CharlieHebdo

13468945

Comments

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    People who have no hope (no matter where they may live), limited financial means for advancement, or limited education, are more likely to sympathize with nutcases and religious extremism. They are also more likely to become terrorists or criminials.

    That is why ISIL is recruiting these people from the West to come and fight for them. You and I are not going to go there because we have better things to do with our lives. Some people don't and it's not a religious thing as some of the people who are going there to fight were not born Muslim, they are converting and going there. That is because they have given up hope.

    That is why some people (and proportionately more black in the US) turn to crime. Since they have given up hope or have no hope.

    The income disparities must be fixed or reduced.
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 2,015
    According to many reports, the two terrorists of the Charlie Hebdo attack never went in some ISIL camp abroad, but they had contact with preachers involved, etc... And IIRC none of the terrorists so far in recent French history had the profile of someone who would have ended in the street, except for Richard Durn in 2002 (who killed 8 French politicians). It had nothing to do with religion though. Some would say it was more a mass murder than some terrorist attack. We had a few serial killers who were living in the street, though...

    I think at some point you should confront your macro analysis with the actual facts. You're building a strongly coherent analysis of what's happening, that has nothing to do with what's happening. IMO You're like a psychanalyst looking for some Oedipus complex, whatever happened to your patient.

    Crime and terrorism are two different matters, you really should not mix the two IMO. More crime are amongst the poors and against the poors ? Of course. That's no rocket science. But kill someone from a French TV kid show and end your life in prison if you're not killed ? Where's the economy ?
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Well the economy feeds the problem because terrorists are richer and richer. And not poorer and poorer. The opposite of what you seem to say. Here their targets do not represent "the rich" at all : it's the police, the army, Jews, journalists, satirists, etc.. No bankers, no traders, no CEO of some company who won't recruit muslims etc..

    No, but the foot soldiers are often the dissillusioned, isolated youth, operating on the margins of mainstream society. Many of these nutters start off as not remotely religious at all. Many of them have drifted away from the 'normal', moderate religion of their parents, and entered into petty crime, drugs etc. They may have explicitly rejected religion. After all, everyday normal religious worship in most faiths is pretty unexciting - many young Muslims probably just find it boring. From the life of petty crime they go to prison, where they are targeted by extremists, who see them as easy prey. Prisons (both civil and military) are famously the factories of extremism. ISIS have talked openly about how their group gestated in the American military prisons of Iraq. Having had no direction in their lives previously, extremist Islam provides these youths with meaning and purpose (or so they imagine).

    9/11 was a pretty explicit attack on the Western capitalist system.

    But I agree though that the webs of funding, finance etc. for Islamic nutters are complex and for the headcases it's not about 'rich versus poor'. But then I don't think that's what @bondjames was saying any way.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Yes, you're correct. I'm not referring to the specific instance or attack here. You live there and you've been affected by it and you're commenting on the specific facts at hand. I respect that.

    I'm referring to the underlying issues that are at play. Many people in the west are drawing a link between ISIL and these attacks. Some are even drawing a general link between Islam and these attacks. They did so in Canada, certain western media are propogating this (because they are lazy) and some ignorant members of the public are drawing that link. In North American in particular, and mainly because of ignorance and lack of understanding.

    I am discussing the wider context of muslim grievance because of such inferences and links. You have not drawn such links, and I have not suggested you have. But some have, and some continue to do so.

    I am not suggesting that ISIL was at fault here. There is no evidence to support that.

  • Getafix wrote: »
    No, but the foot soldiers are often the dissillusioned, isolated youth, operating on the margins of mainstream society. Many of these nutters start off as not remotely religious at all. Many of them have drifted away from the 'normal', moderate religion of their parents, and entered into petty crime, drugs etc. From there they go to prison, where they are targeted by extremists, who see them as easy prey. Having had no direction in their lives previously, extremist Islam provides meaning and purpose (or so they imagine).

    9/11 was a pretty explicit attack on the Western capitalist system.

    But I agree though that the webs of funding, finance etc. for Islamic nutters are complex and for the headcases it's not about 'rich versus poor'. But then I don't think that's what @bondjames was saying any way.

    Do you know the profile of the French terrorists of the last years, or do you think it *must* be something like this ?

    9/11 was conducted by citizens from Saudi Arabia, that's not exactly a poor country, led by an Egyptian who studied in several universities. How you can link that to the "isolated youth on margins of the society" ?

