Christoph Waltz as Blofeld - Hit or miss?

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  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Even Vesper they made into a villain.

    And the award for 'Most Idiotic Comment 2016' seems sewn up.

    Something of a surprise as I had a tenner on @Mendes4lyfe as nailed on favourite at 7/4.

    As usual no arguments but insults. You certainly win any prize in that category.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Even Vesper they made into a villain.

    And the award for 'Most Idiotic Comment 2016' seems sewn up.

    Something of a surprise as I had a tenner on @Mendes4lyfe as nailed on favourite at 7/4.

    As usual no arguments but insults. You certainly win any prize in that category.

    Well anyone who attributes Vesper being a traitor to P&W rather than some random bloke called Ian Fleming seems to be asking to be insulted.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    The script is not the only problem in the infamous 3rd act of SP - Newman also took a huge dump on the audience. What's with 'The Moors' being played on a loop for what seemed like 20 minutes?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    The script is not the only problem in the infamous 3rd act of SP - Newman also took a huge dump on the audience. What's with 'The Moors' being played on a loop for what seemed like 20 minutes?
    I agree. That was so bloody annoying. From the MI6 building scene onwards, it was a constant monotonous drone in my ear that then got louder and louder, like he wanted to tick me off. It worked.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Too bad it wasn't something awesome like "He's Dangerous" I can listen to that on repeat for hours.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited May 2016 Posts: 4,043
    I wasn't the biggest fan of Newman's SF score, it had its moments, although was a little too generic for my tastes.

    That being said at least it was original work, the SP score just seem to consist of recycled cues from SF. I presume Newman was more concerned with his assignment with Spielberg and just decided to slum it with EON.

    I hope he never scores another Bond film again. Another aspect which made me appreciate QOS even more, still in my view Arnold's best Bond score to date, if only he'd scored SF.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    @Murdock, you and I both. That's a great track from AVTAK.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited May 2016 Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    The script is not the only problem in the infamous 3rd act of SP - Newman also took a huge dump on the audience. What's with 'The Moors' being played on a loop for what seemed like 20 minutes?
    I agree. That was so bloody annoying. From the MI6 building scene onwards, it was a constant monotonous drone in my ear that then got louder and louder, like he wanted to tick me off. It worked.

    Well I thought Newman's sloppy effort went without saying athough I think we should cut the 3rd act a little bit of slack for once as the awful score starts in the PTS.
    Murdock wrote: »
    Too bad it wasn't something awesome like "He's Dangerous" I can listen to that on repeat for hours.

    How good would it have been to have this during the plane crash?

    I remember you rescored that scene with several versions of the 007 theme @Murdock. How about a 'He's dangerous' version?
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Even Vesper they made into a villain.

    And the award for 'Most Idiotic Comment 2016' seems sewn up.

    Something of a surprise as I had a tenner on @Mendes4lyfe as nailed on favourite at 7/4.

    As usual no arguments but insults. You certainly win any prize in that category.

    Well anyone who attributes Vesper being a traitor to P&W rather than some random bloke called Ian Fleming seems to be asking to be insulted.

    So Ian Fleming wrote the screenplay and script to Casino Royale. Wow.
    If you cannot tell a book and an adapted screenplay apart then all hope is lost.
    P+W decided how Vesper became the traitor in the cinematic version of the book. And that is what I meant. Do I really need to spell that out for you? Or do you just take pleasure in contradicting everything on principle?
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited May 2016 Posts: 4,043
    Undoubtedly one of Barry's best later cues. I might not rate VTAK but JB bought his A game with the score, he never slummed it with Bond and I'm sure he could have if he'd wanted to.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    AVTAK is a great score for sure. It's actually one of the elements of the film that I like the most.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    bondjames wrote: »
    AVTAK is a great score for sure. It's actually one of the elements of the film that I like the most.

    AVTAK is my second favourite Barry score:)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    P+W decided how Vesper became the traitor in the cinematic version of the book. And that is what I meant. Do I really need to spell that out for you?

