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Was Fleming's Bond "suave"?

BAIN123BAIN123
edited April 2011 in Literary 007 Posts: 11,189
This is an issue which people seem uncertain about. Some say he was, some say he wasn't. However he is certainly described as a "gentleman" on several occasions in the books.

Also, with Ian Fleming being the rather pompus chap he was, I don't entirely believe he envisioned a character who was completely devoid of sophistication:



In short, I think the character was suave but perhaps not AS suave as he is in the movies.

Anyway, it would be interesting to know people's views.
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Comments

  • BounineBounine
    edited April 2011 Posts: 2,599
    Great video there Bain. I remember watching it at the Fleming exhibit at the Imperial War Museum. Doesn't Fleming just have the classic, typical upper class voice from that era!

    "Suave: describes a man who is very polite, pleasant and usually attractive, often in a way that is slightly false."

    I didn't realise one had to be very polite and pleasant to be suave. I think Fleming's Bond in that case is relatively suave but there is room for improvement. I always thought suave was similar to debonair. Fleming's Bond is certainly debonair and rather sophisticated.
  • jaguar007jaguar007
    Posts: 638
    Quoting BAIN123: I don't entirely believe he envisioned a character who was completely devoid of sophistication:
    Bond certainly has a certain amount of sophistication and I also think you are correct about Fleming's Bond not being as suave as he is in the movies. I also don't think the book Bond is as debonair as in the films. He wears a particular suit much like a uniform. He looks very well dressed by todays standards, but really in the books he dressed similar to your standard businessman in the 1950s.

  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    I think Bond certainly indulged and led a lifestyle that was unlike a lot of people's at the time. I suppose that was the attraction of the books: the fancy cars, the casino's, the beautiful women.

    He was certainly confident with what he did (I suppose he had to be).
  • The_Preacher711The_Preacher711
    Posts: 139
    I always got the feeling that 'Fleming Bond' was acting the part of a suave, city playboy. And that wasn't in fact the 'real him'.

  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Interestingly, Noel Coward (Fleming's neighbour in Jamacia) thought the same about the author. He was a show-off.

  • saunderssaunders Living in a world of avarice and deceit
    Posts: 987
    Was the literary James Bond suave? Well the three characteristics of a suavest are being confident, elegant and charming.

    Confident: Bond was certinally outwardly confident in his own abilities as a 00 agent, though unlike the film incarnation he would often have grave doubts about what his profession was doing to his soul and also he often expressed uncertainty about many normal things outside his tightly controlled world, for instance in FYEO Fleming wrote:

    "...Bond didn't like personal questions. He didn't know what to answer, nor what the truth was. He had not got a wife or children- had never suffered the tragedy of a personal loss. He had not had to stand up to blindness or a mortal disease. He had absolutely no idea how he would face these things that needed so much more toughness than he had ever needed to show..."

    These are clearly not the thoughts of a supremely confident man.

    Elegance: Bond in the films is usually dressed stylishly and gracefully usually with the help of the greatest fashion houses, Fleming's character dressed in exactly the same sort of clothes as the author, dark blue suits, black knitted ties, Sea Island cotton shirts in white or dark blue, heavy white silk shirts, single breasted dinner jackets, black moccasin shoes (never lace ups!) and pyjama tops. So while Bond was reasonably smartly dressed he dressed for comfort rather than to impress with style. His small and comfortable flat in a converted Regency house in a little square off the King's Road is also decorated in a gracefull style that is apparently similar to Fleming's London homes (they even share the same taste in wallpaper), and while their choice of cars differs (Fleming preferred the American Thunderbirds compared to Bond's Bentley's) they both choose their brands for their speed and power rather than their stylish and graceful aesthetics. So if Bond can be described as elegant it is possibly more by default than design and was certainly not an adjective used by any of the Bond heroines to describe him.

