No Time To Die: Production Diary

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  • FYEO is off the books as a favour to M so TLD and TMWTGG are the only times in Fleming when he is officially sent to kill someone as the object of the mission.

    The two kills to get his 00 are only alluded to obliquely in CR and there is no real evidence outside of Pearson to suggest these were direct assassinations any more than they were missions in which it became necessary to kill.
    Still, Bond acts as assassin in the short story "For Your Eyes Only". It's exactly what he's up to, for his boss even if Her Majesty's government isn't aware. And even if it wasn't a proper order from M, who resisted that for a couple reasons. That's Bond's usefulness as a double-oh, acting outside channels when needed.

    The Fleming content in Casino Royale is clear that Bond's assignments were to kill a chosen individual. To me that's also assassination. I should also say I'm not holding a strict meaning requiring a political or religious motive. Assassination as killing a targeted person is enough.

    Casino Royale. In conversation with Vesper.
    Bond frowned. 'It's not difficult to get a Double O number if you're prepared to kill people,' he said. 'That's all the meaning it has. It's nothing to be particularly proud of. I've got the corpses of a Japanese cipher expert in New York and a Norwegian double agent in Stockholm to thank for being a Double 0. Probably quite decent people. They just got caught up in the gale of the world like that Yugoslav that Tito bumped off. It's a confusing business but if it's one's profession, one does what one's told. How do you like the grated egg with your caviar?'
    Much later with Mathis.
    'Well, in the last few years I've killed two villains. The first was in New York — a Japanese cipher expert cracking our codes on the thirty sixth floor of the RCA building in the Rockefeller centre, where the Japs had their consulate. I took a room on the fortieth floor of the next door skyscraper and I could look across the street into his room and see him working. Then I got a colleague from our organization in New York and a couple of Remington thirty-thirty's with telescopic sights and silencers. We smuggled them up to my room and sat for days waiting for our chance. He shot at the man a second before me. His job was only to blast a hole through the windows so that I could shoot the Jap through it. They have tough windows at the Rockefeller centre to keep the noise out. It worked very well. As I expected, his bullet got deflected by the glass and went God knows where. But I shot immediately after him, through the hole he had made. I got the Jap in the mouth as he turned to gape at the broken window.'

    Bond smoked for a minute.

    'It was a pretty sound job. Nice and clean too. Three hundred yards away. No personal contact. The next time in Stockholm wasn't so pretty. I had to kill a Norwegian who was doubling against us for the Germans. He'd managed to get two of our men captured — probably bumped off for all I know. For various reasons it had to be an absolutely silent job. I chose the bedroom of his flat and a knife. And, well, he just didn't die very quickly.

    Bollocks I totally forgot that passage. I had in my head for a minute that that was from Pearson and the only reference in CR was with Vesper. Need to reread it again.

    Nonetheless congratulations Sir you win the million pound prize that has gone unclaimed for donkeys years for proving the Wizard to be demonstrably wrong about something.

    However the point still stands that it's extremely rare for Fleming to send Bond off on a pure assassination mission. The two kills for 00 status might even be testing whether or not he has the bollocks to pull the trigger if necessary.
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    It's not all he does, but assassin is an important item on OO7's resume . And witness "For Your Eyes Only" and "The Living Daylights", as mentioned. It's how he earns double-oh status.
    In discussion I've heard it proposed Bond is not a secret agent (though it's the title of Chapter 1 in Casino Royale), Bond is not a detective (he regularly does that kind of work), even Bond is not a spy (though he's advertised as Ian Fleming's Master Spy and often called a spy). He's all those things, and an assassin when called on.

    FYEO is off the books as a favour to M so TLD and TMWTGG are the only times in Fleming when he is officially sent to kill someone as the object of the mission.

    The two kills to get his 00 are only alluded to obliquely in CR and there is no real evidence outside of Pearson to suggest these were direct assassinations any more than they were missions in which it became necessary to kill.

    Bond is someone who investigates for the government to protect British interests who is sanctioned to kill if it becomes necessary in the course of said investigation not someone who is regularly sent out with the objective of killing someone. That's an important distinction to make

    It can occasionlly be his task to assassinate people but it's only a very small part of his overall role.

    This is another criticism I have of SP and the misunderstanding of the character by P&W and, at the risk of being on the receiving end of more of Gustav's histrionics, Mendes. It's mentioned numerous times that he is just an assassin as if that is the be all and end all of his job.

