SPECTRE: What would you have done differently?

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  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @JamesBondKenya, you mean the shot of CG Hinx during the car chase that looks like a PlayStation 1 character wasn't realistic enough for you??

    EON felt forced to somehow top Craig's CGI face in the uncontrolled parachute fall. That Bond and Camille miraculously survived with barely a scratch ;)

    I commend them for at least shooting them in a wind tunnel (imagine how bad it would've been without it), but at the same time, picture how great the scene would've been if it was two stunt doubles performing it as realistically as they can; they needn't zoom in on the actor's faces at all, in that case. I would've preferred something like what MR's PTS did - practical stunt with obvious stunt doubles in play. Better than CGI to me.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @JamesBondKenya, you mean the shot of CG Hinx during the car chase that looks like a PlayStation 1 character wasn't realistic enough for you??

    EON felt forced to somehow top Craig's CGI face in the uncontrolled parachute fall. That Bond and Camille miraculously survived with barely a scratch ;)

    I commend them for at least shooting them in a wind tunnel (imagine how bad it would've been without it), but at the same time, picture how great the scene would've been if it was two stunt doubles performing it as realistically as they can; they needn't zoom in on the actor's faces at all, in that case. I would've preferred something like what MR's PTS did - practical stunt with obvious stunt doubles in play. Better than CGI to me.

    That was at Milton Keynes Xcape near where I live.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @JamesBondKenya, you mean the shot of CG Hinx during the car chase that looks like a PlayStation 1 character wasn't realistic enough for you??

    EON felt forced to somehow top Craig's CGI face in the uncontrolled parachute fall. That Bond and Camille miraculously survived with barely a scratch ;)

    I commend them for at least shooting them in a wind tunnel (imagine how bad it would've been without it), but at the same time, picture how great the scene would've been if it was two stunt doubles performing it as realistically as they can; they needn't zoom in on the actor's faces at all, in that case. I would've preferred something like what MR's PTS did - practical stunt with obvious stunt doubles in play. Better than CGI to me.

    That was at Milton Keynes Xcape near where I live.

    Very cool! Catch them while they were filming? Ever tried it yourself? Would love to give one a go some day.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 19,339
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @JamesBondKenya, you mean the shot of CG Hinx during the car chase that looks like a PlayStation 1 character wasn't realistic enough for you??

    EON felt forced to somehow top Craig's CGI face in the uncontrolled parachute fall. That Bond and Camille miraculously survived with barely a scratch ;)

    I commend them for at least shooting them in a wind tunnel (imagine how bad it would've been without it), but at the same time, picture how great the scene would've been if it was two stunt doubles performing it as realistically as they can; they needn't zoom in on the actor's faces at all, in that case. I would've preferred something like what MR's PTS did - practical stunt with obvious stunt doubles in play. Better than CGI to me.

    That was at Milton Keynes Xcape near where I live.

    Very cool! Catch them while they were filming? Ever tried it yourself? Would love to give one a go some day.

    No ,its always top secret.

    In fact,the Aston Martin night chase,swerving Vesper, and flip-over in CR was filmed at Millbrook Proving Ground,even closer to me,my ex-wife used to work there.

    The roads you see the Aston on before,during and after the crash are all from there.

    Its a site where they test vehicles and tanks etc for the police,army etc to make sure they can take the pressure of chases or other scenarios.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Learn something new every day, had no clue about any of that. Very interesting.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Learn something new every day, had no clue about any of that. Very interesting.

    I aim to please ;)
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    It should have opened in 2012 instead of Skyfall.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @JamesBondKenya, you mean the shot of CG Hinx during the car chase that looks like a PlayStation 1 character wasn't realistic enough for you??

    EON felt forced to somehow top Craig's CGI face in the uncontrolled parachute fall. That Bond and Camille miraculously survived with barely a scratch ;)

    I commend them for at least shooting them in a wind tunnel (imagine how bad it would've been without it), but at the same time, picture how great the scene would've been if it was two stunt doubles performing it as realistically as they can; they needn't zoom in on the actor's faces at all, in that case. I would've preferred something like what MR's PTS did - practical stunt with obvious stunt doubles in play. Better than CGI to me.

    When I heard about them filming it in the frefall simulator I thought we were in for an epic sequence (although my suspicions should've been aroused by not a frame of it appearing in the trailer) to rival MR and then we got a 100% CGI sequence. Did they learn nothing from DAD?

    Use the simulator for close ups of the actors as this would be better than Rog having a hairdryer blown in his face against a blue screen in MR. But for the free fall use STUNTMEN FFS.

