Who should/could be a Bond actor?

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  • Posts: 11,425
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Funny how race trumps anything else.

    Laz and Brozza couldn't be less British really. I suspect Laz hates the Brits (like most Aussies) and Brosnan has spoken openly about how odd it was for him as an Irishman to be playing a Brit on screen.

    Dev Patel and Golding are arguably (not sure there's actually much of an argument) more British than either Laz or Brozza.

    Patel is sadly rather underused. He showed he can really act in Lion and I had been expecting to see more of him. Bond is perhaps a stretch but it's a shame there isn't more colour blind casting in the movies. There's often no reason a particular character has to be a specific race - would be good if casting directors approached theirs jobs from this perspective.

    It's not a question of 'beeing' British as an actor, it's about looking and acting like one. It's about believeability, and I guess both Laz and Bros pulled that off. Bond is the kind of Brit that basically doesn't exist anymore. So either they keep him in the vein of what he was/ is supposed to be allthough in reality few Brits still are like that, or they let him change with the times. Personally I don't really like the latter option because you Always lose something of the essence of the character. In my country they re-made 'Yes, Minister into a modern-day version, including modern-day office-dress for civil servants and use of language. It doesn't work, it's not funny. Even though 'Yes, Minister' has been an extremely good guide for me on how to work with civil servants.

    Race comes into it because Bond has always been white in the books and on screen. He’s a white character. The same goes for the other way......a white Othello, Shaft, Blade, Black Panther, Axel Foley is just stupid. This is because those characters are black and should stay that way. Bond is an English institution and there is no need to change the character to suit a pointless PC agenda.

    English? Try telling Sir Sean that. Or Fleming for that matter - thought Bond was half Scottish and half Swiss?

    I'm not sure Brozza ever convinced as British - not for me at least. He was always too mid-Atlantic. No one in the UK speaks like that.

    Laz is borderline. I give him a break because I love his performance so much.



  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Getafix wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Funny how race trumps anything else.

    Laz and Brozza couldn't be less British really. I suspect Laz hates the Brits (like most Aussies) and Brosnan has spoken openly about how odd it was for him as an Irishman to be playing a Brit on screen.

    Dev Patel and Golding are arguably (not sure there's actually much of an argument) more British than either Laz or Brozza.

    Patel is sadly rather underused. He showed he can really act in Lion and I had been expecting to see more of him. Bond is perhaps a stretch but it's a shame there isn't more colour blind casting in the movies. There's often no reason a particular character has to be a specific race - would be good if casting directors approached theirs jobs from this perspective.

    It's not a question of 'beeing' British as an actor, it's about looking and acting like one. It's about believeability, and I guess both Laz and Bros pulled that off. Bond is the kind of Brit that basically doesn't exist anymore. So either they keep him in the vein of what he was/ is supposed to be allthough in reality few Brits still are like that, or they let him change with the times. Personally I don't really like the latter option because you Always lose something of the essence of the character. In my country they re-made 'Yes, Minister into a modern-day version, including modern-day office-dress for civil servants and use of language. It doesn't work, it's not funny. Even though 'Yes, Minister' has been an extremely good guide for me on how to work with civil servants.

    Race comes into it because Bond has always been white in the books and on screen. He’s a white character. The same goes for the other way......a white Othello, Shaft, Blade, Black Panther, Axel Foley is just stupid. This is because those characters are black and should stay that way. Bond is an English institution and there is no need to change the character to suit a pointless PC agenda.

    English? Try telling Sir Sean that. Or Fleming for that matter - thought Bond was half Scottish and half Swiss?

    I'm not sure Brozza ever convinced as British - not for me at least. He was always too mid-Atlantic. No one in the UK speaks like that.

    Laz is borderline. I give him a break because I love his performance so much.



    Bond was half Scottish and half Swiss, but essentially brought up as an Englishman. I'm sure Connery could understand that, especially as we are now talking about Dev Patel who is English with Indian heritage.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited February 2019 Posts: 5,131
    Getafix wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Funny how race trumps anything else.

    Laz and Brozza couldn't be less British really. I suspect Laz hates the Brits (like most Aussies) and Brosnan has spoken openly about how odd it was for him as an Irishman to be playing a Brit on screen.

