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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    @Creasy47 I guess that's what the USA chose. so yeah, hardly thoughts, no prayers.

    "hardly thoughts, no prayers" Ouch. But deserved.
  • edited September 2018 Posts: 3,566
    So now we have this: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/opinion/trump-white-house-anonymous-resistance.html An unelected cabal of White House insiders have taken it upon themselves to overrule the President's wishes and intentions, and are essentially deciding on their own what policies our orangutan-in-chief will be allowed to move forward with. And they're doing it all for our benefit, of course. Pundits on all sides of the partisan divide have condemned this practice. The words "coup d'etat" are being tossed about. Can't we just get back to nice normal impeachments or Article 25 solutions or something? Oh, I forgot: it's the Republican Party at work. Democracy be damned, full speed ahead with the extra-legal efforts. But in November: Vote Blue, no matter who.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Better dead than red?
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited September 2018 Posts: 12,480
    Article 25 is particularly difficult to invoke (which is good). I read that it says the president must not be conscious or cognizant in order to invoke it. If that is true (I have not studied this), it won't work. But he will be removed or resign.

    However, things are moving along nicely, yes. Voting still crucial, of course. But the wheels of justice (Mueller) are turning and things are heating up a lot, not a little.

    Yes the anonymous op-ed in NY Times is driving Trump crazy, which is not a bad thing. The process is not an actual coup, no. This is getting deserved criticism, while at the same time pushing things along in a good way. Also Woodward's book this week. So Trump has both things to deal with and is not handling anything well (again, good for this process of removing him asap).



  • Posts: 19,339
    Another 3 innocent lives gone in Cincinnati,just simply going to work.

    Disgusting.
  • edited September 2018 Posts: 11,425
    I fear that the NYT op ed actually just plays into Trump's hands and strengthens him.

    I do wonder about the motivations of the author. Could it even have been written with the approval of the Trump White House? It certainly plays into their narrative of the deep state etc.

    What did the author actually think they were going to achieve? To me it smacks of a ploy to win sympathy for Trump and perhaps even provides the justification for sweeping purges of the government. His base would certainly now happily go along with pretty much anything he does to 'drain the swamp'. And he'd have the populist justification for doing it as well.

    I'm sure you Americans are better placed to judge the situation than I am, but it just seems to get more worrying by the day.
  • edited September 2018 Posts: 3,566
    Yes, the situation is more worrying by the day; no, I don't think the NYT op-ed strengthens 45's hand. It reinforces the narrative that Trump doesn't have any idea what he's doing and his own staff doesn't really like or respect him. Yes, the motivations of the author are certainly worth questioning...but even Trump's "base" is starting to desert him at this point. Some of the talking heads at Fox Faux News are starting to criticize him -- and once he's lost them, he's pretty much lost any control he once had of the electorate.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,007
    Getafix wrote: »
    I'm sure you Americans are better placed to judge the situation than I am, but it just seems to get more worrying by the day.

    It really is - it's a complete train wreck that gets worse and worse week by week, day by day. Like Beatles noted, the criticism from Fox has ramped up in the last couple of weeks, and when that's happening, you know something is dangerously wrong.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited September 2018 Posts: 17,823
    Did you breathe today?
    What gasses?
    That's not the question, did you breathe today?
    If you could tell me what mix of molecules you may be thinking of...
    It's a yes or no question: did you breathe today?
    There are a lot of substances in our atmosphere... *

    * How to say yes without saying yes
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
  • chrisisall wrote: »
    Did you breathe today?
    What gasses?
    That's not the question, did you breathe today?
    If you could tell me what mix of molecules you may be thinking of...
    It's a yes or no question: did you breathe today?
    There are a lot of substances in our atmosphere... *

    * How to say yes without saying yes

    It ain't working. Brett Kavanaugh has been caught lying to the Senate about 3 different times in his testimony, making what should have been a slam dunk confirmation into a real nail-biter. Nothing is certain anymore, certainly not in Trumpworld...but BK may very well have screwed himself out of a lifetime appointment. And hey, how about those white power symbols on national TV just behind him, hm? Way to let the mouth-breathers know what your side is really thinking! https://www.newsweek.com/zina-bash-trolling-attorney-flashes-white-supremacist-sign-during-kavanaugh-1110264
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
  • Posts: 7,507
    Getafix wrote: »
    I fear that the NYT op ed actually just plays into Trump's hands and strengthens him.