    It's a 30 second YouTube search to find guys who can do it:



    That footage of a couple of blokes with go pro cameras is a thousand times better than the sequence they ended up with which probably cost hundreds of thousands and took weeks to film.

    PS - I have had a go on the Milton Keynes Xcape (does this count as a Bond location pilgrimage?) and it's way harder than you think. Just the slightest movement of your little finger and you go flying across the room - surprised Dan managed it actually as we all know what his little finger is like.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Agreed, @TheWizardOfIce. There are tons of adrenaline junkies out there, and certainly enough professionals that they could've easily found someone to shoot the sequence for real. It was a horrible, horrible movie, but the 'Point Break' remake was commendable solely for this reason: lots of batshit crazy stunt work done practically.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Agreed, @TheWizardOfIce. There are tons of adrenaline junkies out there, and certainly enough professionals that they could've easily found someone to shoot the sequence for real. It was a horrible, horrible movie, but the 'Point Break' remake was commendable solely for this reason: lots of batshit crazy stunt work done practically.

    Haven't seen the new point break (and probably never will) but at least it sounds like it stays true to the original.

    Seems like EON have forgotten what made Bond the brand leader for all those years - blokes like Rick Sylvester, Martin Grace, BJ Worth and Remy Julienne actually risking life and limb.

    Painful as it is to admit and say what you like about Tom Cruise but his commitment to jaw dropping stunts mean the MI films have wiped the floor with Bond over the last decade in terms of action.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Agreed, @TheWizardOfIce. There are tons of adrenaline junkies out there, and certainly enough professionals that they could've easily found someone to shoot the sequence for real. It was a horrible, horrible movie, but the 'Point Break' remake was commendable solely for this reason: lots of batshit crazy stunt work done practically.

    Haven't seen the new point break (and probably never will) but at least it sounds like it stays true to the original.

    Seems like EON have forgotten what made Bond the brand leader for all those years - blokes like Rick Sylvester, Martin Grace, BJ Worth and Remy Julienne actually risking life and limb.

    Painful as it is to admit and say what you like about Tom Cruise but his commitment to jaw dropping stunts mean the MI films have wiped the floor with Bond over the last decade in terms of action.

    Agreed once more Wiz,we are on form today .
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited June 2017 Posts: 40,976
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Agreed, @TheWizardOfIce. There are tons of adrenaline junkies out there, and certainly enough professionals that they could've easily found someone to shoot the sequence for real. It was a horrible, horrible movie, but the 'Point Break' remake was commendable solely for this reason: lots of batshit crazy stunt work done practically.

    Haven't seen the new point break (and probably never will) but at least it sounds like it stays true to the original.

    Seems like EON have forgotten what made Bond the brand leader for all those years - blokes like Rick Sylvester, Martin Grace, BJ Worth and Remy Julienne actually risking life and limb.

    Painful as it is to admit and say what you like about Tom Cruise but his commitment to jaw dropping stunts mean the MI films have wiped the floor with Bond over the last decade in terms of action.

    Agreed once more Wiz,we are on form today .

    Yes, past the impressive stunts, there's virtually nothing else to enjoy in the movie. It's best to skip that one. I really enjoy the original one, however.
  • SatoriousSatorious Brushing up on a little Danish
    Posts: 233
    I'd change quite a lot, but quickly off the top of my head (without changing thing *too* radically):

    - Make Hinx more memorable by using the thumbnails more, these deserved more than one scene.
    - Develop Waltz more and make him more sinister than subdued. I'd also drop any references to Skyfall and the whole half brother thing has to go!
    - Some of The L'American + the train "development" drags the pace down a bit, so I'd probably reworked these parts (even though parts of it were nice).
    - The torture scene in the film meant nothing, so either it needed to have Bond experiencing pain/balance/focusing issues or I'd have removed it.
    - There is one finale too many, so I'd have reworked the script so that M,Q,Tanner could simulatenously battle C in London whilst Bond + Madeleine were battling in the desert base - cutting between the two for dramatic effect.
    - A more Bondian score during the action cues (more like the rooftop opening shot and Thunderball-esque brass work used during the boat finale when Bond shoots at the helicopter).
    - I'd also handle the marketing differently - so that the reveal they tried so desperately to hide was more "up-front and centre".
  • Posts: 676
    Satorious wrote: »
    - There is one finale too many, so I'd have reworked the script so that M,Q,Tanner could simulatenously battle C in London whilst Bond + Madeleine were battling in the desert base - cutting between the two for dramatic effect.
    Sounds good.
    Satorious wrote: »
    - A more Bondian score during the action cues (more like the rooftop opening shot and Thunderball-esque brass work used during the boat finale when Bond shoots at the helicopter).
    I do like that seeming reference to Thunderball in the score there.
    Satorious wrote: »
    - I'd also handle the marketing differently - so that the reveal they tried so desperately to hide was more "up-front and centre".
    Yeah, trying to hide Waltz's casting was completely pointless. Meant nothing to general audiences and didn't amount to much more than lying to fans. I mean, they called the movie Spectre for crying out loud. If Blofeld's return is supposedly a selling point, why not just be upfront about it?
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @JamesBondKenya, you mean the shot of CG Hinx during the car chase that looks like a PlayStation 1 character wasn't realistic enough for you??