    Good Bond job description. I'd love to see Bond go back to investigating some situation for the British government.
    Seems Craig's Bond is so often sent to eliminate it becomes the expectation: "a clean kill or do you want to send a message?", "and terminate him, for Ronson", etc

    With all this time in between films, the writers could go back and easily re-read Fleming's entire Bond catalog to get a grasp on what 007 does for a living.

    Good call actually. Seems like P&W have read that passage in CR and become convinced that Bond is just an executioner. Fleming would be aghast at the above line from M about terminating Patrice for Ronson as that reduces MI6 and the 00 'program' (words cannot describe how much I despise the use of that word in SP. I think I loathe it worse than the stepbrother stuff) to SMERSH dishing out revenge killings.

    But on the other side of the argument he showed mercy to Blofeld and let Whyte (Spectre) and Green (QOS) decide their own fate. He also passed up on the opportunity to kill Silva (Skyfall).

    White is already destined to die from poisoning ( which in a only slightly more intelligent written script would beg the question why they chose to send some hit men after him, but since it's only SP ...) and to send someone with nothing but a can of oil into a desert is not really my idea of let him choose his own fate.
    P.S.: Bonds inner turmoil in FYEO when he is sent to snuff some people of whom he knows, that they killed an old, peaceful couple just for profit actually just tell us anything about Bonds mental constitution as an "assassin". This man really needs a convincing reason to kill otherwise he just isn't able to handle it psychologically. Those two kills in second world war fit that description. Their dead probably saved dozens, if not thousands of lives.

    Let's not forget the end of TMWTGG when instead of just putting a bullet into Scaramanga like the cold blooded assassin we are told he is in SF and SP, he dithers and shows a bit of mercy to let his quarry have a final prayer and very nearly gets himself killed.

    He also couldn't bring himself to shoot Scaramanga in the back of the head when he's riding in the car in TMWTGG. That book and GF are always the examples I go to whenever people make out that Fleming's Bond was this remorseless cold blooded killer.

    I don't have an issue with Bond being labelled an assassin, because he is. But he's not just an assassin. I think the issue is when he's made out to be just an assassin and nothing more, like in SP when he says "I kill people" for his job description. I mean yeah, he does, but that's not all he does. He's more than just a killing machine.

    I understand why they placed so much emphasis on him as an assassin in the film because it fit the themes/parallels they were going for, but it does do the character a bit of a disservice imo.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2017 Posts: 23,883
    It seems 20th Century Fox is in talks with Disney. Disney wants to buy most of the company's strongholds, including the remaining Marvel titles, 20th Century Fox global movie distribution, the home entertainment branch, the TV Channels, everything basically: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/06/21st-century-fox-has-been-holding-talks-to-sell-most-of-company-to-disney-sources.html

    As you know 20th Century Fox currently is the home entertainment distributor of the James Bond films, making renegotiation about this deal important as well. Ooowh, and 20th Century Fox is one of the parties vying for the global distribution rights of the actual Bond films.

    I call this substantial news.
    Further consolidation in the industry is inevitable, although they may face regulatory roadblocks, as is happening with AT&T/Warner.

    In this sort of environment it would be helpful if MGM were on firmer footing. Hopefully someone decides to take them out, so we won't have to endure years of them plotting their IPO (that takes time and will add further uncertainty to the mix).
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    I never really took the literary Bond as a remorseless cold blooded killer in the slightest. The first time I finished reading Royale years ago, I shot down the claim the people falsely make about him being a cold blooded assassin. In Royale alone he was too vulnerable a man. That's not what I call cold blooded.

    Cold Blooded Killer/Assassin in Agent 47 from Hitman. Not Bond. Not the literary one, at least. But, the cinematic Bond has shown elements as such, particularly when killing Professor Dent.
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    Problem is that Craig’s Bond has lost that essence where he is a spy I do not feel like he is a spy at all.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I don't have an issue with Bond being labelled an assassin, because he is. But he's not just an assassin. I think the issue is when he's made out to be just an assassin and nothing more, like in SP when he says "I kill people" for his job description. I mean yeah, he does, but that's not all he does. He's more than just a killing machine.
    This is the key point in my view.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Problem is that Craig’s Bond has lost that essence where he is a spy I do not feel like he is a spy at all.
    I agree. We haven't seen Craig doing spy stuff at all. Well, other than tailing a few of his targets or spying on conversations sometimes, he's more like an infuriated policeman and a counter-intelligence/terrorism agent rather than a secret agent.
  • Anything more to add to the mix of "the past 9 years have been not good enough.....not from a spy perspective"? More, more, more:-).
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Anything more to add to the mix of "the past 9 years have been not good enough.....not from a spy perspective"? More, more, more:-).
    People are having a conversation here and making points in a discussion without putting any of the remarks you put up there above. Please stop shedding tears over an imaginary made-up thing.
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    Anything more to add to the mix of "the past 9 years have been not good enough.....not from a spy perspective"? More, more, more:-).
    People are having a conversation here and making points in a discussion without putting any of the remarks you put up there above. Please stop shedding tears over an imaginary made-up thing.