    Charming: The literary Bond had charm without a doubt, he made strong friends with characters as diverse as Felix Leiter and Marc Ange Draco, but his list of friends would seem to be limited, and the only known out of work social meetings he has undertaken were with members of the Intelligence community (Bill Tanner and the CIA London chief). Likewise Bond makes female relationships very easily but most of his known conquests have used the adjectives 'dangerous' and 'cruel' rather than 'charming' and generally the relationships form due to the extraordinary circumstances rather than simply from a seduction, also it's worth noting that these relationships tend not to last much longer than the missions themselves. Once again little is known about his romances outside of work though it's clear he actively looks for married women to avoid any possible prolonged romantic entanglements.

    So on reflection I would suggest that Bond is not the suave character of the films, but perhaps his like-ability is more to do with his other even more worthwhile characteristics



  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    That's a good assessment Saunders and I would certainly agree that, at heart, Bond was a very troubled man. However, as you say, he certainly gave the outward IMPRESSION of being confident. He effectively enjoyed life and certainly took advantage of the luxuries it had to offer (e.g. smoking, alcohol, cars, golf, women etc), however he had a conscience. Unlike his villanous counterparts he recognised killing as the ugly business it was and hence (rarely) took pleasure out of it (though there are some excepetions).

    Regarding women, I think when it when it came to someone he actually LIKED, he could be very charming and actually quite caring (e.g. his sympathetic words to Vesper when he knows she is crying).

    Ordinarily Bond disliked the tedious process of seduction however this changed when it came to certain people (e.g. Vesper, Gala Brand). He knew the best places to wine and dine them, much like his creator.

    I suppose it comes down to perception. I remember reading a sentence in an introduction to Casino Royale:

    "James Bond was a killer but a damm suave one"
  • connerybondconnerybond
    Posts: 163
    Terence Young thought so.
  • lalala2004lalala2004
    Posts: 162
    I agree with it being different than we see in the films, especially considering Connery's early portrayal.

    Fleming's Bond to me has more human qualities, and while he is suave, he isn't perfect and it isn't all effortless for him.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,584
    Quoting lalala2004: Fleming's Bond to me has more human qualities, and while he is suave, he isn't
    perfect and it isn't all effortless for him.
    B-) Yep, typically the hero in literature suffers more, feels pain more and is generally less perfect than the eventual movie incarnation.
  • SharkShark Banned
    Posts: 348
    Quoting lalala2004:
    Fleming's Bond to me has more human qualities, and while he is suave, he isn't perfect and it isn't all effortless for him.
    I think a lot of this is down to the simple fact the most of Fleming's Bond novels take place within a stream of consciousness narrative. All of the existential quandary and self-doubt, is never really in the dialogue. In film Bond, that would have to be expressed non-verbally - through the actor's face.
  • St_GeorgeSt_George Shuttling Drax's lovelies to the space doughnut - happy 40th, MR!
    edited April 2011 Posts: 1,699
    I think it's fair to say that, so far, Craig's Bond hasn't been particularly suave at all - especially in CR. Fair enough, he's starting out, so hasn't become the 'cinematic Bond' yet; maybe the suave side'll come out more in future adventures, we'll have to see.

    And, must say, this lack of suaveness (along with the vulnerability, cold detachment and, to paraphrase Camille, ruthless efficiency), in Craig's interpretation certainly reminds me greatly of Fleming's Bond...
  • BounineBounine
    edited April 2011 Posts: 2,599
    I do so hope Craig doesn't become the cinematic Bond but stays more in line with the literary figure who is obviously more flesh and blood. I'll add more interesting (obviously) to that too.
  • lalala2004lalala2004
    Posts: 162
    Quoting Shark: I think a lot of this is down to the simple fact the most of Fleming's Bond novels take place within a stream of consciousness narrative. All of the existential quandary and self-doubt, is never really in the dialogue. In film Bond, that would have to be expressed non-verbally - through the actor's face.
    Indeed, this is why I find books to be far superior to films...
  • chuck007chuck007
    Posts: 172
    Once i read some article that actually the cinematic Bond's personality (suave,sophisticated, elegant or o) was Kevin Mclory and Jack Whittingham contributions to the character (Thunderball script), before their involvements Bond was just an agent that drink and smoke too much...

    is it true?
  • lalala2004lalala2004
    Posts: 162
    Quoting chuck007: Once i read some article that actually the cinematic Bond's personality (suave,sophisticated, elegant or o) was Kevin Mclory and Jack Whittingham contributions to the character (Thunderball script), before their involvements Bond was just an agent that drink and smoke too much...



    is it true?
    Ummm....Have you seen the previous three films? Do you think that's true?

