The Next American President Thread (2016)

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  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Trump was doing what to him ? :D
  • Posts: 12,526
    Lol!!!! :)) Not what your thinking my friend!
  • Posts: 1,631
    bondjames wrote: »
    The Trump shtick will have to change. If he can't change it then he will lose. It's as simple as that.

    I found the Romney attack terribly weak to be honest. Everyone knows, or at least should know, these issues about Trump. In fact, Rubio has mentioned some of this already, when he's not commenting on small hands and wet pants. I think Romney should have taken the high road and talked cleanly about conservative principles rather than talking about 'fraud' and 'phony'. That is just going to antagonize Trump voters. He could have 'done an Obama' and gone statesman-like. That's what I would have done.

    His speech will be used against Trump tonight. Romney has given them their talking points. Let's see if they can derail the wagon.

    The problem is that a lot of the people don't know that about Trump. Those of us here do, but for the most part I'd say the discussion that's been going on in this thread (which has, amazingly stayed amicable and level-headed for the most part, a first for political discussion on an internet forum, certainly a Bond-related one) has been much more informed than what you'd get talking to the average Joe on the street.

    It also was just a good symbolic gesture by Romney for those who are anti-Trump. There hasn't been a central figure to rally around in the wake of Trump's march through the Republican party, and Reince Priebus hasn't offered any leadership, nor have Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell, the highest-ranking party officials currently in government.

    So, for better or worse, the last Republican nominee, who in some ways can still be considered the leader or standard bearer for the party until a new nominee is chosen, decided to step up and give some cover to those running against Trump as well as give the 65% of those opposed to Trump a central figure to rally around, at least for a moment. He also could give others at least a reason to pause and re-examine.

    Up to this point, it's really just been the media (which Republican voters generally distrust) and the other candidates taking shots at Trump, often with obvious personal political goals fueling them. Romney offers a voice for the dissent that isn't directly tied to getting votes funneled into his camp, so that may saw some people. Even if it only sways a handful, then I'd say his doing what he did was worth it.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2016 Posts: 23,883
    dalton wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    The Trump shtick will have to change. If he can't change it then he will lose. It's as simple as that.

    I found the Romney attack terribly weak to be honest. Everyone knows, or at least should know, these issues about Trump. In fact, Rubio has mentioned some of this already, when he's not commenting on small hands and wet pants. I think Romney should have taken the high road and talked cleanly about conservative principles rather than talking about 'fraud' and 'phony'. That is just going to antagonize Trump voters. He could have 'done an Obama' and gone statesman-like. That's what I would have done.

    His speech will be used against Trump tonight. Romney has given them their talking points. Let's see if they can derail the wagon.

    The problem is that a lot of the people don't know that about Trump. Those of us here do, but for the most part I'd say the discussion that's been going on in this thread (which has, amazingly stayed amicable and level-headed for the most part, a first for political discussion on an internet forum, certainly a Bond-related one) has been much more informed than what you'd get talking to the average Joe on the street.

    It also was just a good symbolic gesture by Romney for those who are anti-Trump. There hasn't been a central figure to rally around in the wake of Trump's march through the Republican party, and Reince Priebus hasn't offered any leadership, nor have Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell, the highest-ranking party officials currently in government.

    So, for better or worse, the last Republican nominee, who in some ways can still be considered the leader or standard bearer for the party until a new nominee is chosen, decided to step up and give some cover to those running against Trump as well as give the 65% of those opposed to Trump a central figure to rally around, at least for a moment. He also could give others at least a reason to pause and re-examine.

    Up to this point, it's really just been the media (which Republican voters generally distrust) and the other candidates taking shots at Trump, often with obvious personal political goals fueling them. Romney offers a voice for the dissent that isn't directly tied to getting votes funneled into his camp, so that may saw some people. Even if it only sways a handful, then I'd say his doing what he did was worth it.
    Fair points. I don't really think it's going to do a lot of good because Romney is not a standard bearer for many. I believe many voted for him reluctantly in 2012.

    What will work though most likely are the massive $$ that is going to be spent in key states on attack ads against Trump. My understanding is that the Koch's will not try to take him down, but there are others who will throw the kitchen sink at him over the next two weeks.

    I'm really curious to see if and whether he can withstand this barrage. It will be a real test of his character, temperament, and the strength of his support.

    I would like to see him step up and and earn the following he has garnered. Mature into a better, more polished candidate. Grow up basically.

