007: What would you have done differently?

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Comments

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Birdleson wrote: »
    She was better than most.

    Because she was a character, not a caricature, which is what too many of the Brosnan women were (whose name wasn't Elektra King).
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Not made the film at all.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Not made the film at all.

    I think I'd agree.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    I don’t mind Bond Girls who are almost as capable as Bond as long as they’re not prude uptight partisan type of women like Madeleine Swann.

    Amen.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @birdleson, keeping with the OP's thread, @MadeleineSwann gave seven days/film. Can we change the title to Casino Royale?

    Thanks!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Go for it!!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    75% better @Birdleson
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Unlike most on here, I really enjoy the majority of DIE ANOTHER DAY (2002), in fact I absolutely love large chunks of it. Still, I used to let the horrible elements ruin the whole experience for me, often placing DAD at the bottom of my rankings. What I have learned to do is just kind of block that stuff out (as I do with OP, TLD and several others) and have a much finer experience. But, the flaws are there. It will never be a great Bond film. But it could have been, with a few major, and a few small, changes.

    1. Remove the character of Jinx entirely from the script. I find pretty much everything up until the Ice Palace to be superb, exciting Bondian cinema; the PTS, the Title Sequence (I've even learned to love Madonna's Title Track), Bond in prison, his attempt at dignity in the face of execution (a great Bond moment!), the M scene, Cuba, the clinic, the sword fight, most everything. Except any bit involving Jinx; the crap dialogue, the horrid suggestive humor that severely damages every Brosnan entry, the CGI dive, her very presence. Just take her out of the movie and nothing suffers. Her character can be completely written out and written around. Like Dr. jones in the previous film; don't replace, omit. Leave Miranda as the sole love interest, and she still dies. Much better film.

    2. Remove the CGI, ice laser, surfing, tsunami thing. Just cut it out.

    3. Cut the film to slightly under two hours and have the finale occur at the ice palace. Some resolution that doesn't involve, major CGI effects, ironman suits, airplanes, Icarus, puns or Jinx.

    Minor Changes:
    -No Madonna cameo
    -Cut the scene with Moneypenny and the magic goggles
    -No invisible car
    -Rewrite the bit so M isn't giving Frost a hard time for not fraternizing with fellow employees. That seemed very out of character.
    -Lose Mr. Kil

    Other pluses:
    -Great score
    -Pierce is at his best
    -The non-CGI action scenes are excellent
    -With the noted exception, the cast is great

    I'd keep the Moneypenny scene and the invisible car. Canton argue with anything else you wrote. Well said.
  • Posts: 2,918
    Birdleson wrote: »
    It will never be a great Bond film. But it could have been, with a few major, and a few small, changes...

    I agree with every sentence! Your changes would have definitely fixed the film. I'm not a big Brosnan fan, but I think he gave his best performance in DAD, and, as you say, the film is quite good before the ice palace. Cutting Jinx and the CGI, and advancing the finale, would have worked wonders.

  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I'm glad we agree. I'm also glad that they shied away from confirming the MR novel connection by naming Frost's character Gala Brand. I still have hopes that a more faithful adaptation of MOONRAKER will come about, and I didn't want that great character wasted unnecessarily. They could title it OPERATION: MOONRAKER, or even DRAX.

    It's easy to forget amongst all the daftness in it they actually did mine a bit of Fleming for it..
  • I second the changes @Birdleson proposed, as well as the argument that it isn't nearly as bad a Bond film as its reputation suggests. It is simply that the missteps are so garish, and the film is unfortunate reduced entirely to its weaker elements rather than people appreciating the quality it does bring to the table, namely Tamahori's lively direction and Brosnan's best performance in the role.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Couldn't agree more with the changes, either. I've always said that DAD may have its issues - and what film doesn't? - but at least it never commits the sin of being boring. I quite enjoy myself every time I watch it, and with the lack of Jinx, a tightening of all the bad CGI, and a better script, I think it'd rank a lot higher for me.
  • DrClatterhandDrClatterhand United Kingdom
    Posts: 349
    Die Another Day was Bond's cinematic nadir. It's almost as though it was necessary in order push EoN in the right direction. I can't find anything good in it, other than it lead to Casino Royale. I felt embarrassed to be a Bond fan when i was in the cinema. It was a cringe fest.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Die Another Day was Bond's cinematic nadir. It's almost as though it was necessary in order push EoN in the right direction. I can't find anything good in it, other than it lead to Casino Royale. I felt embarrassed to be a Bond fan when i was in the cinema. It was a cringe fest.

    That's how I see SP.

    I probably enjoy SP a little more than you but I agree.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    SF provided me with that embarrassment, putting me amidst a trainwreck like nothing else before.
  • Posts: 7,430
    Die Another Day was Bond's cinematic nadir. It's almost as though it was necessary in order push EoN in the right direction. I can't find anything good in it, other than it lead to Casino Royale. I felt embarrassed to be a Bond fan when i was in the cinema. It was a cringe fest.

    +1.
  • edited December 2018 Posts: 19,339
    SF provided me with that embarrassment, putting me amidst a trainwreck like nothing else before.

