'Anyone for a jelly baby ? ' - Doctor Who discussion thread.

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  • Posts: 19,339
    I,for one,wouldnt watch it.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    I don't watch Dr Who so I can't say I'm bothered either way about this. What's depressing is that it was clearly a decision made not for creative reasons but merely for the BBC to show themselves as being diverse.

    And now one has broken the ice the others will be less reticent in following.
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Female Bond = no.

    Black Bond = yes.

    We have to accept it i'm afraid.

    I think we might get away with it for the first post DC Bond actor (assuming he does B25. Although given the speed at which they are working we are at least half a decade away from casting B26 and by this stage the diversity elephant in the room may have grown too large for them to ignore) but certainly by Bond actor number 8 the pressure for them to do it will be intolerable.

    And with Babs setting herself up as diversity champion of the British film industry there's only one way this is going to end for Bond.
  • Posts: 7,653
    I celebrate this female Doctor and it is indeed a big change but not in the format I hope. I would be far more worried about a US version of Doctor Who who would undoubtedly have a sonic gun instead of a screwdriver.
    The Doctor has traveled since 1963 and the formula got sometimes a bit tired, a female Doctor might just be the medicine for the franchise. I do hope we get d decent guest part form the eight Doctor in the upcoming series he deserves some more time as well.

    Looking forward to the next Doctor Who series.
  • gumboltgumbolt Now with in-office photocopier
    Posts: 153
    I do not wish failure upon this decision, unlike some "fans". But I feel it is the wrong decision and the fallout from failure could kill the show. It would be hard to cast a white male as the 14th doctor and so any rushed recasting might be hampered by PC fears. Like with Daniel Craig when he was announced, many fans have turned against the decision instantly. Thankfully they were proven wonderfully wrong. But the DC casting was not as radical as this. The BBC have to get this next series right, or we will lose the show for another generation.
    What really bothers me is what message this sends to white men, who seem to be disqualified from equality considerations more and more. The BBC-engineered phrase "male and pale"* is a disgusting expression - the sentiment and intent behind it would never be tolerated for any other race or gender group.
    * "male and pale" came into popular parlance when then BBC director-general Greg Dyke used it in a speech to promote greater diversity in the corporation.
  • Posts: 7,653
    I think it is the right decision to have the Doctor in a female role, heck most of us loved Missy too.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I'm willing to wait and see, ...... she could be brilliant ?
  • Posts: 7,653
    I'm willing to wait and see, ...... she could be brilliant ?

    That is what I expect. They could only go the Tennant/Smith direction again which would endanger the series as much. This is a whole new possibility with some great chances, it will most certainly not be a stale choice.

    The 007 choice will never be female as like the character Shaft it is quite clearly a male thing.

    The Doctor with the regeneration has always left the options open in what the Doctor could change, there was always a possibility of change.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 12,837
    I think it's worth mentioning because a lot of people who don't watch the show have joined the discussion: the situation isn't the same as Bond.

    James Bond is a man. A human man. He's been played by a number of actors but it's still just different interpretations of the same guy. His creator wrote him as a man.

    The doctor is an alien and his species have a very fluid concept of gender and race. The only reason he's been a man for this long is because he just happened to not have turned into a woman yet. And really, as someone pointed out a couple of pages back, it's a bit silly that he's regenerated so many times and has always been a white male since he can apparently be anything. I found an article the other week, posted here somewhere, about how one of the creators of the show suggested getting a woman to play the part years ago. He's always said for as long as I've been watching that it's a lottery and he could turn into anyone and we've even seen other time lords change gender. His arch enemy has been a woman for the last few years.

    You could have a go at their reasons for casting a woman (personally I think it was more to do with boosting ratings than box ticking) but we won't be able to judge that until we actually see her in the part. It could just be that the new showrunner had a certain vision in mind (Moffat said he was deliberately seeking an older actor last time and noone accused him of pandering).
    gumbolt wrote: »
    I do not wish failure upon this decision, unlike some "fans". But I feel it is the wrong decision and the fallout from failure could kill the show. It would be hard to cast a white male as the 14th doctor and so any rushed recasting might be hampered by PC fears. Like with Daniel Craig when he was announced, many fans have turned against the decision instantly. Thankfully they were proven wonderfully wrong. But the DC casting was not as radical as this. The BBC have to get this next series right, or we will lose the show for another generation.
    What really bothers me is what message this sends to white men, who seem to be disqualified from equality considerations more and more. The BBC-engineered phrase "male and pale"* is a disgusting expression - the sentiment and intent behind it would never be tolerated for any other race or gender group.
    * "male and pale" came into popular parlance when then BBC director-general Greg Dyke used it in a speech to promote greater diversity in the corporation.