    If he can't, then it's best that he is vanquished, but only later in the campaign imho, after he has done more damage to the establishment money (let them spend away, the rich 'f's).
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    bondjames wrote: »
    after he has done more damage to the establishment money (let them spend away, the rich 'f's).
    make_it_so.jpg
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited March 2016 Posts: 12,480
    The thing about Trump now is that what he has been doing has continued to work for him, no matter what. Those citizens who are for him (in general) like his "tell it like it is" non-PC "straight talk". They like his bluster and bullying. They eat up his soundbites and are feeling good saying they don't care what everybody else thinks of Trump - he is a breath of fresh air. Trump is shrewd enough to not change much in that regard. Why should he?

    Unless there is a smoking gun (oh, Felix Leiter & James Bond we need you in the U.S. right now!!) ... I don't see him changing his attitude or words much at all, nor do I think will many people change their support for him. Does he need to show detailed plans for any of his ideas? Explain specifically his ideas for foreign policy? ETC. No. They just don't care - he is different, talks tough, let's give him a chance because we are so fed up with "regular" politicians and the system (and because it has snowballed - everybody jumps on the bandwagon and stays on the bandwagon without a lot of in depth thinking). So why on earth would he change much at all?

    It will be interesting, and no doubt continue to be entertaining to a certain degree, whatever develops over the next few months. I hope that smoking gun is found. Because almost anything that comes out of Trump's mouth - no matter how racist, ignorant, disrespectful to our own country or others - does not matter to many, so it seems. Lack of experience does not matter. So is there a smoking gun? Something big enough to stop his supporters in their tracks now? I don't know.
  • Posts: 110
    FLeiter wrote: »
    FLeiter wrote: »
    You have to wonder what non-USA citizens must think now. You have one party that wants to: build a wall to keep out non-whites, encourage buying as many guns as your bunker will hold, tell women when they can have children, tell people who they can love, believe that climate change isn't proven and restrict voting rights of minorities.

    You have candidates who promise to bomb and slaughter people all over the world. But when they had the opportunity to actually join the military and stand a post, they had better things to do. Trump, Rubio, Cruz, Kasich and Carson have as much military experience as your basic house plant. We call them chicken-hawks.

    And then there's the other side.

    Oh please! Again with the fallacy that republicans and conservatives want to keep non-whites out of this country! First of all, several republicans signed on to the Gang of Eight bill that gave illegals amnesty, so right there your statement doesn't hold water. Second, regarding Trump who is against amnesty, he is against illegal immigrants coming in here. He has no problem bringing in non-white immigrants who are hard workers, will benefit the U.S. economy, and who come in here legally.

    What part of the word illegal do you not understand?!

    Was that the Gang of Eight bill that was never voted on, never passed and that Marco Rubio flipped on? It was stopped by House Republicans. Don't confuse activity with accomplishment.

    As to Donald Trump(a serial adulterer) and the undocumented aliens issue. He has no problem hiring undocumented workers to work on his current Old Post Office project in Washington. But some prefer not to look in mirrors before they speak.

    Well he's hiring them, he's not saying they could stay here permanently. Obviously a little hypocritical on his part.

    The Gang of Eight, maybe it was never voted on, but it was obvious a lot of Republicans were for it. Otherwise you would not see the concerted effort by the establishment Republicans to get Trump out.
  • Posts: 110
    dalton wrote: »
    If you go back and read the post I was responding to, you'd see you're taking me out of context with the "wounds" point.

    And, to your point, yes, we do have a problem with border security. Between 1981 and 2008, we had 20 years of Republican leadership in the White House. Did anything get done about border security then? No, I don't think that it did. The "wounds" comment was about how the Republicans feel about the Democrats under Obama. Obama is not the reason that we don't have border security. Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, Bush Jr., and Obama are part of the reason we don't have border security. The bigger reasons are both the Democrats and the Republicans. So, yes, the "wounds" are imaginary as they relate to the Republicans' feelings towards the Democrats. It's not the Democrats fault that we don't have border security. It's both side's fault, and it's not a new phenomenon that happened in the last eight years, which is what the "wounds" comment I was responding to was about, not the issue of border security.

    Good points regarding the "wounds" comment. I get what you are saying. But again, this is why Trump is so popular by many Republicans, and a fair amount of Democrats and independents too. Because he is different and he wants to shake things up on both sides.

  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    dalton wrote: »
    If you go back and read the post I was responding to, you'd see you're taking me out of context with the "wounds" point.

