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CharlieHebdo

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  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,603
    Poll recently published by the BBC:

    "Asked if acts of violence against those who publish images of the Prophet Muhammad can "never be justified", 68% agreed that such violence was never justifiable."

    So 32% refused to say that violence can never be justified. That is a chilling figure IMHO.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31293196
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Ok @patb, I get your point. That's totally fair.

    As I've said before, I'm trying to be objective (to find solutions), but I don't for one minute condone the behaviour of these repressive nations. I can't stand it personally. I'm all for freedom of expression in all forms.

    However, our support on this forum is practically not going to get that man anywhere. We all know Saudi Arabia is a repressive regime.

    Unlike Communist China 26 years ago, when the western governments were making a big fuss, no western government is going to say anything now if they (Communist China) repressed anything today - because we are in trading cahoots with them. We weren't back then. Witness the muted reaction to demonstrations in Hong Kong recently.

    The same applies to Saudi Arabia. They are currently instrumental in keeping the oil prices down to get Europe out of its economic funk. That economic funk was created by no other than the United States of America itself - as the European project only underwent stress after the 2008 debt crisis caused by the US. So Saudi Arabia is currently a friend and is helping western economies. Look at the number of leaders in that post I made earlier with the Saudi king.

    Believe me, I get your point. However, I believe concerned western citizens should take the fight to their governments first, and stop them from supporting and condoning these almost medieval regimes, irrespective of the inevitable economic costs to each of us of speaking up against them. Only then will we see real change over there.

    I posted the Obama bow for a reason. To make a point that we are condoning this behaviour through our goverments. We should not. Governments have more say in this than a few people on a forum. We should lobby them to change their behaviour towards these people.

    As an example, Tony Blair was on tv a few weeks back speaking highly of the recently deceased Saudi King. Obama personally went to his funeral. He did not come to Paris.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,603
    When they lowered the flag to half mast, I wrote to my MP and also a letter of support to the Scottish Con MP who said the whole thing was ridiculous. I got no reply from my MP. A friend in another area also complained to his local Con MP. The reply was just automated fodder with no real thought or insight. Our connections with SA seem very tight/close and it is hard to know what to do.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    patb wrote: »
    When they lowered the flag to half mast, I wrote to my MP and also a letter of support to the Scottish Con MP who said the whole thing was ridiculous. I got no reply from my MP. A friend in another area also complained to his local Con MP. The reply was just automated fodder with no real thought or insight. Our connections with SA seem very tight/close and it is hard to know what to do.

    Good for you @patb. More people need to do more like you.

    Our connections are financial (in the multi-$bns). That's the problem. We have the same links with China now too.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,106
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    And I am all for do like the Romans when in Rome... But that should go both ways: no tolerated sharia law in the UK, no fasting during Ramadam for children in school and overall the respect for the separation of Church and State. Oh and if someone laughs at your god or prophet... Toughen up mate.

    I agree. If you bring that stuff outside the homelands, you should be deported, no ifs, ands or buts.

    I wouldn't exactly say toughen up though, because arguably that's what a few people chose to do in their own crazy way recently. I would say, accept it, or leave.

    They are not really toughing up, in fact one using violence against someone mocking his beliefs is nothing but a spineless coward.

    That's all well and good. People are dead in Europe who had nothing to do with it, regardless, and that is what I'm against.

    The chap in Saudi Arabia on the other hand broke the law of his land and now he must face his punishment. Until the laws are changed, that's the way it is. Saying otherwise is being hypocritical.

    We can preach and judge all we want, but we need to find solutions to the problem without losing the freedoms that we spent centuries (and countless lives of our own ancestors) trying to build up.

    I am looking for practical solutions for Western countries concerned with violence on their shores. I laid out 4 in a prior post. I'm looking for additional ones to debate or am willing to debate the 4 proposed.

    Whether he broke the law or not is beside the point: the law he broke and its punishment are barbaric. A woman showing too much leg in Islamic countries breaks the law too. Same for an adulteress
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,603
    In the same way that terrorists use online video to shock , it can work the other way. All MPs should be made to watch a woman being stoned to death and then justify what great friends we are. Perhaps I should have put a CD in the post with my letter to the MP?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Whether he broke the law or not is beside the point: the law he broke and its punishment are barbaric. A woman showing too much leg in Islamic countries breaks the law too. Same for an adulteress

    This is pretty obvious, but stating it over and over again on these forums is not going to change anything. They've been that way for years. They have no incentive to change.

    Until we stop condoning and supporting this barbarism, it will continue.

    @patb is on the right track. More should do what he is doing. Collectively and individually. There will be a huge economic cost to us though, so it will be like pulling teeth to get any government to do anything.

    We increasingly live in a corporatist society so money talks first and foremost.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,713


    It's in french but I think the images speak for themselves.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Everything un- islamic must be destroyed. This is the true satanism.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Interesting, and then we have this:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/is-looted-syrian-art-showing-up-in-london-to-fund-activities/2015/02/25/785ab630-bcd0-11e4-b274-e5209a3bc9a9_story.html

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02kvzz6

    Selling looted antiquities in London to fund their war.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »


    It's in french but I think the images speak for themselves.

    This just about sums up the twisted hypocracy of IS! They soon appear if their version of the Koran is commented upon by violence! Yet to blatantly destroy a countries historic artefacts and post them is alright?

    I hope this influences anyone who is deluded enough to consider joining them to think again!
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,106
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »


    It's in french but I think the images speak for themselves.