    I do wonder about the motivations of the author. Could it even have been written with the approval of the Trump White House? It certainly plays into their narrative of the deep state etc.

    What did the author actually think they were going to achieve? To me it smacks of a ploy to win sympathy for Trump and perhaps even provides the justification for sweeping purges of the government. His base would certainly now happily go along with pretty much anything he does to 'drain the swamp'. And he'd have the populist justification for doing it as well.

    I'm sure you Americans are better placed to judge the situation than I am, but it just seems to get more worrying by the day.


    The theory describe is trending actually, but how logical it might be, I don´t believe it for one reason: Trump´s ego. We are talking about a man who rates his image and pride above anything. That he would order or accept such complete mockery of himself is basically unthinkable!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    jobo wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I fear that the NYT op ed actually just plays into Trump's hands and strengthens him.

    I do wonder about the motivations of the author. Could it even have been written with the approval of the Trump White House? It certainly plays into their narrative of the deep state etc.

    What did the author actually think they were going to achieve? To me it smacks of a ploy to win sympathy for Trump and perhaps even provides the justification for sweeping purges of the government. His base would certainly now happily go along with pretty much anything he does to 'drain the swamp'. And he'd have the populist justification for doing it as well.

    I'm sure you Americans are better placed to judge the situation than I am, but it just seems to get more worrying by the day.


    The theory describe is trending actually, but how logical it might be, I don´t believe it for one reason: Trump´s ego. We are talking about a man who rates his image and pride above anything. That he would order or accept such complete mockery of himself is basically unthinkable!

    You are 100% right here.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited September 2018 Posts: 12,480
    @Thunderfinger hitting many buttons there. One helpful Syrian explains it all to us in this video; okay. Thanks. So ... White Helmets are the bad guys, America being there at all is bad (and our host here wishes Alzheimers on us, too, because we deserve it due to our interference), other countries interfering is bad, and we should learn that all the truly bad guys will escape and invade Europe as immigrants and bring violence to European countries while promoting Sharia law, etc.

    There are plenty of diverse views on Syria and the White Helmets. We shall, of course, need to read more than one viewpoint and make up our own minds.
    This one below you can scroll quite a bit, several articles attached also.

    And from another source, also using other sources:




  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    As for the op-ed, again, it has hurt Trump; not helped him. Of course his hardcore base will be saying that he is playing 8th dimensional chess, such a stable genius that we just don't see what's really going on behind the scenes to rid our country of the DeepState.
    Trump will hold more rallies and start railing against his base (that has already started). Basically, he is in his last stretch and knows it.

    Kavanaugh being confirmed is a possibility, but he can be impeached. Public record now that he lied under oath, for one thing.

    Roll on September in America. Changes (mostly good ones, I believe) are coming.
  • edited September 2018 Posts: 4,622
    The op-ed is a joke. It's just more evidence of how desperate those who can't accept the results of the 2016 election are.
    The op-ed is just what it purports to be. Something cooked up by the NYT and and an anonymous malcontent working somewhere in the administration.
    Trump predictably, in his usual bellicose way, has been using the incident to whip up support and scorn his opponents.
    The noise from both sides will continue until the midterms which will probably result in a continued Republican controlled Senate. The House I can't really call. Could go either way.
    Meanwhile you can see Democrats grandstanding the Supreme Court Hearings to get their faces out there for a run in 2020.
    My favourite was Mr "I am Spartacus" Even Don Lemon had to roll his eyes at that. Maddow though probably lapped it up. Hannity and Carlson laughed their asses off.
    At least the Spartacus thing was funny, but please the Article 25 stuff was too stupid for any serious commentator to address.
    Are these Dems really that dim? Not likely. The hyperbole bar has been set so high that nothing is too whack.