    And, to your point, yes, we do have a problem with border security. Between 1981 and 2008, we had 20 years of Republican leadership in the White House. Did anything get done about border security then? No, I don't think that it did. The "wounds" comment was about how the Republicans feel about the Democrats under Obama. Obama is not the reason that we don't have border security. Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, Bush Jr., and Obama are part of the reason we don't have border security. The bigger reasons are both the Democrats and the Republicans. So, yes, the "wounds" are imaginary as they relate to the Republicans' feelings towards the Democrats. It's not the Democrats fault that we don't have border security. It's both side's fault, and it's not a new phenomenon that happened in the last eight years, which is what the "wounds" comment I was responding to was about, not the issue of border security.

    Good points regarding the "wounds" comment. I get what you are saying. But again, this is why Trump is so popular by many Republicans, and a fair amount of Democrats and independents too. Because he is different and he wants to shake things up on both sides.

    It would take over four years and at least $10B to construct such a wall. And it wouldn't even work to stop immigration.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    Trump's a super freak, a super freak (he's super-freakin').
  • Posts: 1,631
    The behavior of both Trump and Rubio in this debate has been disgusting. It's hard to make Ted Cruz look presidential, but those two are succeeding in that effort.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited March 2016 Posts: 12,480
    thanks, @chrisisall - cos now I want to get up & dance to that!!

    As an aside; I am following the debate with the live commentary by New York Times (I cannot watch the debate). Here is a recent comment (not the public, one of the assigned NY Times folks covering this):

    Maggie Haberman

    This is not a good debate for Trump. That having been said, it has never mattered before.


    Bingo.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Interesting. I'm actually watching it. Quite nasty attacks against him from both sides, but he's holding his own quite well I think.

    Haberman was on Charlie Rose yesterday. Interesting discussion there on the Trump phenomenon.
  • edited March 2016 Posts: 1,631

    This is not a good debate for Trump. That having been said, it has never mattered before.

    The last debate saw Trump's numbers go down a little bit, as he was projected to win more states than he ultimately did on Super Tuesday. This debate has been even worse for him, so there's reason to believe that these issues are starting to stick to him. That said, it still might be too late.

    But, the only two people who come off well in this debate are John Kasich and Ted Cruz (as much as it pains me to say that). Marco Rubio and Trump should be disqualified based on their behavior tonight. This is a debate for President of the United States, not the a kindergarten playground fight that this has devolved into between Marco Rubio and Donald Trump. That those two men can act like this while running for the highest office in the land and then turn around and ask me to vote for them just makes me want to vomit.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Kasich at least provides a contrast. Bless him.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    The only people who come off well in a debate are those who are not attacked. In this debate that is Cruz and Kasich. That's why they look good relatively speaking tonight. If anyone bothered about Kasich and took it too him it would get ugly fast there too. Same goes for Cruz..

    Essentially the moderators allow questions and back and forth to escalate when what they should do when candidates get off track is shut off the mic. Very simple policy to implement but then no one would show up.
  • Posts: 1,631
    I'm aware of that, but they're both acting like little children. They're only getting most of the attacks because they keep talking over each other, forcing the moderators to go back to them one at a time because they keep bickering like school children. If they could behave like the adults that they are, then the debate could get back on track, but they'd just rather talk over each other because they think it makes them look "tough". No, it makes them look childish.
  • Posts: 110
    TripAces wrote: »
    1. The borders are not any more or less enforced now than they have been for decades. So why, all of a sudden, are the cons having panic attack over this? It's called "perception" and not reality. This is the problem with Republicans: they operate on a perception and not a reality. Take...

    2. Defense as another example. The U.S. spends more on defense than the next ten industrialized nations COMBINED. And yet...it's not enough. Of course, problem is, as is always the case with Republicans, they don't have the sense to realize that paradigms have shifted and that trying to fight a "method of warfare" is not the same as fighting an actual country. So all of that "spending" in Iraq and Afghanistan got us NOWHERE. You can't fight "terrorism" with bombs. But that's a whole other matter. Point is, almsot every expert on Middle East politics said that toppling Huessein was only going to create instability in the region. Guess what? It did just that. We are already paying a steep steep steep price for "defense." We don't need to spend more. The only reason to do so is to line the pockets of defense contractors. Who then take that money and use it to further influence politicians.

    3. Legalize drugs. You do have to worry about drug dealers.

    4. Instead, cut defense spending and put it into infrastructure. This creates jobs and does so for the betterment of everyone. Roads. Bridges. The grid. Also: high speed rail, new technologies, solar energy. The list goes on. The U.S. has (had?) an opportunity to lead the way on new forms of power and mass transit and sh*t the bed because Conservatives are slaves to big oil. We were once the leaders: from the automobile to air travel to putting a man on the moon. Now? The neo cons' lack of vision (and lack of knowledge of science) will ultimately destroy us.