    Sickening. Obscurantist.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Men in skirts beating on history.
  • patbpatb
    edited February 2015 Posts: 4,603
    IMHO One of the ways you judge a civilized modern culture is how they go about respecting and learning from previous cultures. Even though no one dies, these videos, in their own way, are just as tragic. A rancid cocktail of stupidity, ignorance and violence. With the latest developments since the Charlie Hebdo affair, their is zero evidence that we are having any positive impact. And we shall see during the run up to the election that no politicians have any real idea on how to win this battle in the long term. We need a strategic plan of action rather than the usual knee jerk reactions (plattitudes, speeches, etc) from our leaders.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,603
    and it goes on, this guy was a USA citizen, interesting to see how they will react.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/27/american-atheist-blogger-hacked-to-death-in-bangladesh
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    So depressing to see those images of them smashing up the museum. I visited Syria a few years back. An amazing country with such incredible historical sites. Just tragic to think what has happened there and in Iraq. Saddam and Assad were/are so much better by comparison with the insanity we've unleashed.

  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    bondjames wrote: »
    Interesting, and then we have this:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/is-looted-syrian-art-showing-up-in-london-to-fund-activities/2015/02/25/785ab630-bcd0-11e4-b274-e5209a3bc9a9_story.html

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02kvzz6

    Selling looted antiquities in London to fund their war.

    Not actually a secret, there's all kinds of stuff from war regionson the market that funds guys withnasty attitude and guns, lots of it sold by London's high street auctioneers. To honourable customers of course.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    So depressing to see those images of them smashing up the museum. I visited Syria a few years back. An amazing country with such incredible historical sites. Just tragic to think what has happened there and in Iraq. Saddam and Assad were/are so much better by comparison with the insanity we've unleashed.

    As was Gaddafi it appears, based on the 3rd leg that has recently opened up in Libya.

    I still remember Sarkozy and Cameron proudly ushering in democracy in Benghazi in 2011.......we're a far cry from that now sadly.

    Obama, wisely, stayed away from that one.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    yeah, turned out really well, what a success. Bet the next season of this show runs in the Ukraine, some are already champing to get inaction there.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    yeah, turned out really well, what a success. Bet the next season of this show runs in the Ukraine, some are already champing to get inaction there.

    I know. Crazy what we are doing. Makes you nostalgic for people like Kissinger!

    Great article in the LRB recently about Hillary Clinton and how awful her foreign policy track record is. Sadly, most Repuplicans would doubtless only be just as bad:

    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n03/jackson-lears/we-came-we-saw-he-died
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    Large piece there, going to read hat later on, my cell would need recharging. Indeed, looks as if common sense went out of the window. Sadly that will likely earn us not a bright future.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    There is a Western obession with intervention. May be in the long run it will all turn out for the best, but right now it seems like we've created the mother of all disasters.

    Still, I guess it's currently small fry to the catastophes that Europe helped bring about with WW1 and WW2. The rest of the world must look at our preaching and see us the most monumental hypocrites.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    Getafix wrote: »
    There is a Western obession with intervention. May be in the long run it will all turn out for the best, but right now it seems like we've created the mother of all disasters.

    I don't see it working out at all no matter the time. Would be fantastic if it did, I'd be all for it. It just doesn't, not now, not tomorrow and far as I can tell not ever. If history teaches anything obviously it's that whatever they try to achieve with intervening blows up right our faces.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    In case there was any doubt, this below indicates there are zealots of all religious denominations. They are the ones to watch out for, not the peaceful ones who mind their business.

    https://ca.movies.yahoo.com/news/westboro-baptist-church-s-plan-to-picket-leonard-nimoy-s-funeral-foiled-140651690.html
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    Yes but the religious nuts in the US ate not slitting throats, as far as I know. Big difference.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    The ones slitting throats have an agenda. They are murderers first and foremost.

    The ones who objected to the Vilks video in the theatre are not, to my knowledge, murderers. They took offense to a video. There's a big difference there too...

    It is zealotry that is the problem, whatever the persuasion. Even non-religious zealotry is a problem.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,106
    When was the last time an atheist killed in the name of atheism? Or burned a book because of his atheism?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    This is precisely the point I've been trying to make this whole time. It does not matter in what name the killing is committed.

    The fact that it's a killing or is racist or is bigotted has the same effect to me. There are many atheist killers as well as religious killers.

    It is the uncompromising extremism of one's viewpoint that leads to this kind of thing, whatever the nonsense one holds onto to justify it. Uncompromising extremism comes in all forms, not just religious.

    If we are really open to free speech, then people should be free to worship their religion, as long as they don't hurt others. Those that do are first and foremost murderers. It is not appropriate to chastise an entire religion, which some have advocated here. In fact, it's illogical.

    World War 1 was not primarily a religious war to my knowledge. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,106
    What I mean is that there are ideologies that trigger, sometimes breed fanaticism. They are not all religious ideologies. But you can bet that any single religion has fundamentalist elements in its ideology.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    What I mean is that there are ideologies that trigger, sometimes breed fanaticism. They are not all religious ideologies. But you can bet that any single religion has fundamentalist elements in its ideology.

    Absolutely right.

    Religion, due to the illogical nature of some of its aspects, is more susceptible to perversion, no doubt, especially if one takes all aspects literally.

    I posted the above link because they were having a go at the late Nimoy, who epitomized logic and common sense over passion in his character, Spock. The irony is chilling.
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