    Dev Patel and Golding are arguably (not sure there's actually much of an argument) more British than either Laz or Brozza.

    Patel is sadly rather underused. He showed he can really act in Lion and I had been expecting to see more of him. Bond is perhaps a stretch but it's a shame there isn't more colour blind casting in the movies. There's often no reason a particular character has to be a specific race - would be good if casting directors approached theirs jobs from this perspective.

    It's not a question of 'beeing' British as an actor, it's about looking and acting like one. It's about believeability, and I guess both Laz and Bros pulled that off. Bond is the kind of Brit that basically doesn't exist anymore. So either they keep him in the vein of what he was/ is supposed to be allthough in reality few Brits still are like that, or they let him change with the times. Personally I don't really like the latter option because you Always lose something of the essence of the character. In my country they re-made 'Yes, Minister into a modern-day version, including modern-day office-dress for civil servants and use of language. It doesn't work, it's not funny. Even though 'Yes, Minister' has been an extremely good guide for me on how to work with civil servants.

    Race comes into it because Bond has always been white in the books and on screen. He’s a white character. The same goes for the other way......a white Othello, Shaft, Blade, Black Panther, Axel Foley is just stupid. This is because those characters are black and should stay that way. Bond is an English institution and there is no need to change the character to suit a pointless PC agenda.

    English? Try telling Sir Sean that. Or Fleming for that matter - thought Bond was half Scottish and half Swiss?

    I'm not sure Brozza ever convinced as British - not for me at least. He was always too mid-Atlantic. No one in the UK speaks like that.

    Laz is borderline. I give him a break because I love his performance so much.



    I never said English in terms of the Character (but Fleming was English and MI6 is based here - Bond also fights for Queen and Country and we, the English formed the United Kingdom)? Before anyone jumps on this comment, Scotland (technically) has been under British rule since 1707.

    I'm well aware of the Scottish and half Swiss Bond Heritage, but ok a British Institution. I stand corrected.

    None of the above detracts from the fact that the character is white. Dev Patel (as an example) is British Asian and thus unsuitable. The trick is in the name too....Bond - Traditional English name dating back many 100's of years no doubt, Patel is of most commonly of Indian origin I am sure.

  • Posts: 6,709
    About enunciation, did anyone notice how Craig said "kick my ass" in the Oscars ceremony? It just sounded so American, and not at all British. Was it my ears? Is he getting too New Yorker? With Rachel in the house, with that strong Brit accent of hers, I doubt he'll change his, right? It just sounded like "esse", and nor "arse". Sorry about the lingo, it's just the way it is.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited February 2019 Posts: 5,131
    Again, the same goes for the other way......a white Othello, Shaft, Blade, Black Panther, Axel Foley is just stupid. This is because those characters are black and should stay that way.

  • Posts: 19,339
    Oh dear,a silly article from 'Esquire' :

    Olivia Colman's Odds To Play James Bond Have Just Been Massively Slashed .

    As a freshly-minted Oscar winner and Hollywood’s new favourite Brit, Olivia Colman will have the pick of roles for the foreseeable future. With that in mind, she should probably pursue the job that will annoy the largest amount of Twitter egg avatars all at once.

    We’re talking about Bond, of course. In the 48 hours since she beat Glenn Close to the Best Actress gong, Colman’s chances of inheriting Daniel Craig's blood-soaked tux have been slashed to 20/1.

    Unlikely, sure – but the idea isn’t without its merits. Many fans feel the next Bond should inherit more of the earlier movies’ wit and humour, something Colman is more than capable of pulling off.

    BBU62dt.img?h=541&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=1788&y=822

    That’s not to mention her gritty turns in the shows like The Night Manager and Accused. She also wore a tuxedo in public once, which automatically puts her in the Bond race anyway. That’s just how it works, sorry.

    Plus: imagine all the poorly-attended protests and incandescent, widely-ignored petitions. It would be brilliant.

    It goes without saying that she still lags some way behind figures like Tom Hardy and Richard Madden in the race. The odds of her turning up in Bond 25 in any capacity are much better though, standing at 5/2.