    Meanwhile I see useless Mayor Rahm Emmanuel has decided not to run for re-election in Chicago.
    The shooting total is on pace for 3000 by year's end. The gang violence is out of control.
    He hasn't got a chance against the law-and-order types that will run against him. Both Republicans and fellow Democrats.
    It was under Rahms hapless watch that the Detective ranks were decimated and political corruption, (which includes police corruption)went through the roof.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    timmer wrote: »
    The op-ed is a joke.
    No, it's an attack. Watch Trump go even more nuts than ever.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    The op-ed is not a joke. But it's good it got under Trump's skin, sure.

    The Kavanaugh hearings are important. None of that is grandstanding. Supreme Court justice is critically important. So no, the facts coming out about his stance on issues, his lies under oath, all of that is very important indeed. We need more pressure on this, not less. Our democracy is at stake, and the GOP is going along with much of Trump in order to install very conservative judges. This particular candidate must be stopped. If he is confirmed, it is shameful and he needs to be impeached. Fortunately, there are grounds for that. But I hope our Congress pulls it together enough to not even confirm him.

    As I mentioned earlier, Article 25 is very hard to enact (as it should be). It need not come to that. Trump's time will be over, either through resignation or other means, before 2020. These are historic times, for sure. No time to be complacent.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    Well, since Kav committed perjury I guess he's gonna be relieved of duty once Trump is ousted.
    On a lighter note, PlaidShirtGuy!
    d7zTrR5.jpg
  • Posts: 12,514
    Pretty sure both of my cats are as well.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited September 2018 Posts: 12,480
    Well, if Kavanaugh gets in, then he needs to be impeached and removed asap, yes.