    It definitely won't kill the show imo. The BBC probably wanted a radical change to bring more publicity and boost ratings, and at the moment it seems to be working: even on here there are members who don't watch the show and have never paricipated in this thread commenting on the decision, and I think the fans who are passionate enough to hate the decision are big enough fans that they'll tune in anyway.

    I'm just glad they did something different. I was very worried that the lower ratings under Capaldi would scare them into playing it safe and going for a Tennant/Smith clone but instead it seems to have done the opposite: they're going all out with an even bigger risk to try and breath some life back into things. Can't fault them really. Looking forward to seeing how it works out. And if she is a flop, oh well, she can regenerate again next Christmas (although personally I really can't see her or any chosen actor being that unpopular that they're sacked within a year).
  • Posts: 19,339
    She is an excellent actress..if anyone can make it work it is her.
  • Posts: 12,526
    I have to be honest people. I am hugely disappointed! I wasn't impressed they turned the Master into Missy. Why?

    The Time Lords are alive and kicking, why are their not female Time Lords? Why mess around with all this? The females regenerate into another female and the males into another male.

    Does this mean now Bill Potts will fall in love with the new Dr and that their are gonna be a lot of awkward conversations for parents and younger children going forward? Their really is nothing respected anymore.

    I don't know whether I will bother after the next special with this show? A bit like when I didn't bother with Top Gear when all that changed. I am sorry but you can mess with a formula too much. They say with Capaldi that they have lost a lot of the younger viewers they had when Tennant was the Dr? Well they have really chucked the baby out with the bath water on this one for me. I think they may well lose a lot of the older fan base with this choice.

    Sorry peeps if this reads offensive as it isn't meant too. But sometimes you have to stand by your gut beliefs on whatever you believe in. I am not racist or sexist but this really has become a P/C farce!
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited July 2017 Posts: 4,043
    Although we stopped watching it sometime into Capaldi's run, it wasn't him more the storylines, when he was wielding an electric guitar my Wife and I thought time to bow out.

    So we have no investment in this but the decision I think is a good one and all the PC BS from some is just nauseating, The Doctor unlike Bond is an alien and nothing suggests that an incarnation of the Time Lord couldn't be female.

    It's like some think it's OK now to decry this as it's gone to far and PC has taken over, no it's not PC it's progress at some point the Doctor would become female and Jodie Whittaker is a fine actress, might just tune in to see how she does.

    The Doctor the character is not defined unlike Bond as a man, this is an alien who changes identity surely you must realise this would happen, PC has nothing to do with it.

    Also if you say you aren't something usually means you have doubts you are.

    "I'm not a sexist I know some women some of them are actually friends of mine"
  • cwl007cwl007 England
    Posts: 611
    Why would Bill Potts falling in love with the Dr be an awkward conversation for parents?
  • Posts: 5,994
    Besides, Bill will not be in the series anyway.
  • Posts: 498
    I'm a woman, and I'm disappointed as well. Some people think that changing a male character to female is progressive, but I just find it lazy and counter-productive. I'd rather see that time and energy put to creating a new character.
    Not sure if I'm going to watch the series past the Christmas special.
  • SatoriousSatorious Brushing up on a little Danish
    Posts: 233
    Best of luck to Jodie I say! The formula needed some shaking-up, amusing to see so many getting their panties in a bunch over this (probably the same bunch of Daily Mail readers who hated Bill when they found out she was an openly gay character before giving her a fair chance or those who hated the idea of a blond Bond). If you don't want to watch it - don't. I'm willing to give this a chance before judging.
  • Posts: 12,837
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    The Time Lords are alive and kicking, why are their not female Time Lords? Why mess around with all this? The females regenerate into another female and the males into another male.