    Omg I thought I was going crazy. You see that too? It looks like absoulte 320 p garbage. Some of the shots in the helicopter fight look like bull shit the building falling looks like shit blofelds layer looks weirdly cgi and mi6 falling down is pretty bad. Also I hate the story and how the finale goes down and then how he jumps with her into the net
  • Posts: 1,680
    I would have liked to see more time spent in the cold snow environment of Austria, mainly the clinic. I think it was a missed oppurtunity for action as well as drama.

    Hinx needed to be more well developed.

    Blofeld should have played Vespers interrogation tape instead of Whites death & or have White interact with Blofeld & have him killed in front of Bond & madeline.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    @JamesBondKenya, I had someone point it out to me, not sure I would've noticed it as soon as I had if not. Now it'll forever be one of those moments that I'll instantly notice once it's on screen, every damn time I watch the movie (which, thankfully, will be very, very sparingly).
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited June 2017 Posts: 6,304
    Satorious wrote: »
    I'd change quite a lot, but quickly off the top of my head (without changing thing *too* radically):

    - Make Hinx more memorable by using the thumbnails more, these deserved more than one scene.
    - Develop Waltz more and make him more sinister than subdued. I'd also drop any references to Skyfall and the whole half brother thing has to go!
    - Some of The L'American + the train "development" drags the pace down a bit, so I'd probably reworked these parts (even though parts of it were nice).
    - The torture scene in the film meant nothing, so either it needed to have Bond experiencing pain/balance/focusing issues or I'd have removed it.
    - There is one finale too many, so I'd have reworked the script so that M,Q,Tanner could simulatenously battle C in London whilst Bond + Madeleine were battling in the desert base - cutting between the two for dramatic effect.
    - A more Bondian score during the action cues (more like the rooftop opening shot and Thunderball-esque brass work used during the boat finale when Bond shoots at the helicopter).
    - I'd also handle the marketing differently - so that the reveal they tried so desperately to hide was more "up-front and centre".

    There was too much SF. They didn't need the destroyed building, and Judi Dench, and the photograph...one of these three would have been enough. This applies to a lot of the script--cut three references to just one (for example, Vesper's tape, Vesper's photo, Blofeld's "author of all your pain.") The whole script needed another strong pass to streamline it and take out all the fanboy overkill.

    I like the L'American scenes. They're one of the more original parts of the script.

    Remember the GE trailer? They gave away the 006 twist! At least with SP in the trailer they could have hinted at the things that people do remember about Blofeld--the cat, for one.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    echo wrote: »
    Satorious wrote: »
    I'd change quite a lot, but quickly off the top of my head (without changing thing *too* radically):

    - Make Hinx more memorable by using the thumbnails more, these deserved more than one scene.
    - Develop Waltz more and make him more sinister than subdued. I'd also drop any references to Skyfall and the whole half brother thing has to go!
    - Some of The L'American + the train "development" drags the pace down a bit, so I'd probably reworked these parts (even though parts of it were nice).
    - The torture scene in the film meant nothing, so either it needed to have Bond experiencing pain/balance/focusing issues or I'd have removed it.
    - There is one finale too many, so I'd have reworked the script so that M,Q,Tanner could simulatenously battle C in London whilst Bond + Madeleine were battling in the desert base - cutting between the two for dramatic effect.
    - A more Bondian score during the action cues (more like the rooftop opening shot and Thunderball-esque brass work used during the boat finale when Bond shoots at the helicopter).
    - I'd also handle the marketing differently - so that the reveal they tried so desperately to hide was more "up-front and centre".