    That being said, Betway’s Alan Alger believes she’s destined to take over Jodie Whittaker as Doctor Who.
    Alger said: “Olivia Colman’s win at the Oscars completed a remarkable journey for the British actress and, if the past few months are anything to go by, she’s set for plenty more success.“

    Even if she doesn’t get her 00s, her national treasure status is in no doubt. Her teary speech at the Academy Awards received a standing ovation, and she’s already got a huge year ahead of her with the Fleabag and The Crown on the horizon.
  • Posts: 9,846
    look unless we are doing another reboot (which at that rate do Forever and a Day then Colonel Sun and Trigger Mortis and do the post fleming novels in some kind of order)

    Bond should stay white as craig is get this WHITE



    Sorry if bond changes skin color then the code name theorists win
  • Posts: 6,709
    Risico007 wrote: »
    look unless we are doing another reboot (which at that rate do Forever and a Day then Colonel Sun and Trigger Mortis and do the post fleming novels in some kind of order)

    Bond should stay white as craig is get this WHITE



    Sorry if bond changes skin color then the code name theorists win

    True. So true.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Univex wrote: »
    Risico007 wrote: »
    look unless we are doing another reboot (which at that rate do Forever and a Day then Colonel Sun and Trigger Mortis and do the post fleming novels in some kind of order)

    Bond should stay white as craig is get this WHITE



    Sorry if bond changes skin color then the code name theorists win

    True. So true.

    If Bond changes skin colour then that's me finished with it.
  • Posts: 6,709
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    Risico007 wrote: »
    look unless we are doing another reboot (which at that rate do Forever and a Day then Colonel Sun and Trigger Mortis and do the post fleming novels in some kind of order)

    Bond should stay white as craig is get this WHITE



    Sorry if bond changes skin color then the code name theorists win

    True. So true.

    If Bond changes skin colour then that's me finished with it.

    Me too. It’s bad enough he’s blonde nowadays. Saved by Craig’s charisma and quality as an actor. But no more blondes, please, nor ginger, nor anything other than Fleming’s general description of the character.
  • I think Leslie Jones would make a great James Bond and Melissa McCarthy would be a great Blofeld.
  • Posts: 6,709
    Mack_Bolan wrote: »
    I think Leslie Jones would make a great James Bond and Melissa McCarthy would be a great Blofeld.

    Damn!!??!! ;)
  • edited June 2022 Posts: 937
    .
  • JeremyBondonJeremyBondon Seeking out odd jobs with Oddjob @Tangier
    Posts: 1,318
    Agree with @Risico007 and @Univex . That's me three.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    James Bond is not a black guy, Indiana Jones is not an Indian guy, and Blade is not a white guy. But it's ok for females to be doctors. Also Caucasians are the most charming ;)

    Well, if you mean timelords who reincarnate, yes. But Bond is an ever so slightly different character.
  • edited June 2022 Posts: 937
    .
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    Risico007 wrote: »
    look unless we are doing another reboot (which at that rate do Forever and a Day then Colonel Sun and Trigger Mortis and do the post fleming novels in some kind of order)

    Bond should stay white as craig is get this WHITE



    Sorry if bond changes skin color then the code name theorists win

    True. So true.

    If Bond changes skin colour then that's me finished with it.

    Me too. I wouldn’t watch it.....I’d boycott it.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    James Bond is not a black guy, Indiana Jones is not an Indian guy, and Blade is not a white guy. But it's ok for females to be doctors.

    Agreed!
  • Posts: 2,917
    Univex wrote: »
    But no more blondes, please, nor ginger, nor anything other than Fleming’s general description of the character.

    So no Roger Moore then?
    So either they keep him in the vein of what he was/ is supposed to be allthough in reality few Brits still are like that, or they let him change with the times. Personally I don't really like the latter option because you Always lose something of the essence of the character.

    If you're going to have James Bond operate in the 21st century, you are going to automatically lose something of the original essence of the character. The Bond of the Craig and Brosnan films is already different in many ways from Fleming's original or Connery's.
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Race comes into it because Bond has always been white in the books and on screen. He’s a white character. The same goes for the other way......a white Othello, Shaft, Blade, Black Panther, Axel Foley is just stupid. This is because those characters are black and should stay that way. Bond is an English institution.

    English no longer means white, and no decent English institution in the 21st century is race exclusionary. The Othello argument is weak. Putting aside the fact that the role was played by white actors for almost 400 years, race is an integral part of Othello's identity and integral to the story, and he's treated differently on account of it. How often does that happen in a Bond movie? Race was only an important part of Bond's identity when Britishness still implied whiteness.

