CharlieHebdo

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  • Posts: 15,105
    Maybe they're sad because he might be going to Hell? Of course it never happens for your loved ones.

    But whatever the belief, afterlife is at best a "what if". And an unsubstantiated one at that.
  • Posts: 4,603
    its hard for us doubters to get our heads around but its not "what if" for those who absolutely know, it is 100% fact, as sure as the sun comes up, heaven is there and they will go to it, any doubt and the rest of the beliefs start to crumble,
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,264
    I agree that religion should not seek to frighten young people into submission through the use of Hell. That they know that it exists at that age is probably enough. I am opposed to hard-line evangelical Bible teaching as it often tries to ram things down people's throats. There are more subtle approaches out there...
  • Posts: 15,105
    Well we don't know if Hell exists, in fact there's no evidence that it does. So as far as I know we should teach children to know about Hell like we know about Hades: as a human fabrication. To Hell with Hell.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited June 2015 Posts: 18,264
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Well we don't know if Hell exists, in fact there's no evidence that it does. So as far as I know we should teach children to know about Hell like we know about Hades: as a human fabrication. To Hell with Hell.

    That's your own strong view and you're entitled to it of course but I must respectfully differ with you on that point of theology. Hell has no exits.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    For a kid, being indoctrinated with these scares is hell enough.
  • Posts: 15,105
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Well we don't know if Hell exists, in fact there's no evidence that it does. So as far as I know we should teach children to know about Hell like we know about Hades: as a human fabrication. To Hell with Hell.

    That's your own strong view and you're entitled to it of course but I must respectfully differ with you on that point of theology. Hell has no exits.

    Then you might want to question the morality of the God who created it.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited June 2015 Posts: 18,264
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Well we don't know if Hell exists, in fact there's no evidence that it does. So as far as I know we should teach children to know about Hell like we know about Hades: as a human fabrication. To Hell with Hell.

    That's your own strong view and you're entitled to it of course but I must respectfully differ with you on that point of theology. Hell has no exits.

    Then you might want to question the morality of the God who created it.

    That is your spin on things. The reality is there has to be a diving of souls.

    Here's more on the matter:

    Hell is a place of suffering originally prepared by God for the devil and his angels (Matthew 18:9; 25:41). The words Hades (Greek) and Sheol (Hebrew) are sometimes associated with hell. However, Hades/Sheol is simply the place or realm where the spirits of people go when they die (see Genesis 37:35). Hades/Sheol is not necessarily a place of torment because God’s people were said to go there as well as the wicked. In the New Testament, we find that Hades is somehow “compartmentalized.” That is, the realm of the dead is divided into a place of comfort and a place of torment (Luke 16:19–31).

    There are other words associated with hell in the Bible such as Gehenna and lake of fire. It is clear that there is an actual place where the spirits of the unsaved go for eternity (Revelation 9:1; 20:15; Matthew 23:33).

    Everything that ever was or is or will be is created by God, including hell (Colossians 1:16). John 1:3 says, “All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.” God alone has the power to cast someone into hell (Luke 12:5). Jesus holds the keys of death and Hades (Revelation 1:18).

    Jesus said that hell was “prepared” for Satan and the demons (Matthew 25:41). It is a just punishment for the wicked one. Hell, or the lake of fire, will also be the destination for those who reject Christ (2 Peter 2:4–9). The good news is that people can avoid hell. God, in His infinite mercy and love, has made a way of salvation for everyone who trusts in God’s Son, Jesus Christ (John 3:16, 36; 5:24).


    Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-create-hell.html#ixzz3cD9JBj7A
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Tough love.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited June 2015 Posts: 18,264
    Tough love.

    Indeed, but let us face the reality. You don't expect Hitler and Churchill to be in the same place do you?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Tough love.

    Indeed, but let us face the reality. You don't expect Hitler and Churchill to be in the same place do you?

    That is your spin on things.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    The good news is that people can avoid hell. God, in His infinite mercy and love, has made a way of salvation for everyone who trusts in God’s Son, Jesus Christ (John 3:16, 36; 5:24).[/i]

    This seems rather convenient, and I'm sure those of other faiths will disagree vehemently.

    It all sounds like a load of " " to me, but what do I know.

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,264
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Tough love.

    Indeed, but let us face the reality. You don't expect Hitler and Churchill to be in the same place do you?

    That is your spin on things.

    If you like, yes. And the spin of a good few million people around the world, too.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Tough love.

    Indeed, but let us face the reality. You don't expect Hitler and Churchill to be in the same place do you?

    That is your spin on things.

    If you like, yes. And the spin of a good few million people around the world, too.