    Thank you.. No one dissed Craig’s Bond.
  • dominicgreenedominicgreene The Eternal QOS Defender
    edited November 2017 Posts: 1,756
    Problem is that Craig’s Bond has lost that essence where he is a spy I do not feel like he is a spy at all.
    I agree. We haven't seen Craig doing spy stuff at all. Well, other than tailing a few of his targets or spying on conversations sometimes, he's more like an infuriated policeman and a counter-intelligence/terrorism agent rather than a secret agent.

    Craig has never changed his personality for his job ever, nor put on a disguise (unless you count SP in Mexico). I would love for Craig to do something like that, where he is forced to do some social engineering.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Craig did ala briefly disguise himself as a limo driver to tail Patrice in Skyfall.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Anything more to add to the mix of "the past 9 years have been not good enough.....not from a spy perspective"? More, more, more:-).
    People are having a conversation here and making points in a discussion without putting any of the remarks you put up there above. Please stop shedding tears over an imaginary made-up thing.

    Well said. I'd read this discussion than Gustav's spam posts telling us all to stop being so negative and to cease (justifiably) slagging off Sam Mendes without bringing any meaningful points to the party.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited November 2017 Posts: 15,423
    Anything more to add to the mix of "the past 9 years have been not good enough.....not from a spy perspective"? More, more, more:-).
    People are having a conversation here and making points in a discussion without putting any of the remarks you put up there above. Please stop shedding tears over an imaginary made-up thing.

    Well said. I'd read this discussion than Gustav's spam posts telling us all to stop being so negative and to cease (justifiably) slagging off Sam Mendes without bringing any meaningful points to the party.
    Thing is, nobody has been negative in discussion of Craig's Bond not behaving like a spy but an openly-admitted saboteur. And GG keeps attacking everybody with overdramatic posts, and whinging over a nonexistent paranoia. After sometime, it's starting to get rather irritating.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    While not directly related to B25, it appears Blake Lively has started filming The Rhythm Section in Ireland only yesterday. Jude Law also reportedly joined the cast.

    http://www.eonline.com/news/891759/blake-lively-is-unrecognizable-while-filming-new-movie-the-rhythm-section-in-ireland
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    that would throw them out of running of bond 25
  • bondjames wrote: »
    I don't have an issue with Bond being labelled an assassin, because he is. But he's not just an assassin. I think the issue is when he's made out to be just an assassin and nothing more, like in SP when he says "I kill people" for his job description. I mean yeah, he does, but that's not all he does. He's more than just a killing machine.
    This is the key point in my view.

    Thinking about it though, as well as labelling him as an assassin, SP also portrays him as one. He's sent to kill Sciarra with no context and obliges. When Blofeld asks why he tracked him down, he specifically says it was to kill him (rather than stop his plans). And then his whole world seems to be one full of assassins: Sciarra, White, Hinx. I think there's a danger of reading too much into this sort of thing but I think this was probably a conscious decision, to show Bond as an assassin in a world of assassination to make him sparing Blofeld and walking away at the end have more of an impact. I've read interviews with Craig where he labels him as an assassin so I think that's just how he/Mendes see the character.

    Personally I see him as much more than that but I was cool with it because I thought it worked really well for Bond's character arc in SP. But I do think for the next one I think a shift back to Bond being more of a spy would be nice.
  • Re: Studio maneuverings.

    Nobody here really knows what's going to happen. Thus, at the moment, Bond is a piece on a chessboard.

    Remember the predictions about how major announcements (B25 director, distributor, etc.) would come out on Global James Bond day? The only actual announcement that day was a 10 percent discount on James Bond T-shirts.

    Nobody here predicted (much claimed inside knowledge of) the MGM-Annapurna deal. But the deal got announced, nevertheless.

