CharlieHebdo

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  • Don't forget that it is those who worship the very same God who fights the most between themselves. Because, well, geographically speaking, they are neighbors :)

    The only constant I'm aware of with religions is that women and gays are considered as inferior. A "peaceful demonstration" with only men in the picture, actually hides a lot of violence. Because usually it does not mean they're all gays :), but rather that women are not allowed there.


  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    patb wrote: »

    Judge the video purely on its own merits, it is so weird that I was trying to work out if it had been dubbed afterwards as a set up but it seems genuine, I like the guys in dayglow jackets who have just walked in off the building site and check the guy to the right in the front row who looks very uncomfortable .

    I'm sure some of the people in that video in the audience were intelligent. However when he asked about stoning and death they almost all raised their hands (apart from the fella on the right in the front row). Devout religioius believers indeed.

    However, it's quite irrational if they really thought about it. I've wondered how they reconcile this. This is what I'm curious about. I wonder how the speaker himself reconciles this - as he is the one who asked the question
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    edited February 2015 Posts: 45,489
    No need to reconcile it, as it is in the book that says it is not to be questioned..
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Like Bella Oxmyx said, "Hey! Don't make no cracks about the Book!"
  • edited February 2015 Posts: 2,015
    Note that there is not a single woman in the audience, it seems. And although the title of the video is about the stoning according to "the book", the super-clear answer is the one before : about how men and women should not sit together. It's less spectacular, but it shows the violence of every day, the one that is not only caused by the devout believers, the one relativists don't care about when they discuss the "cultural shock" and so on.

    Like the joke says "What is a moderate religious person ? Someone who removes the spare tire when he puts his wife in the truck".
  • Posts: 12,526
    From what I see continuously day in and day out regarding IS? This could be the next closest threat to a 3rd World War of sorts. Scary times indeed, Governments around the world need to step up!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    RE: women and religion, I think that is purely because these religions predate women's rights. When the books were written (whatever books we are referring to) women did not have full rights yet. So if one interprets the text literally, then they are not to be allowed into the clergy or even places of worship in some religions.

    The same applies to homosexuals, given prevalent views during that time.

    Again, I'm interested in how otherwise intelligent people reconcile faiths that have these restrictive texts with their common sense. Unless they are conveniently interpreting the texts more loosely in certain cases in order to make sense of the world as it currently is, it is totally illogical to me.

    The things religion teaches about communal values, taking care of and being kind to your neighbour and fellow man, being charitable etc. I can understand. Some of these other doctrines do not make logical sense in today's world, when we should know better.
  • Posts: 7,653
    bienvenue a Paris



  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Wow. Crazy.
  • Posts: 7,653
    that is understating it...........
  • Posts: 4,617
    thats a powerful and sad video, thank you for posting
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    This is a very unfortunate state of affairs for a large multi-cultural city. No one should have to feel insecure in a metropolis due to their religious beliefs.

    Did I get this right though? Did they say 10 hours of walking? That's a long time. 1 minute (from the start of the first insult) to the last insult. Where was he walking exactly where he received the majority of the comments? Anybody know?
  • Posts: 7,653
    apparently the main character walked through Paris without any visual religious signs, the video shows what happens after he was visually recognizable as Jewish.

    It seems that Paris has not come such a long way since the last big war.
  • Posts: 15,125
    France is the country in Europe with the largest Jewish community, one of the best integrated too, if not the most integrated in Europe. The antisemitic incidents have been multiplying recently. This in itself is very worrying. That many Muslim pupils in schools refused to respect a minute of silence in the honor of the victims of the CH shooting, and the kosher shop shooting, is also very worrying.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    All Abrahamic religions are bogus and dangerous.

    "Monotheistic religions creates hate because you're sure others are wrong. Polytheistic religions opens your mind about having various kinds of religions in the same world. Discuss"

    For all their hate towards Satan, they sure make him look like their God.