    And a few billion in Hell.

    The Charlie Hebdo employees, wonder if they are in Hell or somewhere else? And how about the killers, are they in Heaven? One can only speculate.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,264
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Tough love.

    Indeed, but let us face the reality. You don't expect Hitler and Churchill to be in the same place do you?

    That is your spin on things.

    If you like, yes. And the spin of a good few million people around the world, too.

    And a few billion in Hell.

    The Charlie Hebdo employees, wonder if they are in Hell or somewhere else? And how about the killers, are they in Heaven? One can only speculate.

    As I do not represent the Islamic faith which is a fallacy that is an easy question for me to answer - the murderers are in residing in Hell.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    If there is a Hell, it is a place of regret and learning. I am sure you agree.

    The Brosnan era was such an instant.
  • Will_OnceWill_Once Surrey, England
    Posts: 22
    Just so that I can be sure, which hell are we talking about? The Greek underworld, the Old Testament underworld or the New Testament place of punishment?

    And is this hell of those hells that comes equipped with a limbo and/ or a purgatory? A protestant hell or a catholic hell - cos it makes quite a difference?

    A Christian hell or an Islamic one? Or for that matter a Buddhist hell?

    Shame about the Taoists and Wiccans who don't seem to have a hell.

    And that's the problem with faith. That thing that you believe in, whether it is heaven, hell or whether or not you are allowed to eat pork ... whatever ... your beliefs are largely the product of a postcode lottery. If you were born in a different country or a different era then your belief systems would almost certainly be very different to what they are now.

    Because of that, how can anyone possibly be so certain of their own faith that they can't lift their eyes and notice that huge parts of planet earth believe in something quite different?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Will_Once wrote: »
    Just so that I can be sure, which hell are we talking about? The Greek underworld, the Old Testament underworld or the New Testament place of punishment?

    And is this hell of those hells that comes equipped with a limbo and/ or a purgatory? A protestant hell or a catholic hell - cos it makes quite a difference?

    A Christian hell or an Islamic one? Or for that matter a Buddhist hell?

    Shame about the Taoists and Wiccans who don't seem to have a hell.

    And that's the problem with faith. That thing that you believe in, whether it is heaven, hell or whether or not you are allowed to eat pork ... whatever ... your beliefs are largely the product of a postcode lottery. If you were born in a different country or a different era then your belief systems would almost certainly be very different to what they are now.

    Because of that, how can anyone possibly be so certain of their own faith that they can't lift their eyes and notice that huge parts of planet earth believe in something quite different?

    Well said, and thy @Will be done, once.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited June 2015 Posts: 18,264
    I'm of course aware there are many different takes on Hell and that it does depend where you are born (and to whom) but I am respectful of other beliefs whether I happen to agree with them or not.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I'm of course aware there are many different takes on Hell and that it does depend where you are born (and to whom) but I am respectful of other beliefs whether I happen to agree with them or not.

    Thanks. Hail Satan! And Putin, I heard he eats human flesh.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,264
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I'm of course aware there are many different takes on Hell and that it does depend where you are born (and to whom) but I am respectful of other beliefs whether I happen to agree with them or not.

    Thanks. Hail Satan! And Putin, I heard he eats human flesh.

    I would not be surprised by that! :))
  • Posts: 4,603
    "That they know that it exists at that age is probably enough." I laughed out load at this. I think its the addition of "probably", perhaps it may not be enough for them to know. This is exactly my previous point. This is not faith or belief: it is knowledge. Hell exists, that's it, fact, and kids need to know it exists. Hell is the stick (rather than the carrot) and rather a big stick at that. Can anyone think of anything worse than burning in hell fire for ever? Not really a sliding scale either: all or nothing, in or out. If people want to create facts from nothing but an old book of fairy tales, that's up to them but I cant see why that deserves any respect
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited June 2015 Posts: 18,264
    patb wrote: »
    "That they know that it exists at that age is probably enough." I laughed out load at this. I think its the addition of "probably", perhaps it may not be enough for them to know. This is exactly my previous point. This is not faith or belief: it is knowledge. Hell exists, that's it, fact, and kids need to know it exists. Hell is the stick (rather than the carrot) and rather a big stick at that. Can anyone think of anything worse than burning in hell fire for ever? Not really a sliding scale either: all or nothing, in or out. If people want to create facts from nothing but an old book of fairy tales, that's up to them but I cant see why that deserves any respect

    Children grow up into to adulthood eventually and when they reach a certain age they are quite entitled to discard their religion if they so wish (and of course many do) and that includes the dreaded concept of Hell.
  • Will_OnceWill_Once Surrey, England
    Posts: 22
    Well true. But we also know that people can become indoctrinated by their parents or environment. Children in particular are susceptible to this.