    Well, no. I'm not sure where you got that from because for as long as I've been watching they've always said they could regenerate into anything. And from what I can tell it isn't a recent development either. One of the creators of the show wanted a woman

    https://www.themarysue.com/doctor-who-creator-female-doctor/

    So in the context of the show it's fine. Yeah maybe it wasn't explicitly stated that they could gender swap in the old series but was it ever explicitly stated that they couldn't? Because if not I don't see an issue. After all by that logic the whole idea of regeneration is a retcon because it wasn't mentioned until they needed a new actor.

    I understand some of the complaints but it's not like they're contradicting the show itself.
    cwl007 wrote: »
    Why would Bill Potts falling in love with the Dr be an awkward conversation for parents?

    Yeah I don't get this part of your post at all @RogueAgent? It'd be no different to when Rose fell in love with the doctor. And even if a same sex relationship was for some reason "awkward" to explain (it isn't), there have been a few gay characrers and gay romances on the show at this point. Bill had one last series. But yeah I'm pretty certain she's gone anyway.
    jackdagger wrote: »
    I'm a woman, and I'm disappointed as well. Some people think that changing a male character to female is progressive, but I just find it lazy and counter-productive. I'd rather see that time and energy put to creating a new character.
    Not sure if I'm going to watch the series past the Christmas special.

    He isn't really a male character though. Time lords are gender fluid. In the context of the show, it's purely coincidence that he's been a man every time.
    Shardlake wrote: »
    The Doctor unlike Bond is an alien and nothing suggests that an incarnation of the Time Lord couldn't be female.

    Exactly. I understand some of the comments. @NicNac for example has been very fair about why he doesn't like the idea. But I don't understand the fans who are saying that the doctor is a male character and that they're messing with the show itself. The only reason he's been a male character for so long is because he's only regenerated into males. There's no reason he couldn't regenerate into a woman.

    At the end of the day I haven't been watching for as long as a lot of you. And of course I understand how it feels when something special to you is altered in such a big way, I'd likely feel the same if a female Bond was cast. But it's silly trying to justify not wanting a female actor in the context of the show itself.

    Not a fan of the idea of a male role model being turned into a woman when there's plenty of good roles for women on TV already, or not a fan because you're worried it'll just be a box ticking exercise and undermine the character by being "the female doctor" instead of just the doctor? Fair enough. Not a fan of the idea because "the doctor is male"? Doesn't make sense.
    Satorious wrote: »
    Best of luck to Jodie I say! The formula needed some shaking-up, amusing to see so many getting their panties in a bunch over this (probably the same bunch of Daily Mail readers who hated Bill when they found out she was an openly gay character before giving her a fair chance or those who hated the idea of a blond Bond). If you don't want to watch it - don't. I'm willing to give this a chance before judging.

    I agree with a lot of this. At the end of the day the only reason the show has been around as long as it has is its ability to change. Since it came back the lead character has changed from a mancunian war veteran to a dashing romantic yet nerdy hero to a more foppish nerdy hero to a pragmatic, grumpy aging rockstar. Doctor Who thrives on change and for me this change is a welcome one, I'm excited to see how it plays out.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Although we stopped watching it sometime into Capaldi's run, it wasn't him more the storylines, when he was wielding an electric guitar my Wife and I thought time to bow out.

    So we have no investment in this but the decision I think is a good one and all the PC BS from some is just nauseating, The Doctor unlike Bond is an alien and nothing suggests that an incarnation of the Time Lord couldn't be female.

    It's like some think it's OK now to decry this as it's gone to far and PC has taken over, no it's not PC it's progress at some point the Doctor would become female and Jodie Whittaker is a fine actress, might just tune in to see how she does.

    The Doctor the character is not defined unlike Bond as a man, this is an alien who changes identity surely you must realise this would happen, PC has nothing to do with it.

    Also if you say you aren't something usually means you have doubts you are.

    "I'm not a sexist I know some women some of them are actually friends of mine"

    Well said. The character is an alien.