    In answer to the original question, yes, I believe it is likely that people belonging to monotheistic faiths have more potential to be intolerable, if their view is of a single god, and if that view is held firmly.

    This could in turn cause more conflict with other monotheistic faiths because if one takes one's belief literally, it is really not reconcilable with other faiths of this nature, or with polytheistic faiths for that matter. There is greater potential for misunderstanding therefore.

    This to me is a big concern. That is why I question people of this faith system (carefully) and try to probe to see if they can reconcile it. I've found a lot of passionate defense of their views, but an inability to logically explain themselves when probed (again delicately because most people don't like to be questioned on their religious beliefs and because many times I have noticed that they have not asked themselves this question - to consider the internal consistency of their views). Normally, I just ask once, observe the answer and let it go without digging deeper. I'm amazed at the conviction of the views however. People generally really hold to their view, even if it is illogical. I guess that is what it means to have faith.

    I have found members of poytheistic faiths, when questioned, to be more able to logically (if that's possible with religion) explain other gods by suggesting that either they are the same god with different names, or that they don't worship them (but not deny them). There is an ability to be more accepting due to the concept of multiple gods within their faith.

    So yes, I believe it is possible that monotheistic religions have the potential for more conflict due to the somewhat unyielding interpretation of the 'one god' concept. It depends on how rigidly one interprets it I suppose. I am not suggesting they are conflict driven. Just that greater potential exists. Sadly, I think the conflict statistics do confirm this theory (in that there is correlation if not causation). I can also imagine that the concept of 'chosen few' or 'chosen people' can also be offensive within these faith systems as it establishes a sort of hierarchy.. An outsider/insider thing.

    I continue to be fascinated by the whole thing. The human condition and mind is amazing - for better or for worse.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Long, long ago it was discovered that creating fantastic stories around a dead guy (that had some impact on his community, good or bad) could facilitate control of the mindless foolish masses.
    Basically, I am an elitist. I never wanted to see myself that way, but because the world has shown me such stupidity as I could never have imagined, all I can think is that we as a species are 1/3 intelligent, 1/3 functional, and 1/3 dirt stupid. The dirt stupid are easy no matter what. Sway the functional with enough nice-sounding bulls**t, and all manner of control or chaos is possible.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited February 2015 Posts: 17,804

    :)) You think I'm being too generous here I take it? What would your ratios be, sir?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited February 2015 Posts: 17,804
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I'm intelligent.
    Of that I've no doubt. I'd place myself in the mid-range of the intelligent third in my postulation, however since, as Blofeld said, humility is the worst form of conceit, it may be a tad higher.
    Seriously though, an uneducated society cannot possibly be a Democratic one. Which is, of course, precisely what TBTB have always wanted. The best way to maintain control is through the tried & true method of divide & conquer. Religion, threats to our way of life, issues of minority & female rights- these are great tools to those who use them wisely.
    No small coincidence then why I hold TND in such high esteem- for all its arguable OTT failings its message is abundantly clear.
  • edited February 2015 Posts: 2,015
    About the "Jew in Paris", do you feel that all that he experiences happen somewhere near the Eiffel Tower ? Or even in touristic Paris ? I'm afraid that the first images (the Eiffel Tower + a nice cobblestoned street), in which nothing happens are just there to manipulate the viewers to believe all that happens after that is in similar zones. I can't locate where he walks right after that, but I notice the cars don't have a Paris plate on the very first images after these two first (you can see 92 instead of Paris' 75 on two cars). Only around the 1:00 mark I can confirm he's definitely in Paris because of the subway near him (I think in the upper north about 6 km away from the Eiffel Tower). For the rest, I can't say but well...

    So in the end this video shows that if you go near (peaceful ? :) ) muslims with a kippa, you'll have a few antisemitic comment during a 10 hour walk. Big deal, we know religion is a strong basis for stupid behavior. But turning this into something as if Fox News was right about the "no go zones" in Paris, hmm.. ?