    Yes perhaps you do given that @Creasy47 and @Dragonpol took exactly the same meaning as I did from your line 'Even Vesper they turned into a villain' which implies that the character of Vesper was always portrayed as some sort of angelic perfect being but P&W decided to piss on Fleming and rewrite her in similar shoddy fashion as they did Blofeld.

    And for the record the reason that Vesper became a traitor in the cinematic version of the book is the same reason as the literary version of the book so I'm not sure what it is P&W are deciding. Did they also decide that Bond beats Le Chiffre and then gets his bollocks battered?

  • edited May 2016 Posts: 11,189
    @BondJasonBond006 "Wine with Stacey" is one of my favourite Bond tracks. Very poignant and somewhat nostalgic. Whenever I listen to it I'm taken back to happier times.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,399
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    @BondJasonBond006 "Wine with Stacey" is one of I favourite Bond tracks. Very poignant and somewhat nostalgic. Whenever I listen to it I'm taken back to happier times.

    Woah, I love that track.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    @BondJasonBond006 "Wine with Stacey" is one of I favourite Bond tracks. Very poignant and somewhat nostalgic. Whenever I listen to it I'm taken back to happier times.

    Woah, I love that track.

    Me too!! The melody of AVTAK is a masterpiece of gigantic proportions and Duran Duran's AVTAK is my No 1 song of all time even.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Apart from SP he just loves to rubbish the Craig era, I'd have more respect if he just said that he actually hates CR - SF and its only Craig decided to do a by the numbers Brozzer effort he jizzes his pants everytime he talks about said film.

    I could never unreservedly support any entry the way he subjects us to his nauseating propaganda for SPECTRE.

    Forgetting that Fleming actually created the character of Vesper Lynd and her motivations and attributing it to the proverbial monkeys at the typewriter in order to bash arguably the best film of the Craig era shows serious desperation.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Hilarious. Since when do I dislike CR?? It has been my No 4 Bond movie since 2006 for Christ's sake and I have praised it countless times.

    If you and your twin brother TheWizard want to jump on me every time I try to counteract your ridiculous agenda against Spectre then do. I don't mind.

    I simply wanted to point out that the way Vesper suddenly turned out to be a traitor/villain or whatever you call it, was cinematically the same as Elektra suddenly being revealed as the villain. What's so difficult to get? It has nothing to do with the books.
    You two just found one more reason to dwell in your negativity.

    Why do I even bother. Time to leave this thread for good. There is still Mendes4Lyfe you can have "fun" with. Jeeze!
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited May 2016 Posts: 8,399
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Apart from SP he just loves to rubbish the Craig era, I'd have more respect if he just said that he actually hates CR - SF and its only Craig decided to do a by the numbers Brozzer effort he jizzes his pants everytime he talks about said film.

    I could never unreservedly support any entry the way he subjects us to his nauseating propaganda for SPECTRE.

    Forgetting that Fleming actually created the character of Vesper Lynd and her motivations and attributing it to the proverbial monkeys at the typewriter in order to bash arguably the best film of the Craig era shows serious desperation.

    Well, 2007 - 2014 was a bad time to be a Bond fan, IMO. It looks like we could be entering another one of those periods again, with even the producers apathetic about bringing the character back. They seem more interested in other projects these days, so I don't blame anyone for holding onto and cherishing that brief time we had in the sun. Who knows when Bond will step forth from the shadows once more, and what he will look like when he does.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I think a lot of this might be on account of the studio thing. There doesn't seem to be any rush (based on the MGM CEO comments at the AGM) and so EON probably are focused on other things. If Craig moves on due to the delays, that may result in an even further gap in time. I hope it doesn't become another LTK - GE thing, but who knows. Lots happening behind the scenes that we're not aware of I'm sure.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,399
    Hilarious. Since when do I dislike CR?? It has been my No 4 Bond movie since 2006 for Christ's sake and I have praised it countless times.

    If you and your twin brother TheWizard want to jump on me every time I try to counteract your ridiculous agenda against Spectre then do. I don't mind.