    There was too much SF. They didn't need the destroyed building, and Judi Dench, and the photograph...one of these three would have been enough. This applies to a lot of the script--cut three references to just one (for example, Vesper's tape, Vesper's photo, Blofeld's "author of all your pain.") The whole script needed another strong pass to streamline it and take out all the fanboy overkill.

    I like the L'American scenes. They're one of the more original parts of the script.

    Remember the GE trailer? They gave away the 006 twist! At least with SP in the trailer they could have hinted at the things that people do remember about Blofeld--the cat, for one.

    That goldeneye trailer is pretty awesome till you realize the entire film is in it
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @JamesBondKenya, you mean the shot of CG Hinx during the car chase that looks like a PlayStation 1 character wasn't realistic enough for you??

    Could someone get a screencap for this, please? All this talk about CGI/stunt faces fascinates me because I never really see it in the films. Thnx.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    The one moment in SP that looks really fake/weird to me is when Bond/Blofeld/Madeleine are walking in the glass corridor in the Spectre HQ (the 'I thought you came here to die' scene). It's really strange, because right after that is Blofeld's control room, and it looks very impressive with all those monitor screens. I don't even have this reaction in the PTS, because apart from the yellow filter, the surroundings look real, the car chase is shot very well (despite the lack of intensity), and even the rear-screen projection in the helicopter battle in Mexico is fine, because a lot of films use the same technique. But that moment in Morocco just throws me off. Did they massively over-saturate the colours of something, I don't know, but everything about this moment, from the set to the actors's faces look like modeling clay.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @JamesBondKenya, you mean the shot of CG Hinx during the car chase that looks like a PlayStation 1 character wasn't realistic enough for you??

    Could someone get a screencap for this, please? All this talk about CGI/stunt faces fascinates me because I never really see it in the films. Thnx.

    I have a really good eye for cgi and so it bothers me a lot in films but if you don't see it then don't try to because it's better to not see it and enjoy the film more
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited June 2017 Posts: 5,970
    The one moment in SP that looks really fake/weird to me is when Bond/Blofeld/Madeleine are walking in the glass corridor in the Spectre HQ (the 'I thought you came here to die' scene). It's really strange, because right after that is Blofeld's control room, and it looks very impressive with all those monitor screens. I don't even have this reaction in the PTS, because apart from the yellow filter, the surroundings look real, the car chase is shot very well (despite the lack of intensity), and even the rear-screen projection in the helicopter battle in Mexico is fine, because a lot of films use the same technique. But that moment in Morocco just throws me off. Did they massively over-saturate the colours of something, I don't know, but everything about this moment, from the set to the actors's faces look like modeling clay.

    I understand what you mean by this. My theory is that either the producers and Mendes wanted Hoyte Van Hoytema for his work on Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy so they used that kind of look for the film or Hoytema just took inspiration from his previous work on TTSS and thought it was fitting, but with a James Bond film, the cinematography needs some scale to it. I don't just think its just the cinematography either, I feel it's some of the production design, it's not as well utilised as Skyfall did, you really felt you were travelling the world and seeing the beauty of it, whereas Spectre only had a few shots where you truly felt it, with most of the shots feeling tight, small scale and in some cases CGI-y, like you say. I think they should have tried to get Deakins back because he did some wonderous work on Skyfall and I think could have done something really interesting and groundbreaking with Spectre.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @JamesBondKenya, you mean the shot of CG Hinx during the car chase that looks like a PlayStation 1 character wasn't realistic enough for you??

    Could someone get a screencap for this, please? All this talk about CGI/stunt faces fascinates me because I never really see it in the films. Thnx.

    I have a really good eye for cgi and so it bothers me a lot in films but if you don't see it then don't try to because it's better to not see it and enjoy the film more
    I agree and I too have an eye for this type of nonsense. There was way too much of it in SP for my liking and I hope not to be able to notice it in B25. They've been getting sloppy and cutting corners since QoS (when I first started to notice it in the Craig era) and it's time to scale back.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    @bondjames
    Yes I'm pleased to say that in CR I can't rember any obvious cgi and or green screen unlike all the other Craig films. Less so QOS but there is a lot in skyfall and SPECTRE, those films look like plastic.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @JamesBondKenya, you mean the shot of CG Hinx during the car chase that looks like a PlayStation 1 character wasn't realistic enough for you??

    Could someone get a screencap for this, please? All this talk about CGI/stunt faces fascinates me because I never really see it in the films. Thnx.