    I doubt that Bond will ever be anything other than male. That's the character.
  • Posts: 380
    It does seem that the one thing you absolutley cannot be these days is a white, hetrosexual male. This in the eyes of the trendy liberal media is totally unexceptable. Its stunt casting, done to appease the twitteratti and to boost flagging ratings. And has no- one noticed the inherrant sexism in the casting. The first female Dr just happens to be young,slim, blonde and pretty.
  • RC7RC7
    edited July 2017 Posts: 10,512
    cooperman2 wrote: »
    It does seem that the one thing you absolutley cannot be these days is a white, hetrosexual male.

    Well, taking the BBC's most successful dramas of the last few years - Sherlock, The Night Manager, Poldark, Happy Valley, War & Peace... you'll find them pretty healthily populated with white, heterosexual males. Usually as the protagonist or antagonist, in many cases both. There are certainly people who would rather have anything but, but they're usually urchins who hang around on social media, much the same as those that think everyone is out to get the endangered straight, white, male.
  • SatoriousSatorious Brushing up on a little Danish
    Posts: 233
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    One well known actress on twitter who tries to champion women actors has actually complained that the new Doctor is a young attractive actress and bemoans the fact 'older' actresses (ie herself) aren't getting a crack of the whip.

    Well, doesn't that just take the biscuit.

    Afraid the show has made a rod for its own back, and regardless of viewing figures they will have to cover all ethnic minorities and all sexes until the BBC notice no one is watching anymore and they pull the plug.

  • Posts: 3,333
    So disliking a female Dr Who equates to being a "Daily Mail reader" or the same type of person "who hated the idea of a blond Bond", does it? What complete and utter hogwash. These comparisons are neither joined-up or mutually exclusive to one another. From 1963 to pretty much 2017, Dr Who (as a character) has been considered indisputably male. That is a fact. Up until yesterday, that is, generations had sat together and (albeit with certain reservations) had pretty much enjoyed most of what the writers and producers had delivered over the decades. Well, not anymore. Not forgetting that the majority of the Daily Mail's readership is made up mostly of women, but we'll let that fly just for now.

    Turning Dr Who (not forgetting they'd already pulled this same PR stunt with the Master to Missy regeneration) into a transgender time traveler is surly one of the most idiotic decisions the Beeb has come up with in recent years, and smacks of virtue-signaling of the utmost extreme. Sure, it'll get publicity, but so what! After the initial buzz-feed has died down, all they're going to be left with is a series that's lost its own mythology and, for want of a better word, direction. To call someone that doesn't like something a "Daily Mail reader" is both puerile and uncouth. You neither hold the moral high-ground nor the intellectual superiority card in your hand when you make such a bold and infantile claim. And if you believe the often-recited: "he's an alien, so he can regenerate into anything" schtick, then why has he waited up until yesterday, after 12 male regenerations, to turn himself into a hausfrau? Because some trendy, latte-drinking hipster has decreed it, that's why.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Already this is bringing out the absolute worst in the fandom, on both sides.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    She will be the real War Doctor !
  • OnlyManWhoCanOnlyManWhoCan Greater London
    Posts: 202
    I remember the stink people were making when James Bond was recast with a blonde so I'm not surprised that a female Doctor has got some Whovians up in arms.

    I do find it odd when people use this as an argument:

    "WHAT? A female Doctor!? What's next, a [FICTIONAL CHARACTER THAT HAS NEVER HAD THE ABILITY TO REGENERATE INTO A DIFFERENT SEX/RACE]"

    I don't understand how any person who proclaims to be a fan of Doctor Who can't see the character ever being anything but male. This regeneration has been decades in the making! We have been told the Doctor can turn into a woman for years.

    Imagine if for 50+ years we'd only seen the TARDIS travel to the past, despite being told repeatedly it could also travel to the future. This feels like the announcement of the first ever 'future episode.'

    Although I am a fan of Capaldi's Doctor I was initially a little disappointed when he was announced as it seemed a bit 'same-old, same-old.' This feels like a proper change.
  • Posts: 1,031
    I'm not much of a Whovian, so I'm more amused by the debate this casting has caused more than anything. Don't see anything wrong with it, the doctor is an alien with two hearts who regenerates into someone else - so can presumably regenerate into a woman, American, French, black, white, Peter Capaldi.