    I simply wanted to point out that the way Vesper suddenly turned out to be a traitor/villain or whatever you call it, was cinematically the same as Elektra suddenly being revealed as the villain. What's so difficult to get? It has nothing to do with the books.
    You two just found one more reason to dwell in your negativity.

    Why do I even bother. Time to leave this thread for good. There is still Mendes4Lyfe you can have "fun" with. Jeeze!

    Ah, you made a fatal error there, mate. Any criticism of CR means you hate the film. That's just the law. ;)
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Hilarious. Since when do I dislike CR?? It has been my No 4 Bond movie since 2006 for Christ's sake and I have praised it countless times.

    If you and your twin brother TheWizard want to jump on me every time I try to counteract your ridiculous agenda against Spectre then do. I don't mind.

    I simply wanted to point out that the way Vesper suddenly turned out to be a traitor/villain or whatever you call it, was cinematically the same as Elektra suddenly being revealed as the villain. What's so difficult to get? It has nothing to do with the books.
    You two just found one more reason to dwell in your negativity.

    Why do I even bother. Time to leave this thread for good. There is still Mendes4Lyfe you can have "fun" with. Jeeze!

    Ah, you made a fatal error there, mate. Any criticism of CR means you hate the film. That's just the law. ;)

    Oh dear! Yes, I forgot, shame on me :))
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    If you and your twin brother TheWizard want to jump on me every time I try to counteract your ridiculous agenda against Spectre then do. I don't mind.

    You clearly missed this post where I acknowledge that SP is a pretty solid entry then:
    Any film can be improved with more time and care. SPECTRE is amazing the way it is. Flawed, but amazing nonetheless.

    Would you care to elaborate on why you think SP is flawed? It's just that in the Christoph Waltz thread you seem to have a downer on people being negative towards SP?

    I have never said that SP was devoid of criticism, or should be treated as such. What I took issue with was a specific criticism because I didn't see any basis in it, and still don't.

    Well seeing as you discount the handling of Blofeld as a negative point against the film I'd be interested to hear exactly what your criticisms are then?

    Assuming you haven't lost the evidence that is.

    I never discounted it, I just didn't see any merit in it either.

    To answer you're question, I can see where people are coming from when they say that SP is very liberal in its use of imagery from past Bond films. In fact, you could probably link virtually every scene back to another entry in the series. So I can somewhat see where people are coming from when they say criticise that. Also, I think they could've done a much better job of linking SP to the rest of the Craig era. I personnaly don't think this is a big deal, because its such a small part of the film overall, but still. I definitely think this criticism is valid. And, I have to agree that the third act is the weakest by far. To me the first two are 9/10 and the third is 6/10. So overall, it's a solid 8/10 film. As far as I am concerned, that is still excellent, in spite of its faults.

    Seems we are in accord for once.

    Although I would probably go 9/10, 9/10, 4/10 for a 7.33/10 overall score.

    It seems you are more forgiving and willing to overlook the Blofeld/retconning stuff in the third act.

    I can overlook it and not let it spoil my enjoyment of a very good film (as both the retcon and the stepbrother are dealt with in about 2 lines) but I can't forgive it.

    F**king up Bill Tanner is just mildly annoying but it doesn't affect anything as he's such a non entity so I can let it pass.

    F**king up Blofeld is a whole different ball game I'm afraid.

    I kind of feel these days that they need this on a 60 inch screen running on a loop at EON during script meetings as a reminder:

    i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03253/alan-partridge-jam_3253103a.gif

    At least Mendes4lyfe is open to a reasonable debate whereas you just start wailing like a scalded toddler the moment anyone dare suggest SP is anything other than cinematic perfection.

    There are shades of grey you know. It's possible to enjoy SP and think it is a very good entry whilst also thinking parts of it are unacceptably poor.

    I also see very few similarities between Elektra and Vesper despite you constantly using the word 'cinematically' like its a vital distinction that separates it from the book and somehow means therefore P&W are bastardising their own earlier work on TWINE. EON hired them to adapt Ian Fleming's novel CR and the key plot twist in this is that Vesper us a traitor so what are they supposed to do? Ignore her betrayal and instead just have them drive off into the sunset in the DB5? Actually don't answer that as that's probably your dream ending to every Bond film.