    Economy is IMO like psychoanalysis : it explains everything, but cures nothing, and cannot predict anything.
  • bondjames wrote: »
    I am discussing the wider context of muslim grievance because of such inferences and links. You have not drawn such links, and I have not suggested you have. But some have, and some continue to do so.

    But you should not be blind to the cultural aspects just because some people want to use that to attack Iraq or whatever.

    A famous journalist who was interviewed in front of Charlie Hebdo's buildings minutes after the attack talked about Islam fanatics, was interrupted by someone saying "we don't know yet", and answered back immedialy "Who do you think they were ? Angry philatelists ?"
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    #Extremist Islam". Pfff, it is like saying "an animal dog".
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    I am discussing the wider context of muslim grievance because of such inferences and links. You have not drawn such links, and I have not suggested you have. But some have, and some continue to do so.

    But you should not be blind to the cultural aspects just because some people want to use that to attack Iraq or whatever.

    A famous journalist who was interviewed in front of Charlie Hebdo's buildings minutes after the attack talked about Islam fanatics, was interrupted by someone saying "we don't know yet", and answered back immedialy "Who do you think they were ? Angry philatelists ?"

    I don't think we are in disagreement @Suivez_ce_parachute. I think there is a misunderstanding maybe because I am speaking generally at a macro level, but we are not in disagreement. I don't mean to be blind to cultural aspects at all. Quite the opposite. I can assure you though that in North America there are many in the public who are blaming muslims generally for this. That is ignorant and wrong IMO.
  • Well, it seems some here are using a terrorist attack by people they know nothing of, against cartoonists they know nothing of, to make their point !

    Since they consider economy proves everything, I found some stastistics as food for thought :

    Here are the number of times Charlie Hebdo was sued :

    12 times by the right wing
    8 times by other journalists
    8 times by catholics
    6 times by muslims
    2 times by harkis (Algerians who collaborated with the French army)

    But you keep on seeing the drawings about Mahomet.
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 4,622
    patb wrote: »
    Where and when did the idea that people have the right to live a life free of offence come from? I am regularly offended by much of what I hear and see as are many others, but I realise that that is the price we pay in order to live in a relatively open and free society. No set of ideas should be free from scrutiny and satire. If you live in a multicultural society, then there will be people from other cultures who do not share you ideas and views. I find the policies of the BNP offensive. Do I gt myself a shotgun and go down to their offices? No, of course not. We have to be vary careful not to create an environment where the people who cause offence are seen as the bad guys. It is the inabililty of certain sections of the Muslim community to accept offence in the same way that 99% of people deal with it that is the issue.
    Yes, this is what we can reasonably expect in our pluralistic, free and democratic societies.
    No one has the legal right not to be offended. That is simply absurd. By all means be offended but its not a legal right to not be.
    We will never be free of offence. That goes with the free society territory.
    But liberty must also be defended, with reasonable and just force of course (which is obviously not an exact science)
    So Nazis, ISIS etc who would look to destroy our societies for purely ideological reasons,
    must be counter-attacked and defeated.
    Mind you they never go away, they keep coming back, but such is the good fight, it never ends, until you die, and face your perfect judgement (that's a Judeo-Christian theology of course).

    "His fight goes on, and on, and on.
    But he thinks that the fight is worth it all;
    So he strikes like Thunderball"

    I do think Nazi Germany should have been attacked "like-Thunderball" in the 1930's. The exact when is quite debatable of course, but what was going on there, was very apparent to those paying attention, western intelligence chiefs such as William Stephenson (the quiet Canadian, of a man A Man Called Intrepid fame) and colleague of one Ian Fleming.
    Best defence is always a good offence.
    By the time the Nazis invaded Poland though it was too late. We had failed to press our advantage.
    There are any number of political, economic and ineffectual weasal appeasement policies, that Hitler was able to exploit, very well outlined in many books, including this recent effort (2012) taken from the letters of the US ambassador to Germany at the time.
    content?id=GUmFAAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&imgtk=AFLRE73UgDZFYZvXG5k_4IYmzDLcTsdHg45i2wf3OBcve5VJgFi7asZlk3koc0dhPi9Ve_FMnOXYDkxpQdHvQCX6hzu_f1PdnJXIKY0BL0G_v4z0UQw7QmRIGiej2IRXrhhUFsiW-zwH
    soon to be a film, I believe.