    Nobody here predicted (much claimed knowledge of) that Disney might seek to buy a big chunk of Fox. Apparently the talks have broken off for now. But as recently as a week ago, body knew there had been such talks.

    I've seen declarations that the Wilson-Broccoli family would NEVER sell. Star Wars fans used to say the same thing about George Lucas. $4 billion ($2 billion in cash, $2 billion in Disney stock) changed his mind.

    The only safe thing to say it may be a wild ride.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2017 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    I don't have an issue with Bond being labelled an assassin, because he is. But he's not just an assassin. I think the issue is when he's made out to be just an assassin and nothing more, like in SP when he says "I kill people" for his job description. I mean yeah, he does, but that's not all he does. He's more than just a killing machine.
    This is the key point in my view.

    Thinking about it though, as well as labelling him as an assassin, SP also portrays him as one. He's sent to kill Sciarra with no context and obliges. When Blofeld asks why he tracked him down, he specifically says it was to kill him (rather than stop his plans). And then his whole world seems to be one full of assassins: Sciarra, White, Hinx. I think there's a danger of reading too much into this sort of thing but I think this was probably a conscious decision, to show Bond as an assassin in a world of assassination to make him sparing Blofeld and walking away at the end have more of an impact. I've read interviews with Craig where he labels him as an assassin so I think that's just how he/Mendes see the character.

    Personally I see him as much more than that but I was cool with it because I thought it worked really well for Bond's character arc in SP. But I do think for the next one I think a shift back to Bond being more of a spy would be nice.
    I noticed the repeated comments about being an assassin upon first viewing and must admit that I found it odd, although I didn't consciously think too much of it at the time. As I've noted before though, I didn't find much to like about Bond in SP and this terminology may have had something to do with it now that I think more about it. Attempting to link Bond with the criminals he pursues (including White) didn't go down all that well with me.

    I agree that it was probably conscious on the film maker's part, because it was too obvious and repetitive for it not to be. I've not read the interviews where Craig labels Bond an assassin but I've certainly read the one where he calls him a misogynist. Sometimes I wonder whether he actually likes the character's less palatable traits in the way we do.

    I definitely agree that it's time to get back to some serious spy work with the next one.
    --
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    Direct to consumer streaming is the big thing these days. As I understand it, Disney is going to get into it aggressively in the next few years, and will also pull all of its content from Netflix by 2019. This is why the rumours of Amazon bidding for Bond distribution (in what shape or form I'm not sure as it could only relate to streaming as opposed to the theatrical run) are interesting to me.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited November 2017 Posts: 13,792
    So the idea was Bond isn't only or isn't always or isn't nearly always an assassin.

    Well, I'll disagree with that, too. Meaning of course he's not solely an assassin, but I don't see him presented that way in the Craig Bond films. (I also don't think anyone proposed Bond is ONLY an assassin.)

    2006: he's not sent out by his government to kill anyone. Not even Le Chiffre.
    2008: he's not sent out to kill anyone. (And if he was ever on a personal vendetta, he doesn't kill Yusef.)
    2012: he's not sent out to kill anyone.
    2015: he's not sent to kill anyone--if the For Your Eyes Only disclaimer is invoked. The deceased Dench M gives the instruction, but she's not in the chief's position or able to give an actual order to her agent. So on that criteria even killing Signor Sciarra doesn't "count". But yes, of course he acts as an assassin. And he does go to Blofeld to assassinate him, as noted, whether or not he's on orders.

    Bond films.
    1963: Q to OO7: Inside the case, you'll find an AR folding sniper's rifle, .25 calibre, with an infrared telescopic sight. [Used to assassinate Krilencu, even if Kerim Bey takes the shot.]

    1974: Bond to Scaramanga: When l kill it's under specific orders of my government. And those l kill are themselves killers.
    1983: Octopussy to Bond: I don't have to apologise to you, a paid assassin, for what l am.

    1987: Bond sent to assassinate the assassin. (But "knows when not to kill", as Fienes M would say.)
    1987: Bond sent to assassinate Pushkin. (But "knows when not to kill".)
    1987: Koskov: I have here General Pushkin's assassin. British Agent James Bond.

    2002: Zao to Moon: His name is James Bond, a British assassin.
    2002: Moon to Bond: Fifty years after the superpowers carved Korea in two, and then you arrive. A British spy, an assassin.