    I have a really good eye for cgi and so it bothers me a lot in films but if you don't see it then don't try to because it's better to not see it and enjoy the film more

    Yeah but I feel like I'm missing something :).
  • Posts: 676
    @bondjames
    Yes I'm pleased to say that in CR I can't rember any obvious cgi and or green screen unlike all the other Craig films. Less so QOS but there is a lot in skyfall and SPECTRE, those films look like plastic.
    Campbell made a point of doing things for real and only using CGI when necessary. Another reason CR is a superior Bond film.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Milovy wrote: »
    @bondjames
    Yes I'm pleased to say that in CR I can't rember any obvious cgi and or green screen unlike all the other Craig films. Less so QOS but there is a lot in skyfall and SPECTRE, those films look like plastic.
    Campbell made a point of doing things for real and only using CGI when necessary. Another reason CR is a superior Bond film.

    But they did stuff for real in SPECTRE it just feels like they did some stuff for real and then did cgi over it for some reason
  • PalmyraSharkRIPPalmyraSharkRIP California
    Posts: 9
    Mr Hinx should have been a hunchback, his nails should have been 8 inches long, and he should have spoken just like Bane but with way more lines and a lisp. He should also have been Gary Busey.
    Think I hit on all the points.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Milovy wrote: »
    Let's not forget who was right here all along, after all. Throughout the entire film Bond is the one with the decisive leads connecting the dots between the attacks worldwide, the proposed bombing in Mexico and the organization of SPECTRE, amongst other threads. And he does all this with barely any help, so much so that at one point M even says in no uncertain terms that Bond has to do this mission all on his own, which he of course does before they all come together for the finale and get Blofeld in chains.
    Is Bond right to behave the way he does, though? That's a major issue I have with Spectre - I find it hard to be on Bond's side throughout. He doesn't share intelligence with his boss; he selfishly pursues his own mission; he endangers Madeleine's life (the film even acknowledges that, which feels very icky to me); he puts Q's and Moneypenny's jobs at risk; he doesn't kill Blofeld. He is generally a dick to people and makes poor decisions. He only learns about the attacks from a news report that Q shows him. Only later does he learn that the attacks are related to Oberhauser.

    Yeah, Bond does some good in the end, but only through contrivance. The film could have concluded the same way - Nine Eyes shut down and Blofeld arrested - through several other sequences of events. Story could have started with Bond sharing Dench video and Spectre ring with M, M asking Bond to investigate C... Maybe some tension between them on which is more important. Bond follows his gut, tracks the ring to Rome and hears mention of Nine Eyes at the Spectre meeting - and so on.

    Anyway...

    What I wanted to talk about in this post: I don't think Spectre's ending works. It's all heavily staged, of course: Bond shoots down a helicopter, it lands neatly on the bridge, Blofeld's stuck crawling on the bridge, Bond meets him, then M and Madeleine take their places on either side of Bond to symbolize his two choices. I think the real error here is giving Bond a choice. Or at least dramatizing his choice this way.

    I have no issue with Bond's decision to walk away from the service - I mean, it's not properly set up (only suggested to him in passing by Moneypenny and Madeleine) and it's nothing I ever wanted to see in a Bond film, but fine. But why dramatize it through a decision to kill or not kill Blofeld? Sorry, but after Blofeld takes credit for all Bond's pain and so much terror worldwide, Bond choosing not to kill him just turns Bond into an idiot. And the implications are really queasy - Blofeld will get another chance at terrorizing the world, and Madeleine is still not safe, all thanks to Bond!

    The solution here, I think, is to take the decision out of Bond's hands. The police surround Bond on the bridge and tell him to lower his weapon - the police don't know who he is, and Bond's not going to just execute a criminal in the street. M could even tell Bond that if he pulls the trigger, he'll be charged with murder ("00 program" was shut down). Bond decides that the authorities can handle Blofeld and then leaves the spy game for good.

    Not that I would find any of this more engaging. But at least Bond's decision wouldn't be so hard to stomach.

    I don't agree with everything you said, but that's actually a pretty good post.

    I have no issue with Bond going rogue, I like the fact that he acts this way because he trusts no one (I know some find it tiring and I agree it's been overdone with the last movies).

    Regarding Bond not killing Blofeld, the reason Bond does not kill him is because he remembers the words of Mr. White and Madeleine, and even Vesper's from Casino Royale. They all address the fact he's an assassin and he's been doing that for all his life. Bond can choose whether to kill or not to kill Blofeld, but he eventually decides not to because he truly wants to change. The fact it was his choice is what makes it meaningful.
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