    That makes no sense at all...
  • CipherCipher
    Posts: 128
    I think chuck007's referring to the screenplay McClory and Whittington co-wrote with Fleming around 1960 before EON acquired the rights to the novels. I'm not that familiar with the McClory v EON legal stoush but I think he did make some claim to creating the cinematic Bond.
  • lalala2004lalala2004
    Posts: 162
    Well, he may have written that original TB screenplay, but he didn't have a hand in DN, FRWL or GF as far as I know, and considering how well adapted they were from the novels, I doubt the idea to use an accurate interpretation of Fleming's character came from him.

    When you just see Bond in the novels, there is definitely a suaveness and classiness to the character apart from the inner battles he has in his mind. It makes sense that he would be portrayed that way...
  • chuck007chuck007
    Posts: 172
    Quoting Cipher: I think chuck007's referring to the screenplay McClory and Whittington co-wrote with Fleming around 1960 before EON acquired the rights to the novels. I'm not that familiar with the McClory v EON legal stoush but I think he did make some claim to creating the cinematic Bond.
    Yes that's exactly what i want to discuss, the screenplay McClory and Whittington co-wrote (Thunderball) , some said that script for Dr No, FRWL, and Thunderball take some element from Thunderball (Spectre, Bond's suave character etc)...
    here's the link about DANJAQ-McClory court in 2000 (United States Court of Appeals,Ninth Circuit).:
    http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1040539.html

    in those you would see McClory claim that he originated the “cinematic James Bond character,” one who was witty and dashing, rather than brooding and alcoholic, as he describes the literary James Bond.
  • lalala2004lalala2004
    Posts: 162
    Quoting chuck007: in those you would see McClory claim that he originated the “cinematic James Bond character,” one who was witty and dashing, rather than brooding and alcoholic, as he describes the literary James Bond.
    I disagree with his assessment of the literary character, however. I find him to be sophisticated and quick-thinking.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited April 2011 Posts: 11,189
    Quoting lalala2004: I disagree with his assessment of the literary character, however. I find him to
    be sophisticated and quick-thinking.
    I think so too. Bond certainly had his problems but got on with the job at hand.

    I never got the impression he was an alcoholic, however he certainly liked a drink. In fact I read somewhere that Fleming once said Bond should never be drunk. Not sure whether its true though.

    This is quite interesting and highlights a lot of Bond's "sophisticated" tastes.

    http://www.pallmallclub.com/bond1.html
  • St_GeorgeSt_George Shuttling Drax's lovelies to the space doughnut - happy 40th, MR!
    edited April 2011 Posts: 1,699
    Quoting lalala2004:
    Quoting Shark: I think a lot of this is down to the simple fact the most of Fleming's Bond novels take place within a stream of consciousness narrative. All of the existential quandary and self-doubt, is never really in the dialogue. In film Bond, that would have to be expressed non-verbally - through the actor's face.
    Indeed, this is why I find books to be far superior to films...
    Shark's point there, methinks, is one of the reasons why original novels often remain better than their cinematic adaptations. However, I feel one or two of the Bond flicks are as good if not better than their source novels...
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 440
    I wouldn't describe literary Bond as particularly suave myself
    he's not outgoing enough for that
    because we are effectively inside his head while reading the books, we are able to get a greater insight into his character than is possible watching a film
    to me he comes across as conservative, polite, determined, honourable and honest (within the parameters of his profession)
    he's a loner who maintains a cool detached façade, however once he puts his guard down and lets someone in, he goes to the other extreme and is prepared to put it all on the line for a friend or lover
    also on most occasions his dialogue is not particularly sophisticated or witty
    so I don't think most people who meet him in the books would describe him as suave or debonair
    IMO people would want to be around him because of the air of purpose and competent confidence he exudes, rather than his relaxed confidence and amusing conversation
    I don't see him as a raconteur

    to be described as 'suave', do you have to be 'suave' all the time, i.e. it's your 'natural state' or 'default setting', or just when you have a particular purpose in mind?
    I guess that's the element of 'falseness' another post alluded to
    Bond can be charming when he wants to be, but is he a naturally charming person?