    Momma Mia !!!

    :-O
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited December 2018 Posts: 15,423
    barryt007 wrote: »
    SF provided me with that embarrassment, putting me amidst a trainwreck like nothing else before.

    Momma Mia !!!

    :-O
    Yep. I felt like this the moment I left the theater.

    FlQPBzU.gif

    Never thought I’d ever have such disdain for a Bond film with passion, yet stranger things have happened in this world.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    @Birdleson
    I largely agree. Everything you mention would improve the film immensely. Still there are things I would liek to be changed:

    Take the diamonds out of Zao's face. It is just ludicrous.
    Get rid of all that gene therapy nonsense.
    Don't let Bond manipulate his own heart beat.
    Do without the pseudo-emotional relationship between General Moon and his son.

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited December 2018 Posts: 6,304
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Unlike most on here, I really enjoy the majority of DIE ANOTHER DAY (2002), in fact I absolutely love large chunks of it. Still, I used to let the horrible elements ruin the whole experience for me, often placing DAD at the bottom of my rankings. What I have learned to do is just kind of block that stuff out (as I do with OP, TLD and several others) and have a much finer experience. But, the flaws are there. It will never be a great Bond film. But it could have been, with a few major, and a few small, changes.

    1. Remove the character of Jinx entirely from the script. I find pretty much everything up until the Ice Palace to be superb, exciting Bondian cinema; the PTS, the Title Sequence (I've even learned to love Madonna's Title Track), Bond in prison, his attempt at dignity in the face of execution (a great Bond moment!), the M scene, Cuba, the clinic, the sword fight, most everything. Except any bit involving Jinx; the crap dialogue, the horrid suggestive humor that severely damages every Brosnan entry, the CGI dive, her very presence. Just take her out of the movie and nothing suffers. Her character can be completely written out and written around. Like Dr. jones in the previous film; don't replace, omit. Leave Miranda as the sole love interest, and she still dies. Much better film.

    2. Remove the CGI, ice laser, surfing, tsunami thing. Just cut it out.

    3. Cut the film to slightly under two hours and have the finale occur at the ice palace. Some resolution that doesn't involve, major CGI effects, ironman suits, airplanes, Icarus, puns or Jinx.

    Minor Changes:
    -No Madonna cameo
    -Cut the scene with Moneypenny and the magic goggles
    -No invisible car
    -Rewrite the bit so M isn't giving Frost a hard time for not fraternizing with fellow employees. That seemed very out of character.
    -Lose Mr. Kil

    Other pluses:
    -Great score
    -Pierce is at his best
    -The non-CGI action scenes are excellent
    -With the noted exception, the cast is great

    I like so many of these changes. They just make sense.

    I think I'm in the minority but I kind of like the VR Moneypenny/Bond scene at the end--basically, "OMG, is he really going to kiss Moneypenny after all these years?"

    Maybe it would play better if they weren't macking on each other quite so much.

    And...stay with me here...if Jinx didn't exist and Miranda died, it might be more believable if Bond returned to the office in a down mood and kissed MP (in VR). Then on to the next mission a la SF.

    I agree with @DrClatterhand that maybe DAD was essential to clear out the underbrush and give us a more serious Bond again.

    I love this thread.
  • Many good thoughts here, and it's a treat to see this thread resurrected. My quick thoughts:

    What to Change:
    -As with many of the Moore-era movies, the problem is not one single thing, but the accumulation of them. No single ingredient in DAD needs to be fatal, but together they really add up. So then, EON, pick only one of the following: an invisible car; an ice palace; a space laser; a rocket sled chase; a man with diamonds in his face; the gene therapy thing; big-wave surfing into North Korea.

    -Get rid of the 'dream machine.' It looks stupid and doesn't help the narrative.

    -OK, I'll say it: the god-damned bloody kite surfing scene. That looked crap at the time and has only gotten worse. Just have Broz hanging over the edge and rescued by the rope on the 'chute, or have him fall gently to the ice using the 'chute, or something. But it's hard to believe a team of professional film-makers sat around in screenings and said, "yes, this looks good. This is the best we can do." Cut it out.

    -Lose the stupid plastic body armour that Graves wears in the climax.

    -I can live with JInx, I suppose. Berry's a good enough actress, surely, and she and Broz have a bit of chemistry, so surely there's some way to salvage something good here by trimming her role and having a script doctor overhaul that cringe-inducing dialogue.

    -The title song doesn't really work for me, though I think it still prefer it to some of the gauzy junk of the '70s.

    -M is strangely catty in this film, being unnecessarily short or bitchy for reasons I don't understand. Let's fix the lines and the reading, please.

    -What the hell is Michael Madsen doing in this movie?

    -The dialogue needs brushing up all around. In many places they've gone for what a 14-year-old thinks is innuendo: "I take it Mr. Bond has been explaining his big bang theory?" What does that even mean? Replace or remove, please.

    -The heart-stopping thing. What?