    Anyway, from what I can see, French jews don't like much being patronized by Israel, I'm afraid such videos won't help.

    PS : the paper that he wrote with the video
    http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/676/488.html
    has some outright lies about the fact women in Paris wear the burqua "at every street's corner" !

    PPS : in the paper he wrote that he walked not only in Paris, but also in the suburbs. But well it's less spectacular to call a Youtube video "a Jew in some suburbs of Paris" !

    PPPS : and the biggest blow that you can check yourself : IMO, the very last "insult" is not "homo" (at 1:18), but ... "Marlboro". I can't hear "homo" anyway (furthermore, it is a weird insult nowadays in French), and I can hear distinctly "Marlboro" several times. These guys are selling illegaly some cigarettes, and propose some to him when he passes by. You can hear "Marlboro, Marlboro ... Marlboro". The fact that he let such an error in the video means he's not really dishonest, but really has some delusion... And well, for many other "insults", we can hear nothing clear. Very weird. I'm afraid he didn't got the insults he hoped for...
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    That's interesting, @Birdleson, because that is exactly how I took your meaning the first time I read it. :)
  • edited February 2015 Posts: 4,617
    Its not just about IQ, its about having the ability to seperate the conscious from the sub-conscious and also having the bravery to deal with the truth. You can have an IQ of 200 and still believe. For many, fear of death and the idea that their loved ones are dead rather than in heaven is so powerful that it can and does override common sense. Its also about how attractive a system is that has all the answers compared to being honest enough to admit that the human race is pretty ignorant on the big questions. Also, you don't have to be that clever to question things. In the same way that my ten year old son can ask about how Santa can get down the chimney, he can also ask how Jesus turned water into wine or walked on water? once you start asking these questions, you are 90% there because there are no explanations backed by evidence. What most religious people have in common IMHO , is that they have made no great effort in asking the questions (many times because the answer is too scary for them to cope with), the universe is a very big place, we are made up up dust, carbon, water etc and, beyond our own emotions, our lives are meaningless and temporary. For most people, this is just not acceptable. God gives both meaning to our lives and extends it from temporary to eternal and its free. Its a great offer to be made.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Excellent @patb. I agree. Questions are more important than the answers in many respects. An open mind is critical always. I wrestled with the lack of evidence for some time and then I discovered philosophy and realized that the great philosophers have asked these questions for centuries. Many have gone insane trying to find the answers. We don't have all the answers and may never know everything, but that should not stop us from asking questions, about anything, or being open and able to adjust our view of the world as a result of new evidence.
  • edited February 2015 Posts: 4,617
    Sorry, one last point. It is also about the power of numbers and groups. We are, by nature, a species that works in groups and that has enabled us to evolve to where we are. The larger the group, the more persuasive and powerful the message. That's why organised religion tries to get people into as big a group as possible to worship (if god is onmi present , why cant I pray in the lounge?) and it's why we experience higher levels of emotion when amongst a group who a sharing that emotion. This applies as much with religion as it does with sport, politics or music. We all "get caught up in the atmosphere" at such events and religion exploits this to the max. Atheism will always be at a disagvantage as it never seeks to exploit emotion. You could have an atheist convention of 10,000 but you will never see the emotional investment as witnessed by a christian convention or within a Mosque. Promoting Atheism is about promoting individual thought, not the power of the group, or worse, the mob.
    http://psychology.about.com/od/classicpsychologystudies/p/conformity.htm
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Exactly right again.

    That is why I'm always in favour of protection of minority rights. Some people talk about democracy and majority rule too loosely - minorities must be protected within that context.

    If I may say, we have seen this concept play out here on this thread as well. The 'Jew in Paris' video for example. At first glance it looked terrible and the first set of comments were expressions of outrage (I hope that it was not because some of the perpetrators of the insults were muslims). Only when questioning did we realize it's a 10 hr scenario, of which we are only seeing 1 minute of insults, and then some were actually not insults. Not as bad as it initially looked, but not excusable either.