  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    If you and your twin brother TheWizard want to jump on me every time I try to counteract your ridiculous agenda against Spectre then do. I don't mind.

    You clearly missed this post where I acknowledge that SP is a pretty solid entry then:

    Oh dear, I missed the one positive post from you in the hundred negative ones. My sincere apologies then. My bad.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    If you and your twin brother TheWizard want to jump on me every time I try to counteract your ridiculous agenda against Spectre then do. I don't mind.

    You clearly missed this post where I acknowledge that SP is a pretty solid entry then:

    Oh dear, I missed the one positive post from you in the hundred negative ones. My sincere apologies then. My bad.

    My negative ones are (Newman's laziness apart) almost exclusively about the car crash of the third act not the film in general which is pretty damn good but I guess that doesn't fit in with your portrayal of me as the evil bogeyman constantly shitting on the greatest film ever made.

  • Posts: 1,631

    I also see very few similarities between Elektra and Vesper despite you constantly using the word 'cinematically' like its a vital distinction that separates it from the book and somehow means therefore P&W are bastardising their own earlier work on TWINE. EON hired them to adapt Ian Fleming's novel CR and the key plot twist in this is that Vesper us a traitor so what are they supposed to do? Ignore her betrayal and instead just have them drive off into the sunset in the DB5? Actually don't answer that as that's probably your dream ending to every Bond film.

    Agreed. There's little similarity there outside of the fact that they're both turncoats. If that's all it takes to consider one a ripoff of the other, then we'd have to go back further than Elektra to say who they ripped off to create the cinematic Vesper.

    The fact of the matter is that there are hints of Vesper's betrayal littered throughout EON's Casino Royale. It was not the "sudden" instance that some are claiming it to be here. You can see her resisting Bond's advances towards her throughout the film, even while at the same time seeming to want to give in to them. She's conflicted, knowing that she may very well be asked to betray him in the long run. Elektra, on the other hand, was a villain from the get go. There was little to no believability in her "victim" act. If there was ever a twist that fell flat in a film, it was her reveal as the villain. Saw that one coming from several miles away.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    This is like the Muppet Show, Waldorf & Statler will have a go at anything, although they are at least funny.
    full.jpg
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited May 2016 Posts: 4,043
    Like your constantly sniping at SF, look mate please don't take the moral high ground.

    You are as bad as the rest, infact I'm sure that wooden spoon is due a renewal after all the sh*t stirring you do.

    Oh look at me happy go lucky emoticon addict you others are so negative I'm the only one who puts a positive spin on things.

    I'll admit my negativity on SP but you are just as bad with SF, people in glasshouses and unlike our hilariously witty friend The Wizard who has said more than a few times SP was a solid entry I'm more with @dalton & @birdleson thinking its easily the worst Craig entry and not the greatest motion picure of all time.

  • edited May 2016 Posts: 7,507
    On the Vesper note, I vould claim P&W actually elevated the character into something even more interesting. In the film version she is in fact more or less in charge of Bond controlling the finances. I agree that her reveal as a "villainess" is not so sudden after all. Retrospectively you can sense that she is working against him all along, refusing to buy him back in when he loses the first time. It all adds more meat to the character and her struggles when falling in love with Bond. I think it is an example, together with FRWL and probably Goldfinger, of Fleming's original plot actually being improved upon slightly. Although I like to bash P&W I must say their work on CR deserved a lot of credit, and Im thankfull for what they did with that film.

    That being said... as the thread athour I guess it is my responsibility to remind you all that Vesper and CR is not the main topic of this thread :)
  • Posts: 38
    After watching the Spectre again, I would say good, not great. I believe following Javier is a tough call. He needed a serious "psycho" side like Javier or Donald Pleasance back in the day. Both of them have the same "twisted" appeal rather than being subdued
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