    The Plaid Shirt Guy was escorted out and told to never come back, for some reason. ;)
    Trump not controlling his rallies the way he wants to these days. Sad.
  • The comments I see here really remind me of when the roles were reversed when Obama was in office. No disrespect intended, but some folks become so blinded by their disdain for the other side, that the fail to recognize the extremely narrow lense that they're looking through. I hate how polarized politics have become in this nation, but it will continue so long as things remain unchanged so I suppose I should suck it up.
  • Posts: 4,622
    Democracy under attack. One should then be paying attention to the Congressional Intelligence committee grilling that very senior DOJ official Bruce Ohr has been undergoing the last few weeks, regarding what is very clearly a fraud perpetrated on the FISA court, to obtain the warrants that launched the Special Council Mueller investigation in the first place.
    Even CNN is on this. They can't ignore it. They are still a news channel, even if they have a rather obvious political bias, albeit egged on by the administration's relentless attacks on both their bias and credibility.
    Ohr has been exposed as having collaborated with the ex-Mi6 agent Chris Steele on the discredited phony Russia dossier, put together in collaboration with Russian actors in a bid to influence the 2016 election, when it became clear that Trump could not only win the nomination, but also the election. Gasp!
    The Hillary controlled DNC was long ago exposed as having financed the Dossier via PR firm Fusion GPS.
    The details of the whole sordid affair have been steadily reported over the last year, but have come to a head with the recent revalations from Ohr that both the Comey-McCabe led FBI and the DOJ failed to apprise the FISA court that the dossier was not only politically commissioned and financed, but most importantly deemed not credible.
    The FBI had even fired Steele as a credible source, yet Ohr has admitted to still using the Dossier as justification for the FISA warrants, used to justify the Mueller probe into Russia collusion.
    The Mueller probe from Day One, has been tainted by the Dossier flimflammery, associated with what amounts to a Hillary DNC backed fraud, perpetrated on the FISA court. Not to mention very obvious DNC Russia collusion to influence the election.
    The tragic irony being that this is what the Mueller probe was commissioned to investigate in the first place - Russia collusion.
    House Republicans have been screaming at Mueller for almost a year to investigate DNC collusion with the Russians via Fusion GP and the Steele dossier.
    But Mueller's partisan mandate was always to get Trump. So he's caught in the middle.
    Meanwhile House Republicans are now demanding that Trump declassify the relevant FISA warrants.
    Being as the FISA court conducts its deliberations in secret, this would be a big deal.
    Trump though will weigh the political implications and act accordingly.
    Sadly, no-one actually cares about abuse of judicial process, fraud perpetrated on the FISA court, or flagrant politicizing of senior ranks of both the FBI and DOJ etc.
    Rather its cutthroat DC swamp politics.
    Political advantage is the prize.
    The Hillary DNC is among the slimiest political machines ever. DNC financed Fusion GPS got going on the phony Steele Trump Dossier even before the election.
    The goal of course was always political - to stop Trump from winning, and failing that to drive him out of office "by any means".
    Talk about democracy under attack.
    The 2016 election was supposed to be about Hillary versus Jeb Bush. What a choice that would have been. Swamp Thing 1 versus Swamp Thing 2, but Trump spoiled the party, not once but twice.
    The last two Presidents to roil the swamp to such an extent, both took a bullet, so Trump better watch out.
    As 2020 nears, real good close protection probably need be employed, maybe food tasters too.
    There is no plausible scenario whereby Trump doesn't finish his term and go for a second term.
    Floating the 25th amendment last week, shows how fevered and desperate the left has become.
    Impeachment is a purely political process. There is no political precedent here. There is no political cover. Allan Dershowitz has expounded at length on this very subject. He even has a book out.
    All that remains for the Mueller probe is to find a face-saving way to wrap. If it doesn't, Republican lawmakers will demand that it expand it's scope into DNC Russia collusion or that a second special council be launched to investigate DNC Russia collusion.
    That's easily accomplished by dragging the demoted Bruce Ohr before special counsel along with all the fired senior FBI personnel implicated in the Dossier debacle, most notably the disgraced former Assistant Director, Andrew McCabe, not to mention Peter Strzok, Lisa Page.
    In fact a Grand Jury was empowered just last week to investigate the fired McCabe for his admitted and corroborated lying regarding the veracity of the discredited dossier.
    The sad part in all this is that the Washington elites, and that includes both Republicans and Democrats, our ruling elite, have become so arrogant, that they think they can just repudiate the American people and impose their will.
    To hell with elections.
    Only one President has ever been impeached. Actually two, but I don't count Clinton as that was a political stunt, that House Republicans pulled to fully slime the horndog occupant of the White House. As slimey as the Clinton Lewinsky thing was, it hardly justified overturning the democratic will of the American people, who put him in office. It's a fundamental basis of the Constitution that the people are supposed to have a say.
    The Democrat controlled Senate appropriately overturned the House vote and Republicans paid the price for their arrogance in the midterms.
    Nixon was only forced out because his own Party turned on him. He had no political cover. He had been fully exposed by the Watergate tapes as complicit in criminal action to influence the election.
    Nixon was effectively impeached.

    @chrisisall yes the anonymous NYT op-edwas an attack, but IMO it's also a joke.
    Both Trump and his opponents are attempting to make political hay of it. Fair enough, but what is
    very bizarre about the op-ed, is that the author, assuming an actual author exists, maintains that " many of the administrations policies have already made America safer and more prosperous", yet others such as himself should get the credit. Huhh?
    Well if things are going so well, why upset the applecart? Just keep running the country from behind the scenes and let POTUS continue to think he's in charge.
    It's not like Anonymous wants credit. He values his anonymity and that of that of the other brilliant operators working behind the scenes with him. Eye roll.
    Clearly his motive is to marginalize POTUS. He's throwing a bone to those who like what the administration has accomplished, in a bid to sound even-handed. The whole blather from start to finish is disengeuous.