    At least the west is taking the fight to them this time (although unlike Hitler, they are a little more obvious in showing their hand) so we don't really have much choice.
    The Neville Chamberlains of the world will not carry as much sway this time.
    ISIS has been laying waste to much of the middle east, inflicting the worst barbarity imaginable (full on mass rapes and slaughter)
    We are fighting back. I think the aerial assaults will complimnted by a concerted groud assault at some point.
    Liberty does come with a price. It always has.

    Now its fine and dandy to discuss matters theological or purely humanistic. Those can be fair, respectful and interesting discussions. Man has always searched for meaning and purpose.
    But those discussions can only be openly held in a free society.

    Thus we must be vigilant to defend our democratic freedoms, to offend and be offended, but those who do their talking with guns must be stood up to.

    And I do think we are on the right track. I do believe our law enforcement, intelligence and military forces are up to the task.
    Real life M and his intelligence team, I would imagine are actively engaged. The real-life double 0 equivalents have their assignments-targets.
    The Paris police are at least rounding up the enemy combatants (not without further incident unfortunately) and I think continued efforts will be made to double down and identify the terrorist plotters in our midst before they can strike.



  • edited January 2015 Posts: 2,015
    bondjames wrote: »
    Quite the opposite. I can assure you though that in North America there are many in the public who are blaming muslims generally for this. That is ignorant and wrong IMO.

    Yes but IMO only a very very minor part of those who are blaming the muslims would actually kill someone... even a muslim.

    You remind me of this posture : imagine a serial child killer is brought to prison in a van, that is blocked by a crowd full of people shouting "death penalty ! death penalty !". Then, there are always a few intellectuals to say that the barbary is outside the van, that we should rather blame this crowd who creates a violent society, that the killer is a victim of this society... Come on ! The only guy with blood on his hand is inside the van, not outside !

    Let me say again, that one of the two hostage crisis happening right now in Paris, linked to the Charlie Hebdo attack, is in a kosher shop, and not a rich one. There's not a kosher shop every ten meters where they are. Good luck with explaining antisemitism with something else than culture, you'll be onto very touchy topics if you want to explain it with economy...

    PS : I'll leave now for the week end.
    PPS : There are many factual errors in all that is written here about these attacks since it started, I can't correct all of them.
  • Posts: 6,601
    Oh please, who do you think you are? I am sure, his discussion will survive without you.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Between the pseudo religious nuts with a gun & a cause, the non religious nuts with a gun & a badge, and the actual puppetmasters (the Gods themselves- AKA The 1%) smiling at the distractions the former two provide for their global antics, the rest of us are pretty much out of luck.
    Divide & conquer always works so well.
  • Posts: 15,106
    bondjames wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    ...... I do find the French perhaps the best spokespersons for the freedom of speech mostly due to their society. I sympathise with the French today and tomorrow and yesterday................

    Me too. 100%. I appreciate and respect the French attitude to freedom of speech and freedom of expression in all areas, not just speech.

    Me too. Proper republicanism imo. No god no master (ok its an anarchist slogan, but still fits well French values.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited January 2015 Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    All of the above behooved Charlie Hedo to have been more careful. They were fanning the flames at a particularly sensitive time for this religious community.......

    ....Since economic prosperity is the best solution to make people secular

    Lets not blame Charlie Hebdo for people acting like animals.

    And lets not use economic prosperity or lack thereof as an excuse for these killers. There are plenty of groups in society who are economically underprivileged and whilst they may commit low level crimes such as muggings and stealing cars they dont stoop to such atrocities.

    Theres one common link between 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Bali, Beslan, Lee Rigby, Sydney and Paris but western liberals keep falling over themselves to tell us it has nothing to do with the 'peaceful' religion of Islam. Can anyone furnish me with a list of similar atrocities perpetuated by Buddhists? Last time I looked the people of Burma and Laos weren't too well off but where are the western Buddhist suicide bombers sympathising with their brothers in these countries?

    A few Staffordshire bull terriers savage some children and we label them a dangerous dog. Why arent these just extremist bull terriers acting contrary to the peace loving majority?

