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But that is a false equivalence. "Oh, well, you think you are right, just like a zealot". And ahould I thank you for not comparing me to ISIS, since you are basically implying that I am "just" a zealot? Some respect you show! Such consideration! Try not give me any label and tell me why in your opinion I am wrong. And why I am just like a zealot. It is your claim, after all.
That said, I don't pretend to be right on everything. But I won't respect a rubbish idea as soon as someone says "well, this is my faith". The people wanting the sharia law in the West want it because it is their faith. The Catholic Church and many Christian groups are against same sex marriages because it is their faith. Some people think Creationism should be taught in school in spite of evidence that it is pure hogwash... because it is their faith.
And it is not being a zealot to take reality on its terms. It is being sane.
Indeed. Hell is a fantasy and it is a depraved one. The idea deserves no respect whatsoever.
Constantly being given examples of where those of faith force their values on others through daily contact. The big invisible guy in the sky says homosexuals are sinners and will burn in hell. We dont bake cakes for sinners, what a great attitude to have, childish, petty and plain stupid...worthy of the playground
great stuff that there is a legal framework to prevent this but sad that we need the legal framework in the first place.
We just cannot discuss race, religion, or gay rights without it turning sour, it seems. Eventually, someone has to take it to that next level.
Not sure it's fair to lump sexual orientation and race in with religion. No one has a choice in either of the former.
As long as the discussion is civil, intelligent, and rational, which it has been for the most part - remarkably so in fact - on 41 odd pages of this thread, then I believe it serves a purpose and the common good. We can all become better informed by the conversation on this thread, whatever our starting point beliefs (or lack thereof) may be.
I realize the topic of religion is sensitive to some, but that does not mean it cannot and should not be discussed imho. The same applies to race (particularly with respect to the race of James Bond) and to homosexuality.
Anything that can open minds (of any persuasion) should be encouraged. It is those who cannot have such debates in a cordial manner or without getting 'hot and bothered', and who have to resort to personal insults to get a point across, who may want to reconsider their participation on this thread.
Hmm.. No more "it's the economy, stupid" ?
And can we go from being "directly relevant" to being "the cause" now ? Or is it just too much asking because then some feel that people that are lucky to be able to live with no religion could claim to be "superior" then. I feel there's some inferiority complex in some believers, it seems so important to prove the atheist's are even more irrationnal and zealots than the believers.
As I said, for the most part we've been able to keep this from becoming personal and from finger pointing or wagging. I hope we can keep it that way.
This discussion is more than the economy. It's more than religion. It has been complex and very interesting for me. Of course people have biases, and they come out in this thread. That's only to be expected. This situation affects people differently and very personally and deeply, depending on their belief system. It goes to the core of who they are.
I have said before and I say it again, one does not have to be religious to be a zealot or an extremist. That is an automatic subconscious part of human behaviour. We all have to be mindful of not falling into that trap. That's why I think it's best in these situations to keep the discussion to the facts and to analysis rather than to labelling.
Does God Believe in Atheists? by John Blanchard, Amazon blurb:
"This award-winning title traces the development of atheistic and agnostic thinking over the past 2,500 years and shows how thinkers like Immanuel Kant, Friedrich Neitzsche, Albert Camus, Jean-Paul Sartre, Bertrand Russell and others have shaped many people's thinking today. It also pinpoints the flaws in Darwinian evolutionism and in claims made for it by Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and others, explains why secular humanism self-destructs, reveals why here is no conflict between science and belief in God, exposes fatal errors in nine world religions and fourteen major cults and shows why the existence of evil and suffering is no reason to deny God's existence."
Not really because I don't believe in him. So I don't know anything about a hypothetical god. Neither do you or anyone.
And I assume you mean the Christian God. If he exists and I don't think he does, I don't find his way of caring loving or moral. In fact as depicted by his own worshippers he is a completely amoral chap.
I think that's why not-mentally ill religious people are more likely to do attrocious things if they believe their god will judge them after their demise. Actually, if you've seen the latest Mad Max film, you'll see an example of such thinking with the 'War boys'.
Again, I'm talking of those sound of mind. Psychopaths just don't care, if they believe in a god or don't makes no difference. and there are plenty of those around.
And anyway, many relious people have told me my soul goes to hell because I don't believe in ()their) god. so little comfort is given there.
True. I find comfort in being able to spend my days with my wife, my dog, my friends, my family... those that exist, rather than attempting to appease those that don't. I can't think of anything more depressing than spending my life hoping for a 'what if', when the real world is right in front of me. I pity those who are bound by their unshakeable belief in the unproven. Get over yourselves and go for a walk in field rather than a place of worship. Quite simply, there's a lot of cool shit to see out there if you bin off the bullshit.
Having said that, it can be countered by the old 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' argument.
I agree with @RC7 on this, in that if there is no sound evidence for its existence (and there is none), then one should probably not spend so much time fearing it, and rather go about enjoying life and what we know exists for a fact.
true. but the fact of the matter is, if you'd start taking into account all that has no evidence of existence, you'd have a hard day breathing. So I guess there's always a small amount of 'taking a chance' involved.
I agree. Inevitably, there is always an element of 'faith'. However, one should not focus on this element or prioritize it primarily or at the expense of 'fact based' information. That's what the extremists/fundamentalists do. It's all a matter of balance and prioritization imho.
I'm not even sure I'd like to go to heaven. People say what they will about Christopher Hitchens but he was spot on talking about a celestial North Korea. Not to mention terrible criterias for admission.
Dont forget, for the religious, it's not a "what if" its fact, so its not depressing, its great. Having said that , another taboo that Christians seem to specialise in is why their funerals are so black and dark when someone has gone to a better place. Why are religious funerals sad? of course, because someone has just died, its hard to ask but again, the whole thing makes no sense whatsover. For christians, life on earth is a tiny , tiny fragment of their journey (a journey with no end, my God, that is depressing) compared to eternity in heaven, utter bonkers