    5. You can't pump billions into defense without paying for it. GW CUT taxes and waged war at the same time...and what happened? In reality, what Repubs want is to line the pockets of the wealthy on phony "we need to increase defense spending" claims and steal through taxes on the middle and lower classes. Furthermore, you can't wage wars without also willing to spend money to nurse and help our vets afterward. The Repubs call themselves "patriots" and then dump on the men and women who sacrifice their health for the "cause" the Repubs want. It's simply comical.

    I'll answer each point.

    1. I have to respectably disagree with you on this one. The world is a lot more dangerous now with far more radical Islamic terrorists than we saw before 9/11. Or at the very least, more now willing to act. The borders need to be enforced better, whether with a wall or not. I don't think many people would disagree with that.

    2. Military spending has been cut quite a bit under Obama, and a lot of equipment is outdated. That said though, we can debate on the numbers. We still have a strong military, but it needs to be maintained. Regarding method of warfare, see some of my previous posts. Nation building won't cut it, and maybe bombing won't completely stop the problem. But selected quick strikes would help. If we know exactly who is supplying the weapons, where the training camps are, where the weapons are stored, etc., then some strategic quick strikes would work. And again, no nation building, and no more neocons. Again, this is one of the appeals of trump. If he fails, then someone else will be voted in, but no reason not to try a different route this time.

    3. Not sure I want to legalize drugs as this can be tempting to those who are not on drugs but can't afford them, but at the very least, no more jailing those who are addicted to drugs. There's not enough room in the jails, and like you said, we need to concentrate on the drug dealers, including tightening the borders so they don't sneak in here.

    4. Great points, but again, we would have to debate the number. I don't want cutting the military at the expense of our defense. But there is, like in any government agency, places to cut a lot of waste.

    5. Again, good reasons why Trump is popular. He is not part of the Republican establishment, and has been on record many times that he would support our vets. I don't by this argument that the Republicans are a party of the rich as they attempt to lower taxes on the middle and lower classes, but these cuts tend to get blocked by the Democrats a lot. And yes, small businesses need taxes to be cut so they can survive. Large corporations on the other hand need to make sure that they pay their taxes, especially the ones that get away with not paying anything. That said, they need to be low enough to be competitive with other world nations so companies don't continue leaving the U.S. to take advantage of lower taxes in Europe and Mexico (as examples) and taking all of their jobs with them.
  • Posts: 110
    bondjames wrote: »
    Trump wants strong defense combined with smart defense spending (he is the only one who has spoken about waste in defense spending actually - not Hillary and certainly not any other repub candidate). He wants infrastructure (he has been going on about it for some time now) and he wants secure borders (as we know).

    I don't see anything wrong with any of that. Just because the borders haven't been secure to date doesn't mean they shouldn't be secure. That's just common sense.

    Excellent! Well said! It's all about how Trump wants to solve these problems rather than just saying we have these problems in the first place.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    The reason they look childish is because of the debate mechanism itself. 30 second rebuttal. What nonsense is that. If you want a substantive rebuttal to an allegation you need more than 30 seconds. It's the stupid process that makes a shambles out of it when it gets heated. There is an opportunity for a dirty low punch but not enough time for a counterpunch. These debates only really work when it's two people. There are still too many on that stage.
  • Posts: 1,631
    It's not a function of the debate mechanics. They've managed to be much more dignified than this in debates that featured many more candidates than we currently have where they all got less time. They've also managed to be more civilized as the numbers winnowed and they were still stuck with the same small amount of time.

    Thirty second rebuttals don't lead to name calling. Immaturity and childishness leads to that. Thirty second rebuttals don't lead to shouting over each other, even when told to stop. And if they don't like the rules, then they don't have to agree with them. Those rules are agreed upon by the campaigns beforehand. If they don't like it, reshape the rules. This debate is so far beneath the office that they seek to be elected to.
  • Posts: 110
    TripAces wrote: »

    It would take over four years and at least $10B to construct such a wall. And it wouldn't even work to stop immigration.

    Good. Then it's time to get to work on it.

    To clarify though, he needs to take as much time to get this done as is needed. And the $10B he said himself that will be needed can be taken from the $58B trade imbalance we have with Mexico. I know Trump is a great negotiator, but even he will need some luck to pull that off. But if there is one person who can do it, it would be him.