    As for the things I wouldn't change:

    -There's a pretty good Bond movie buried in here somewhere. The first half mostly speaks for itself and deserves to stay.
    -The PTS is good fun, and well done.
    -Graves is a good villain and Stephens has some fun chewing the scenery.
    -The Hong Kong hotel lobby scene is brilliant. All-time classic.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    Birdleson wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    @Birdleson
    I largely agree. Everything you mention would improve the film immensely. Still there are things I would liek to be changed:

    Take the diamonds out of Zao's face. It is just ludicrous.
    Get rid of all that gene therapy nonsense.
    Don't let Bond manipulate his own heart beat.
    Do without the pseudo-emotional relationship between General Moon and his son.

    Those last two I could take or leave, but I love the diamonds embedded in the face, and I really like the gene therapy clinic scene.

    The clinic scene is a highlight indeed but does it need to be a gene therapy clinic? It could simply be some kind of plastic surgery. I find the whole transformation from Moon to Graves rather pointless. Why on earth would a Korean man want to look like a British snob? How is it possible to take over a completely new identity within a few years without anyone - including the secret services - noticing it?
    In GE, the somewhat similar idea with Trevelyan worked much better because he was only operating in the background as the head of the syndicate during the collapse of the Soviet Union. This was still plausible enough.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    GBF wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    @Birdleson
    I largely agree. Everything you mention would improve the film immensely. Still there are things I would liek to be changed:

    Take the diamonds out of Zao's face. It is just ludicrous.
    Get rid of all that gene therapy nonsense.
    Don't let Bond manipulate his own heart beat.
    Do without the pseudo-emotional relationship between General Moon and his son.

    Those last two I could take or leave, but I love the diamonds embedded in the face, and I really like the gene therapy clinic scene.

    The clinic scene is a highlight indeed but does it need to be a gene therapy clinic? It could simply be some kind of plastic surgery. I find the whole transformation from Moon to Graves rather pointless. Why on earth would a Korean man want to look like a British snob? How is it possible to take over a completely new identity within a few years without anyone - including the secret services - noticing it?
    In GE, the somewhat similar idea with Trevelyan worked much better because he was only operating in the background as the head of the syndicate during the collapse of the Soviet Union. This was still plausible enough.

    DAD was trying to do MR the novel, kind of sort of, with Drax's transformation. They only succeeded in being offensive and pointless.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    echo wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    @Birdleson
    I largely agree. Everything you mention would improve the film immensely. Still there are things I would liek to be changed:

    Take the diamonds out of Zao's face. It is just ludicrous.
    Get rid of all that gene therapy nonsense.
    Don't let Bond manipulate his own heart beat.
    Do without the pseudo-emotional relationship between General Moon and his son.

    Those last two I could take or leave, but I love the diamonds embedded in the face, and I really like the gene therapy clinic scene.

    The clinic scene is a highlight indeed but does it need to be a gene therapy clinic? It could simply be some kind of plastic surgery. I find the whole transformation from Moon to Graves rather pointless. Why on earth would a Korean man want to look like a British snob? How is it possible to take over a completely new identity within a few years without anyone - including the secret services - noticing it?
    In GE, the somewhat similar idea with Trevelyan worked much better because he was only operating in the background as the head of the syndicate during the collapse of the Soviet Union. This was still plausible enough.

    DAD was trying to do MR the novel, kind of sort of, with Drax's transformation. They only succeeded in being offensive and pointless.

    Yep.
  • edited December 2018 Posts: 591
    Hey guys, she's back! I'm sorry for my hiatus, been quite a busy year. Just graduated from university and now back earning that money. I hope you all had a great christmas. Let's celebrate by kicking this thread off again. So happy you're all still enjoying it.

    Let's do it. I know most of us just love it. It's is Daniel Craig's first ever James Bond adventure, CASINO ROYALE.

    151023-lendof-james-bond-03_ecavax

    This is your chance to say whatever you would have differently wit the film, so things like; plot change, character additions or subtractions. Anything you like. People will be given the chance to give their responses within 7 DAYS from today (this may change so let me know if you want me to extend the time for longer) until the discussion moves on to the next James Bond film. This will run until we reach SKYFALL as a discussion for SPECTRE already exists.

    Hope you guys enjoy hearing everyone's responses!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited December 2018 Posts: 9,509
    Yeah!!!! welcome back!!! And congrats on finishing school!!!
  • mybudgetbondmybudgetbond The World
    Posts: 189
    I would get rid of that awful “Rolex?, Omega!” Exchange on the train between Vesper and Bond.

    Make the whole realisation about Mathis clearer.

    And that’s it. It’s absolutely perfect otherwise;-)
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    Just two little nitpicks.

    Rewrite the dialogue between Bond and Vesper at the health clinic. That little finger BS is so cringey.

    Keep the deleted scene where Bond asks the desk clerk about Gettler.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,589
    Id keep the extended PTS in Pakistan.
  • Posts: 2,402
    I would cut out Rolex/Omega (obviously) but more importantly I'd remove the "X million in the pot" lines during the poker game. Especially the last time; if it has been repeatedly stated that $150 million is the total amount up for grabs, and every player at the table has gone all in, who in the audience is stupid enough to not know how much money is in the pot?
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