    What I will add too is that everyone is capable of incorrect judgements and subconscious cognitive biases. That is not only a 'sin' of the religious.
  • edited February 2015 Posts: 2,015
    Can English native speakers who don't speak French tell me if they understand the words that are being said at 1:18 ? The subtitle says "homo", but well "Marlboro, Marlboro... Marlboro" is being said for sure, and these are the only meaningful sounds we can hear.

    If I say this to you, do you hear it ? If you think it's "homo", do you hear "homo" ?

    I'd like to know if the lie/delusion is obvious or not to a non-French ear. Even to a French hear, if you look at the video with no earphones, the sound is so low that it's not obvious it's "Marlboro". Only the fact that "homo" is a super weird insult in French nowadays rings a bell - it's an insult from the 70s ! I'm afraid lots of people share this video without really listening to it. Some are even calling it '10 hours of insults in Paris', while it displays 5 insults mostly outside Paris ! "Funny" to use the propaganda tactics to denounce antisemitism...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    One of them says something 3 times before the alleged 'homo' statement. It's difficult to hear but it is a 3 syllable word uttered 3 times. Could be Malborough but I am not sure. I am not utterly convinced about the spitting incident at 0.58 either (the woman who walks past him).

    Obviously this video would have had less impact if it was a full 10 hrs of playback with these incidents highlighted within that timeframe.

    This is the power of video to create perception and impression.

    I am not excusing what happened to him, but perhaps there is in fact an agenda here.
  • Posts: 4,617
    The video would me more powerful if it were an independent body who carried out the research and used people who either wore the hat or not.
  • The irony is that I'm pretty sure the video would be far more shocking with a woman, juste like the NYC one. Here it seems the French Jewish community is not jumping on this video's bandwagon, given how far-fetched it looks, compared to the claims in the title and in the paper he writes with it (the most shocking moments were not in the video, he explains, but well it creates a confusion, and quite a few people reading the paper will think a very shocking video of hours of insults in Paris exist..).

    Just go at any "peaceful" protest for the Middle-East, you'll have antisemitic insults by the dozen...

    For the anecdote, a TV show tried to do a similar experiment with black people in France (by using white actors, filming then, and then using elaborate make-up to turn them into black people, and filming then again), and the participants explained after they felt the producers cheated on them. They asked them to go back and forth at the same location until something happened, up to the point the people in the street thought they were undercover cops.


  • Posts: 4,617
    You may wonder what this horrible story has to do with this discussion: until you read the last line. As a species, we are just babies
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/18/kidnapped-tanzanian-albino-boy-found-dead-with-limbs-hacked-off
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    @patb, again a post that shows how identity (how one defines oneself in relation to others) can impact how one views others, for good or bad. In this case, another tragedy ensues because of the crime of identity.

    Ultimately we must educate ourselves, keep an open mind and be mindful of subconscious biases. Those who are less educated are more likely to not understand this concept (and are perhaps more likely believe deeply in witchcraft, superstition or religion?), or act, as you say, like babies.

    However, even the very educated and mature can become violently passionate for the wrong reasons. I have observed that this is because of how they identify, whether it be with their country (patriotism), their race, their religion, their lack of religion (i.e. avowed atheist), their sex or whatever else. Anything that infringes on this sense of personal or collective identity can cause subconscious personal offense to them - especially if the one who perpetrates it is not like them, or how they self-identify. To those muslim people in the first video in the theatre, what was shown in the video caused them visceral offense because of how strongly they self-identify as muslims (they took it very personally as an offense and insult by an 'outsider').

    I think this proves without a doubt that we are descended from the apes - we are essentialy tribal as a species. We must fight against this all the time. Darwin was right for those who believe otherwise.

    I try very hard to identify as a 'human'. That's it. For me, this 'tribe' allows me to be as objective as possible when viewing the world, but of course, I will then have a subconscious bias against animals. We can't win :)
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