    So we can't rely on people discarding their religion if their childhood indoctrination is too strong. And if we are thinking along those lines, surely we teach our kids along the lines of "some people believe" rather than "this is 100% true"?

    Why is it called radicalisation when other cultures do it, but it's perfectly okay when we do it?:
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,264
    Will_Once wrote: »
    Well true. But we also know that people can become indoctrinated by their parents or environment. Children in particular are susceptible to this.

    So we can't rely on people discarding their religion if their childhood indoctrination is too strong. And if we are thinking along those lines, surely we teach our kids along the lines of "some people believe" rather than "this is 100% true"?

    Why is it called radicalisation when other cultures do it, but it's perfectly okay when we do it?:

    All true, but you are forgetting teenage rebellion that occurs perhaps most frequently in the strictest households where there is something moire substantial to rebel against.
  • Posts: 15,105
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Well we don't know if Hell exists, in fact there's no evidence that it does. So as far as I know we should teach children to know about Hell like we know about Hades: as a human fabrication. To Hell with Hell.

    That's your own strong view and you're entitled to it of course but I must respectfully differ with you on that point of theology. Hell has no exits.

    Then you might want to question the morality of the God who created it.

    That is your spin on things. The reality is there has to be a diving of souls.

    Here's more on the matter:

    Hell is a place of suffering originally prepared by God for the devil and his angels (Matthew 18:9; 25:41). The words Hades (Greek) and Sheol (Hebrew) are sometimes associated with hell. However, Hades/Sheol is simply the place or realm where the spirits of people go when they die (see Genesis 37:35). Hades/Sheol is not necessarily a place of torment because God’s people were said to go there as well as the wicked. In the New Testament, we find that Hades is somehow “compartmentalized.” That is, the realm of the dead is divided into a place of comfort and a place of torment (Luke 16:19–31).

    There are other words associated with hell in the Bible such as Gehenna and lake of fire. It is clear that there is an actual place where the spirits of the unsaved go for eternity (Revelation 9:1; 20:15; Matthew 23:33).

    Everything that ever was or is or will be is created by God, including hell (Colossians 1:16). John 1:3 says, “All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.” God alone has the power to cast someone into hell (Luke 12:5). Jesus holds the keys of death and Hades (Revelation 1:18).

    Jesus said that hell was “prepared” for Satan and the demons (Matthew 25:41). It is a just punishment for the wicked one. Hell, or the lake of fire, will also be the destination for those who reject Christ (2 Peter 2:4–9). The good news is that people can avoid hell. God, in His infinite mercy and love, has made a way of salvation for everyone who trusts in God’s Son, Jesus Christ (John 3:16, 36; 5:24).


    Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-create-hell.html#ixzz3cD9JBj7A

    Not my spin on things, but an assessment on what the hypothetical (let's be generous) Hell would imply about the morality of the one who created it and set up the criterias to go in it.

    But the reality is that there is no evidence whatsoever about the existence on souls and hell. Wishing bad people to go to Hell does not mean there is such a place, your wishes have no bearing over truth.

    As for Jesus as a way to save from one's own "sins" (assessed by God) and unworthiness, there is a word for it, and it is protection racket:
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,264
    We're never going to agree on this subject, interesting as it is, so I will stay my hand from contributing to this thread in future. I'm bailing out, as it were.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Sorry to see you go @Dragonpol. It's an interesting discussion and I'm trying and have tried to keep an open mind.

    I'm an agnostic essentially. I know what I know. I know what can be proven. I'm open to hypotheses and theories, but as long as there is no proof, they remain theories to me, no matter how many people believe them.

    At the end of the day, if one has strong beliefs in anything one should stand one's ground and justify them. If they become difficult to justify or debate logically, then that says something. I'm not poking fun at beliefs. I don't have a problem with them unlike some. However, I expect them to be justifiable and make common sense, no matter what the faith.

    I've thought about it long and hard, and to me this is somewhat like love. One is entitled to love someone even if that person is less than ideal. Even if that person is abusive. Even if that person is not good for you. It's irrational. It makes no sense - but no one questions it. Why? Because it's personal. It's a one on one thing. I don't have a problem with religion on a one on one basis for healing and comfort. I do take issue when it is taken as a basis in fact/gospel and shoved down others throats (I'm not suggesting anyone is doing it here though).

    At the end of the day, I'm all for logical debate. I'm open to changing my mind. The argument must be persuasive though.
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