    My worry is that the writers may have a transgender agenda behind it - if they do then this is PC tosh - much like the nonsense I saw in the news about how TFL staff on the London Underground now can't say 'Ladies and Gentlemen'. Why? Because it might offend someone who isn't male or female? It might offend a time travelling alien with two hearts who isn't human and can be either male or female?

    Although the Doctor is a 'time lord'. Can ladies be lords?
  • OnlyManWhoCanOnlyManWhoCan Greater London
    Posts: 202
    Dennison wrote: »
    My worry is that the writers may have a transgender agenda behind it - if they do then this is PC tosh - much like the nonsense I saw in the news about how TFL staff on the London Underground now can't say 'Ladies and Gentlemen'. Why? Because it might offend someone who isn't male or female? It might offend a time travelling alien with two hearts who isn't human and can be either male or female?

    Although the Doctor is a 'time lord'. Can ladies be lords?

    My reading of transgender people is that they become the gender/person they always felt they were inside, so although the female Doctor will likely be a trans icon I'm not sure it's a perfect fit (who says they have to be, though?) as they will still 'feel' they are the Doctor.

    In the series there are both Time Lords and Time Ladies. Dunno what the new doctor will call themselves. TBH I would be perfectly happy if the new Doctor pays the same level of interest in their appearance as they always do: a quick comment about their hair colour, ear size and then moving on - with no mention of their sex as it matters so little to them!
  • Posts: 5,994
    I suppose the Bond fans who complain about that never watch DN. After all, the bad guy of the movie, a half-Chinese / half-German former Tong was played by a white actor. Like Charlie Chan, Fu-Manchu or Kwai Chang Caine before and after him. And the Batman movie franchise saw a black character becoming white in the space of two movies.

    This said, I have nothing against changing the race or the sex of a character as long as there is a logical reason behind it. Idris Elba as Heimdahl ? Well, Heimdahl is a god, and who are we to question a god's choice of skin tone ? Noma Dumezweni as Hermione Granger ? A wizard did it. Naomie Harris as Moneypenny ? Reboot. The Doctor as a woman ? He/She's an alien, and nothing contradicts it (in fact, there are quite a few things that corroborates it in the series proper). Bond becoming black or asian ? No, thank you !

    As Colin Baker said : She is the Doctor, whether you like it or not. And that will be my only word on that subject. For the others, you have more than fifty years of material in the series you can go back to, with a male Doctor. That should last you quite a while (Myself, I'm only halfway in Tom Baker's run, having finished "Image of the Fendahl").
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    My wife teaches year one kids and is fuming about this, because she says her little boys need male role models on TV, and these are being eroded quickly. She thinks the young boys will now lose interest in Dr Who.

    Whether it will happen or not, I don't know. We are in new territory here. Episode 1 next year will have the best viewing figures for years, but if the writing is poor then there is nothing Jodie W can do about it, people will lose interest fast.

    If they had made the War Doctor female then this change would have been a little easier to take on board. As it is they are throwing the dice once more ( Capaldi was appreciated by hard core fans but not by the general public). Kris Marshall would have been 'safe'. This is another gamble.
  • Posts: 12,837
    I don't get why people are acting like this will kill the show. If anything it'll result in more viewers than the slump they've gotten themselves into lately and even if for some reason everyone did hate the idea and ratings fall (which I really can't see happening: kids won't care, casual viewers won't care, etc) they can just cast a guy again next time. The show is always changing.
    bondsum wrote: »
    And if you believe the often-recited: "he's an alien, so he can regenerate into anything" schtick, then why has he waited up until yesterday, after 12 male regenerations, to turn himself into a hausfrau? Because some trendy, latte-drinking hipster has decreed it, that's why.

    He can regenerate into anything though. That's something that's been established for at least the last few years and it's not even like it's the new writers messing with the show: the creator of the show wanted a woman to take over at one point. If you don't like the idea fair enough but it isn't going against the mythology of the show. There is no in show reason for him being a man for so long, it's purely coincidence. At the end of the day he's only been male for this long because they've only cast male actors, not because he can't regenerate into a woman.
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