    I realize people don't like Trump's style.Not only the snowflake types, but also those who prefer a less raucus political discourse.
    If I was liberal or left-leaning, I'd be looking to vote him out in 2020, and get my own guy. Maybe even Mr. I Am Spartacus. He seems to habe tossed his toga in the ring.
    But truth is Trump is basically a Reagan conservative but with big bombast.
    Trump checks all the small c boxes.
    He's been diligently going about enacting his agenda (unless of course, it's actually ANON and his SHADOWy pals. Only the NYT knows) which is essentially 6 pronged;
    lower taxes
    less burdensome regulation
    stonger border enforcement
    lower medical insurance costs
    fairer trade deals
    appointment of judges faithful to their article 3 duties under the Constitution

    But with Trump you get the braggadocio too, which can be infuriating if you're not down with the program.
    But Trump does love America. His passion is real.
    He loves the spotlight, the speeching, the rallying. He wants a prosperous America. He wants opportunity for all. All true entrepreneurs do. Prosperous ventures need others to prosper as well. All economic activity is interconnected.

    The deep state though, the establishment, the swamp, whatever you want to call it, is more concerned with prosperity and power for themselves.
    Trump has tapped into this populist sentiment.
    Trump better watch it though. Again,two other notorious swamp roilers, JFK and Ronny Reagan each took a bullet.
    Not surprisingly they are the only two Presidents since WW2 that I've found at all inspiring.
    FDR was a solid leader too.
    Looking ahead to 2020, I am encouraged that "I am Spartacus", seems to have tossed his sandals into the ring.
    This could be a battle Royale.
    The Orange Emperor, Blowhard Maximus
    versus
    fellow full-sail windbag, I Am Spartacus!

    The debates should be Pay-Per-View!

  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Jeez, and you talk about CNN being biased...
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited September 2018 Posts: 17,823
    Never has Nazi-like fascism been a part of American political drama as now. 1933 Germany much? Anyone here know history, or just excellent cold-war Bond spy films? Clinton, Bush, and Obama sucked to different degrees, but THIS guy is an American Mussolini in the making. Luckily, his expiration date is coming up... by legal proceedings or simple mental sickness...
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited September 2018 Posts: 12,480
    Well, we could take the time to debunk much of what you wrote, Timmer, but I'll just say of course you are entitled to your opinion at let it go at that. I think you are Canadian, is that correct? I think all people across the globe have an opinion about American politics, especially these days and I'm glad of that, actually. I don't mind at all hearing from other countries' citizens concerning American politics. I do find it interesting to hear what others are thinking. With Canada being on one of our borders, surely many Canadians are closely following American politics.

    You are correct, democracy is under attack - but you and I will disagree on what that means. We have learned that has happened, in a much larger scale than previously guessed at, since 2015/2016. At least. And it is ongoing. We don't do coups in the U.S. Our system will either work or it wont. It is moving far too slowly for many of us, but it is moving.

    So the Mueller investigation is proceeding correctly, legally, and is making very substantial progress. Mueller has taken down mobsters before; he is very experienced and the right person for this job. He is proceeding methodically and successfully so far. If for some reason Trump lasts until 2020, then he simply won't be re-elected. I am trusting in our system even though the Congress is not standing up the way they should. But yes, we have progress, and I'm grateful for that.

    Lots of things happening in many arenas: foreign policy, trade/tariffs, environmental protection, oh and trying to extend the amount of time that immigrant children can be kept in detention separated from their parents to "indefinite." Many unjust things are being tried, forced, and not all make the current headlines. Ongoing concerns for all American citizens.

    As for when Obama was president, he had so many hideous attacks, many of them racist, and it was continual. The lynching memes were only one small part of that. So many lies about him. He served us for eight years, was not perfect, but was a genuine patriot who did his best and had personal integrity. We can disagree with some things, certainly. We may have wished for different policies, etc. But Obama served with dignity for the office.

    There is no comparison to Trump in any of our past presidents, GOP or Democrat. But we either learn from this, or our democratic govt dies.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited September 2018 Posts: 12,480
    Happy to hear about other world events here.

    But having said that, I do want to mention one other thing about to hit the U.S.: Hurricane Florence. It apparently will arrive at possibly still a Cat. 4. So incredibly dangerous. I'm thinking of everybody in its way. It's supposed to hit North Carolina head on late Thurday night. South Carolina obviously going to get slammed, too.