    I am not in favor of changing Bond's race just for PC's sake or for the sake of racial engineering. But if there is an actor who is British (or at least from the British commonwealth, like Lazenby), and has the suaveness and toughness required for the role, then he should not be excluded from consideration because of his race. That would be against the old fashioned British values of fair play and common sense.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited February 2019 Posts: 5,131
    Bond is a white Brit. Period. Ian Fleming wrote the character that way and film depicted him that way since inception. The surname Bond does imply ‘whiteness’ . Just like Patel implies an Indian ethnicity.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    @Revelator of course taking Bond to the modern times is already changing him in image, behaviour, etc. The question is, should you take it any further? To me, Craig may not exactly look like Bond, but his performance comes very close to Fleming's creation. In that way he brings something back that was lost.
    Still, the chances of an Etonite who happened to be too good at sports, too restless to study and there on the benefit of a rich family member beeing other then white is easily too far fetched. I'm not saying it will Always be like that, but for now it's a bit too improbable.
    Personally I don't like what they've done with Felix, but that one was lost after Dr. No anyway. Now he happens to be an ally from the CIA. He has nothing in common with Fleming's Felix.
  • edited February 2019 Posts: 377
    It’s time Gabriel Iglesias was offered the role of Felix Leiter.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    @Revelator of course taking Bond to the modern times is already changing him in image, behaviour, etc. The question is, should you take it any further? To me, Craig may not exactly look like Bond, but his performance comes very close to Fleming's creation. In that way he brings something back that was lost.
    Still, the chances of an Etonite who happened to be too good at sports, too restless to study and there on the benefit of a rich family member beeing other then white is easily too far fetched. I'm not saying it will Always be like that, but for now it's a bit too improbable.
    Personally I don't like what they've done with Felix, but that one was lost after Dr. No anyway. Now he happens to be an ally from the CIA. He has nothing in common with Fleming's Felix.

    Great post. +1.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited February 2019 Posts: 5,131
    Would you have Colin Firth as Shaft? No. Would you have Hugh Grant as the Black Panther? No. Would you have Robert Downey Jr as Axel Foley? No. Would you have Jason Stratham as Blade? No. Why....because they are black characters. Having Bond as anything other than a white Brit is just as silly, pointless and ludicrous.
  • It’s folks who have an agenda that want to cast Idris Elba as Bond. They’ve never read the novels or watched all the films, nor do they intend to.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Mack_Bolan wrote: »
    It’s folks who have an agenda that want to cast Idris Elba as Bond. They’ve never read the novels or watched all the films, nor do they intend to.

    Good point. They certainly aren’t Bond or Fleming purists that’s for sure.
  • Posts: 2,917
    Still, the chances of an Etonite who happened to be too good at sports, too restless to study and there on the benefit of a rich family member being other then white is easily too far fetched. I'm not saying it will Always be like that, but for now it's a bit too improbable.

    It would be far-fetched if Eton has an exclusively white student body, and from what I understand, at the moment it definitely doesn't, even excluding the number of foreign-born students. Britain has its share of rich non-white folks, like other multi-cultural societies.
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Bond is a white Brit. Period. Ian Fleming wrote the character that way and film depicted him that way since inception. The surname Bond does imply ‘whiteness’. Just like Patel implies an Indian ethnicity.

    And yet there are plenty of Black people with "white" names. And one of the "non-white" actors suggested for the role has the rather white-sounding name of Henry Golding. There multiple ways for a non-white or racially mixed person to end up with a white-sounding name.
    Furthermore, not even Fleming's Bond had his ethnicty set in stone. Before Connery, Fleming exclusively referred to the character as English, with not a hint of Scottishness. And the films have hardly been consistently faithful to Fleming.

    As I said earlier, my primary concern is that the best qualified British actor should receive the role, regardless of his race. Bringing up Shaft is pointless, since that character is defined by his race in a way that Bond isn't, unless one still regards Britishness as inseparable from whiteness.
  • edited February 2019 Posts: 6,709
    Revelator wrote: »
    Still, the chances of an Etonite who happened to be too good at sports, too restless to study and there on the benefit of a rich family member being other then white is easily too far fetched. I'm not saying it will Always be like that, but for now it's a bit too improbable.