    for instance, I have the impression Roger Moore is a suave and charming person 24/7
    while I imagine Sean Connery is not, although he can be
    (and probably the same for the rest of the Bonds)

    PS this site is irritatingly slow when I try to do anything, even just view a different page, why is that?
  • sHell_Is_HeresHell_Is_Here
    Posts: 30
    I feel that the literary Bond is externally suave, but internally troubled. The adjective "suave" inherently adds a level of superficiality to the charm that 007 is known for, which suits the literary Bond. He is debonair when he must be, but reverts to an efficient yet brooding nature when he is left to his own devices.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited April 2011 Posts: 11,189
    Another word that has popped into my head is "gallant". According to the dictionary "gallant" is described as "smartly or boldly stylish" or "brave and daring".
    These terms could be attributed to our boy (it may be by default rather than anything else) however I'm not so sure about "courteously attentive, especially to women".

    Then again Bond has showed compassion to women in the past (Vesper, Gala, Pussy, Tracy etc). I think the character could be very cold on the one hand and quite compassionate on the other.

    Another word is "dashing". I remember seeing an interview with Noel Coward (Fleming's neighbour in Jamacia) in which Coward said:

    "I think that James Bond's was Ian's dream fantasy of what he would like to be, you know...ruthless and dashing. It's got, as Ian had, a schoolboy quality".


    Grrr he's too complex.
  • lalala2004lalala2004
    Posts: 162
    Quoting BAIN123: Another word that has popped into my head is "gallant". According to the dictionary "gallant" is described as "smartly or boldly stylish" or "brave and daring".
    Oooh, that's a good word!

    I'm gonna thesaurus suave (Can thesaurus be a verb? No matter...)

    From www.thesuarus.com:

    Synonyms: affable, agreeable, bland, civilized, cordial, courteous, courtly, cultivated, cultured, diplomatic, distingué, fulsome, genial, glib, gracious, ingratiating, obliging, oily, pleasant, pleasing, polished, polite, politic, refined, smooth-tongued, sociable, soft*, soft-spoken, sophisticated, unctuous, urbane, well-bred, worldly
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,584
    Oh dear, many of those words seem a little unBond-like.

    And yes lalala, why shouldn't thesaurus be used as a verb? :)
  • St_GeorgeSt_George Shuttling Drax's lovelies to the space doughnut - happy 40th, MR!
    Posts: 1,699
    Quoting NicNac: And yes lalala, why shouldn't thesaurus be used as a verb? :-)
    Because it would be an absolute b****r to conjugate. ;)

    @lala2004 @BAIN123 Indeed, I've always felt 'gallant' tends most often to suggest 'chivalrous/ courteous to women', which certainly can be said to decribe Bond, but definitely not at all times...
  • jaguar007jaguar007
    Posts: 638
    Quoting BAIN123: According to the dictionary "gallant" is described as "smartly or boldly stylish"
    I never really felt Fleming's Bond was all that stylish (this is more of a movie characteristic). Yes he was fastidious in his taste, but he usually wore the same thing, good quality clothes but somewhat conservative.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited April 2011 Posts: 11,189
    Nonetheless, I think he did dress well, and yes, his attention to detail was superb. I suppose many average working/middle-class readers of the 50s would have envied Bond's use of dinner jackets, silk shirts, satin ties and (expensive) rolex watches - especially since money was still tight for some people following the war.

    It all sounds rather upper class and "stylish" to me anyway.

    :/
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