    Now you don't know for sure that it wouldn't stop (and please use the correct term) illegal immigration. A wall that is built high enough will at the very least severely limit illegals from coming into this country, and especially the drug dealers and terrorists. Israel built a wall, and it has severely deterred the suicide bombers and other terrorists from coming into their country. That's a good thing, and I don't know why people have such an objection to walls.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    dalton wrote: »
    . This debate is so far beneath the office that they seek to be elected to.
    Yep.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2016 Posts: 23,883
    That's because there isn't enough fact checking and stopping of incorrect attack statements by the candidates on the spot normally. So they get to go on spouting nonsense. If an attack is made, then I believe that candidates must have enough time to respond. In earlier debates the stakes weren't as high, so of course things wouldn't be as heated.

    The process is not well run.

    Having said that, this debate is actually pretty substantive and I think all the candidates are doing a reasonable job up there. The attacks are part of the normal process.
  • Posts: 1,631
    bondjames wrote: »
    That's because there isn't enough fact checking and stopping of incorrect attack statements by the candidates on the spot normally. So they get to go on spouting nonsense. If an attack is made, then I believe that candidates must have enough time to respond. In earlier debates the stakes weren't as high, so of course things wouldn't be as heated.

    The process is not well run.

    Having said that, this debate is actually pretty substantive and I think all the candidates are doing a reasonable job up there. The attacks are part of the normal process.

    They have been stopping the candidates when they've said incorrect things. Megyn Kelly stopped Trump several times when he tried to lie his way over top of her.

    Not having more than thirty seconds doesn't automatically lead to hurling insults at each other. My not having more than thirty seconds to do something doesn't automatically lead to me calling my opponent "little" or a "con man".

    There have been flashes of substance in this debate, and thankfully it seems to have settled down at this point, but the opening hour theatrics between Marco Rubio and Donald Trump. It takes a great deal of effort to make Ted Cruz look like the reasonable one on a stage. They've managed that tonight.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    dalton wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    That's because there isn't enough fact checking and stopping of incorrect attack statements by the candidates on the spot normally. So they get to go on spouting nonsense. If an attack is made, then I believe that candidates must have enough time to respond. In earlier debates the stakes weren't as high, so of course things wouldn't be as heated.

    The process is not well run.

    Having said that, this debate is actually pretty substantive and I think all the candidates are doing a reasonable job up there. The attacks are part of the normal process.

    They have been stopping the candidates when they've said incorrect things. Megyn Kelly stopped Trump several times when he tried to lie his way over top of her.

    Not having more than thirty seconds doesn't automatically lead to hurling insults at each other. My not having more than thirty seconds to do something doesn't automatically lead to me calling my opponent "little" or a "con man".

    There have been flashes of substance in this debate, and thankfully it seems to have settled down at this point, but the opening hour theatrics between Marco Rubio and Donald Trump. It takes a great deal of effort to make Ted Cruz look like the reasonable one on a stage. They've managed that tonight.
    As you've noted it has settled down. Why? Because there have been less attacks. I've always said, if there's a school fight, where are the teachers? These debates can be managed better, but you have a media that wants the theatrics for ratings and sound bites (including the ones you noted). So it feeds itself. Not entirely the candidate's fault. They have to be tough. The stakes are very high and it's better to attack than appear weak.
  • Posts: 1,631
    Attacking is fine, when its substantive and based on policy differences. Attacking because you want to call your opponent a name is not, and that's a large part of what was happening in the early going.

    They've decided to stop the name calling at this point, and that's why it's under control for the most part.

    But, if they can't figure out a way to behave in a situation like this, why should I expect them to in high level security discussions with Russia or any of our allies? This part of the process is easy compared to the actual job. If they can't handle this with decorum, why should I assume they'll be able to do it when actual lives are on the line?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    So, it's very easy. If the name calling starts, cut the mic or reprimand them right then and there. Then do it again. And again. Eventually they will look stupid and stop. This is encouraged by the media.
  • edited March 2016 Posts: 110
    bondjames wrote: »
    That's because there isn't enough fact checking and stopping of incorrect attack statements by the candidates on the spot normally. So they get to go on spouting nonsense. If an attack is made, then I believe that candidates must have enough time to respond. In earlier debates the stakes weren't as high, so of course things wouldn't be as heated.

    The process is not well run.

    Having said that, this debate is actually pretty substantive and I think all the candidates are doing a reasonable job up there. The attacks are part of the normal process.

    Plus you had some early debates run by a supposed conservative cable outlet that sounded like they were running a reality show! The nerve of Megyn Kelly going after Trump early on based on what he did on the Apprentice! We watch debates so we can learn something about the candidates. Not to watch the moderators make news during the debate! I used to respect Megyn a lot. Not any more!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    A fundamental problem here is the need for ratings and hyperbole. It feeds itself, even among respected journalists as you note.
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