  • edited September 2018 Posts: 7,507
    JamesStock wrote: »
    The comments I see here really remind me of when the roles were reversed when Obama was in office. No disrespect intended, but some folks become so blinded by their disdain for the other side, that the fail to recognize the extremely narrow lense that they're looking through. I hate how polarized politics have become in this nation, but it will continue so long as things remain unchanged so I suppose I should suck it up.


    What I find extremely disturbing and offensive are claims like this. The attempt to pretend that this is just "another normal presidency" and that the reactions are all about partisanship. No, this is not a normal situation! We have a president with dangerous fascist tendencies surrounded by criminals in his cabinet who is creating havock with US relations and shock horror all around the world. I could list all the things that are unpresedented and disturbing about this President, both actions and his personality, but it would make me busy for the whole day and frankly, why do I have to? You are supposed to be grown up people with an ability to see and analyze for yourself! If you want to blindly pretend nothing exceptional is going and let this lot ruin the foundations of your country, it is your free will to do so...
  • edited September 2018 Posts: 4,622
    JamesStock wrote: »
    The comments I see here really remind me of when the roles were reversed when Obama was in office. No disrespect intended, but some folks become so blinded by their disdain for the other side, that the fail to recognize the extremely narrow lense that they're looking through. I hate how polarized politics have become in this nation, but it will continue so long as things remain unchanged so I suppose I should suck it up.

    Yes of course, we do have to suck it up as that is democracy.
    We can't just demand impeachment every time our guy loses or float absurdities like the invocation of the 25th amendment, which really shows how unhinged many on the left have become.
    I wouldn't expect anyone with liberal leanings to support Trump, as he's definitely not your guy.
    However if you do lean conservative he is getting the job done, or at least making the effort. I'm not sure anyone ever actually gets the job done.

    Democracy under attack.That's cliched rhetoric.
    Votes are cast. Votes are counted. People take office. People get voted in and out. Judges are appointed etc. The game goes on. Democracy is just or fine enough which is all it ever really is.
    What infuriates the left is that Trump is actually doing what he was elected to do, what he promised to do. Trump's crime is that he got elected.
    I don't think Hillary and her gang are any threat to democracy either. She may be Queen of the swamp, although deference to Nancy Pelosi here.
    Rather, Hillary and hubby are cutthroat, win-at-all-cost politicians. The big prize for them is power.
    It's on the record that the DNC collaborated with former Brit spy Steele and his Russia friends to perpetrate a fraud on the FISA court ie they didn't tell the FISA judges that the dossier had been deemed to be phony by the FBI.
    The dossier was originally a political stunt concocted to stop Trump from winning. It failed. The acquisition of the FISA warrants, under demonstrably fraudulent representations, prompted the creation of theMueller Special Council which was Plan B -ie if elected, then get him out of office.
    The Mueller probe is a political stunt. The irony of the whole bloated exercise is that it opened the door for Congress to expose DNC-Russia collusion.
    Democracy is not actually under attack here. This unfortunately is how power politics is played.
    The Clintons might be the dirtiest political operators in American history. It would be real hard to top them.
    As is well known, Hillary even had her own illegal private email servers while serving as Secretary of State. Hillary was exposed. FBI Comey dutifully had to investigate, basically to cover his own butt, which infuriated her. She accuses him of unfortuitous political timing.
    The timing did not help her campaign of course.
    But then Comey let's her off the hook with a half-assed investigation, which infuriates Republicans.
    Poor Comey is now hated by everyone.
    This is life in the swamp. Who gets prosecuted, investigated etc is all governed by politics.

    There is actually no way to fix things other than by draining the swamp, but that's become a cliched phrase.
    The most obvious solution is to drastically reduce the size of the federal government. The federal bureaucracy is basically what is being accused as being the so-called deep state.
    If you make the trough smaller, you attract less pigs.
    On a political level, I think there are two directions worth pursuing. Ban conflict donors and really drill down on better pro-market pro-competition anti-trust systems.
    As it stands now, being on the right congressional committee is a license to print dollars.
This discussion has been closed.