    I'm not saying that all muslims are killers - far from it. But I wonder how many actually shed a tear that a magazine that insulted Mohammed got its comeuppance?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Wow Wiz, pretty hardline there. :-O
  • Posts: 15,106
    Like a said, there is no way we can ignore that the terrorist crime was an act of religious devotion and that the cartoonists were in the eyes of their murderers guilty of blasphemy.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    edited January 2015 Posts: 45,489
    A French website suggests that Norway and Denmark are next in line.
  • Posts: 4,603
    re the points about the frustration of youth, poverty, no future etc. does anyone think that, all other things being equal, these three guys would have committed the same acts if they had chosen to be Quakers or Bhudists earlier on in their lives rather than Muslim?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    It is always the most devoted Islam students who pray and read the Quran night and day for years who become suicidal and brainwashed psycho killers. Not those who go to the mosque come Ramadan and Eid and get their burial in a muslim graveyard.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Well, I was right. There will be no trial. The French police did their work.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Well, I was right. There will be no trial. The French police did their work.

    Say what you like about the French (and I do constantly) but unlike our lily livered government they dont mess about when someone threatens to disrupt their way of life. Bosh - straight in and goodnight Vienna.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Well, I was right. There will be no trial. The French police did their work.

    Say what you like about the French (and I do constantly) but unlike our lily livered government they dont mess about when someone threatens to disrupt their way of life. Bosh - straight in and goodnight Vienna.

    "Let a fool hate France" as Chesterton said.
  • Posts: 11,425
    There would have been something very satisfying in them surviving long enough to see the next issue of Charlie Hebdo with their ugly mugs caricatured across the front page. Sadly they got what they wanted - their 'martyrdom'. Still, good riddance.
  • Posts: 12,526
    Very sad to see some of the hostages did not make it. Condolences to their families. RIP.
  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    Posts: 2,629
    I feel safe in saying that the Muslim faith doesn't exactly recognize gender equality. Having said that, was anyone else kind of surprised to find out that the one terrorist who escaped was a female?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Kerim wrote: »
    was anyone else kind of surprised to find out that the one terrorist who escaped was a female?
    She was a useful tool. Sexism can be paused for the goal. She could always be introduced to Allah AFTER she did her job. And probably will.

    So, what did these idiots accomplish here? In the eyes of their handlers, I suppose they reckon they generated some fear (which translates into RESPECT, for those of us that don't speak 'crazy'). And what is their ultimate goal in this? IMO, it's just another thread in the tapestry of their art. The Islamother****rs in Paris, the Boko Haramisfits the other day in Nigeria, Kim Jong-unmanly in N. Korea... all pissed off little would-be Hitlers taking their pot-shots to impress themselves & make a grab at world attention & basically unobtainable (or at least short-lived) power.
    To quote Carver, "pathetic."
    :-L
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    So, what did these idiots accomplish here? In the eyes of their handlers, I suppose they reckon they generated some fear (which translates into RESPECT, for those of us that don't speak 'crazy'). And what is their ultimate goal in this? ....... :-L

    To quote Alfred Pennyworth in TDK:

    “...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.”
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    bondjames wrote: »
    “...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.”
    Quite. It's a program.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited January 2015 Posts: 9,117
    Kerim wrote: »
    was anyone else kind of surprised to find out that the one terrorist who escaped was a female?

    I was very surprised. Not in the least that she's female but just how the f**k has she been allowed to get out of there? If I'm the mayor of Paris and I've done a Gary Oldman in Leon ('Bring me EVERYONE') I'm not expecting one of them to come up to me after and say 'we lost one'.

    As far as I can tell the supermarket was under lockdown so anyone who walks out of there should be told to lie down until they are identified or shot. This is basic procedure in storming a building isn't it? All hostages are made to lie flat and are cuffed until it can be determined who is who. The notion she has just legged it and nobody has stopped her is ridiculous.

    I'll be the first to say well done to the French special services for a job very well done but this an appalling error that mars such a good job.

    Meanwhile in other 'religion of peace' news: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/09/abu-hamza-sentenced-life-impisonment-terrorism-conviction

    Good to see some countries like France and the US protect their citizens from this scum rather than giving them a house and millions in legal aid. No doubt his wife and kids are still living in England off my taxes though.

    Is it just me or does anyone else have a little giggle to themselves that according to that sketch the yanks have nicked his hooks!?! Good luck fighting off the shower rapists in prison stumpy.


Sign In or Register to comment.