. The key word is 'dictator', African or Dutch it doesn't matter. A man who runs a clandestine organisation the like of Spectre shouldn't simultaneously be seen as a public figure in the mould of an African warlord. So when you say, 'as long as he has the character' that is immediately sullied the moment he becomes an active and visible political figure. It moves the character so far away from source that you might as well abandon the concept completely and start afresh, which was obviously their thinking too. As grating as the childhood link may be for some people, the man, his business, the way he operates is an updated, but pretty faithful combination of the Fleming original, with hints of the cinematic.
    Fook Mi, you´re right! I was so overwhelmed by all those draft revelations that I completely overlooked the fact that warlords are kind of public figures, and Blofeld of course is the opposite.

  • Posts: 5,767
    Revelator wrote: »
    Waltz's hair is neither white nor longish, and neither Waltz nor Almond's Blofeld have eyes that are "rather frightening dark-green pools."
    Waltz can very nicely switch from a rather foppish expression to mean, threatening eyes, he does that in SP too. But like most of his talents, this one too is used to little effect in SP. If it is true that Mendes wanted to quit at some point during the writing process, I could well imagine something similar happened during shooting. The film certainly gives me the impression that the third act didn´t have much steam left. NSNA gives me a similar impression, however there I guess they were simply running out of money and didn´t have the financial resources anymore to build a proper climax for the film, because they had spent all the money on the law suit. In SP it looks as if a sh**load of money were available, but no true inspiration anymore.

  • Posts: 15,123
    @Revelator the only thing that fits this definition of Eurotrash is the lack of socks. Hardly enough to qualify. As for the Nehru suit I can't say that's hipster or Eurotrash. It's a bleeding Nehru suit!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Blofeld is Eurotrash?

    So that is why Spectre was so well received in Europe, and not in North America.
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