    It would be far-fetched if Eton has an exclusively white student body, and from what I understand, at the moment it definitely doesn't, even excluding the number of foreign-born students. Britain has its share of rich non-white folks, like other multi-cultural societies.
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Bond is a white Brit. Period. Ian Fleming wrote the character that way and film depicted him that way since inception. The surname Bond does imply ‘whiteness’. Just like Patel implies an Indian ethnicity.

    And yet there are plenty of Black people with "white" names. And one of the "non-white" actors suggested for the role has the rather white-sounding name of Henry Golding. There multiple ways for a non-white or racially mixed person to end up with a white-sounding name.
    Furthermore, not even Fleming's Bond had his ethnicty set in stone. Before Connery, Fleming exclusively referred to the character as English, with not a hint of Scottishness. And the films have hardly been consistently faithful to Fleming.

    As I said earlier, my primary concern is that the best qualified British actor should receive the role, regardless of his race. Bringing up Shaft is pointless, since that character is defined by his race in a way that Bond isn't, unless one still regards Britishness as inseparable from whiteness.

    That's not the point. The point is that the author who created the character did so on very specific terms and details. Harry Potter isn't Black because JK Rowling described him as caucasian. So did Fleming for Bond. It's not a question fo Britishness, it's a simple question of characterisation by the author.
  • Posts: 3,333
    @Univex is right. Fleming described Bond as looking like Hoagy Carmichael as a reference point to Bond’s overall characteristics and ethnicity. Hoagy is caucasian for those that are unfamiliar with his race or are blind. We’ve had roughly 50 novels, 6 young Bond books, numerous video games and countless graphic novels, plus 26 movies, all portraying Bond as a Caucasian male. What’s there to not get that Bond is firmly established as white? All this nonesense about “Britishness” is immaterial when Fleming himself already set the Caucasian template over 60 years ago - which, I might add, has been followed explicitly since 1953. That’s already 66 successive and successful years of the character being officially established as a Caucasian male, leaving absolutely no doubt whatsoever his skin colour, race, or gender. These virtue signaling posts are getting tedious and repetitive and add nothing to the debate.
  • Posts: 2,917
    Univex wrote: »
    Harry Potter isn't Black because JK Rowling described him as caucasian. So did Fleming for Bond. It's not a question of Britishness, it's a simple question of characterisation by the author.

    Whiteness isn't anything but superficial characterization in most cases, and Rowling herself attacked the critics of the stage casting of a black actress as Hermione as "a bunch of racists."
    bondsum wrote: »
    Univex is right. Fleming described Bond as looking like Hoagy Carmichael as a reference point to Bond’s overall characteristics and ethnicity.

    And so far not a single James Bond has looked like Hoagy Carmichael, unless one thinks all whites look alike. Had Fleming been charge of selecting the screen Bond, he probably wouldn't have chosen Connery, who didn't quite fit his "template." Nor have the James Bond films been tremendously faithful to Fleming's vision in other respects. It's no surprise that 66 years ago a white author writing in a predominantly white country envisioned a white hero. The country has changed, along with the world, and the films have always kept up with the times.
    What’s there to not get that Bond is firmly established as white? All this nonesense [sic] about “Britishness” is immaterial when Fleming himself already set the Caucasian template over 60 years ago - which, I might add, has been followed explicitly since 1953.

    The Bond films have never strictly followed Fleming's template, and if were Fleming writing today his work would be different. Today race is not an important part of that template--it's no more important than whether a Bond actor has a comma of hair or a facial scar. It doesn't affect his character and the genuinely important attributes given to him by Fleming: his patriotism, bravery, occasional melancholy, enjoyment of luxury but need for a challenge, his determination to live life to the full, etc. But being British will always be a core part of his identity, and unless you think it's impossible to nonwhite and proudly British, then the race of the actor who plays a modern James Bond is inconsequential. Back in 1953, this wouldn't have been the case. But Bond films are made for the audiences of today. Saying it would go against Fleming's original vision means ignoring all the innumerable times the films have been untrue to it.
    These virtue signaling posts are getting tedious and repetitive and add nothing to the debate.

    Your bad faith characterization of those who disagree with you adds even less.
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