    2015: White to Bond: The word of an assassin!
    2015: Madeleine to Bond: Why, given every other possible option, does a man choose the life of a paid assassin?
    2015: Blofeld to Madeleine: The daughter of an assassin. The only one who could have understood [Bond--a fellow assassin].

    Bond being called an assassin in the films isn't over-represented. And it's not all Purvis and Wade--Wilson and Maibaum were in on it.

    Bond novels.
    Casino Royale.
    'This is a gun, monsieur. It is absolutely silent. It can blow the base of your spine off without a sound. You will appear to have fainted. I shall be gone. Withdraw your bet before I count ten. If you call for help I shall fire.'

    The voice was confident. Bond believed it. These people had shown they would unhesitatingly go the limit. The thick walking stick was explained. Bond knew the type of gun. The barrel a series of soft rubber baffles which absorbed the detonation, but allowed the passage of the bullet. They had been invented and used in the war for assassinations Bond had tested them himself.
    Live and Let Die.
    The Big Man's lips rolled slowly back from his teeth.
    'I have not seen a member of the Secret Service for many years, Mister Bond. Not since the war. Your Service did well in the war. You have some able men. I learn from my friends that you are high up in your Service. You have a double-o number, I believe — 007, if I remember right. The significance of that double-o number, they tell me, is that you have had to kill a man in the course of some assignment. There cannot be many double-o numbers in a Service which does not use assassination as a weapon. Whom have you been sent over to kill here, Mister Bond? Not me by any chance?'
    Moonraker.
    Bond was not surprised by the curious mixture he was supposed to digest. The OO Section of the Secret Service was not concerned with the current operations of other sections and stations, only with background information which might be useful or instructive to the only three men in the Service whose duties included assassination--who might be ordered to kill. There was no urgency about these files. No action was required by him or his two colleagues except that each of them jotted down the numbers of dockets which he considered the other two should also read when they were next attached to Headquarters. When the OO Section had finished with this lot they would go down to their final destination in 'Records'.
    You Only Live Twice.
    [Sir James Moloney to M}
    'Well now, I don't know much about your line of business, M. And I don't want to. Got enough secrets in my own job to look after. But haven't you got something really sticky, some apparently hopeless assignment you can give this man? I don't mean necessarily dangerous, like assassination or stealing Russian ciphers or whatever. But something that's desperately important but apparently impossible. By all means give him a kick in the pants at the same time if you want to, but what he needs most of all is a supreme call on his talents, something that'll really make him sweat so that he's simply forced to forget his personal troubles. He's a patriotic sort of a chap. Give him something that really matters to his country. It would be easy enough if a war broke out. Nothing like death or glory to take a man out of himself. But can't you dream up something that simply stinks of urgency? If you can, give him the job. It might get him right back on the rails. Anyway, give him the chance. Yes?'


    So I'd say the assassin element is important but not so frequently used, even in recent history. In SPECTRE it's an element of the story that informs the actions of Madeleine and Bond, love it or loathe it. I don't expect it every mission, they should mix it up. To be predisposed to object to this part of the Bond character doesn't bode well for enjoying BOND 25 and following films.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117

    2006: he's not sent out by his government to kill anyone. Not even Le Chiffre.
    2008: he's not sent out to kill anyone. (And if he was ever on a personal vendetta, he doesn't kill Yusef.)
    2012: he's not sent out to kill anyone.
    2015: he's not sent to kill anyone--if the For Your Eyes Only disclaimer is invoked. The deceased Dench M gives the instruction, but she's not in the chief's position or able to give an actual order to her agent. So on that criteria even killing Signor Sciarra doesn't "count". But yes, of course he acts as an assassin. And he does go to Blofeld to assassinate him, as noted, whether or not he's on orders.

    2006: Dryden and possibly Fisher.
    2012: Patrice ('Terminate him for Ronson'. And Bond's 'With pleasure' response is hardly someone wrestling with the moral quandaries of killing).
    1963: Q to OO7: Inside the case, you'll find an AR folding sniper's rifle, .25 calibre, with an infrared telescopic sight. [Used to assassinate Krilencu, even if Kerim Bey takes the shot.]

    Somewhat tentative. Not ordered to by his government and doesn't even take the shot anyway.
    1974: Bond to Scaramanga: When l kill it's under specific orders of my government. And those l kill are themselves killers.

    Fair enough.
    1983: Octopussy to Bond: I don't have to apologise to you, a paid assassin, for what l am.

    Quoting a particular character's perception (who is effectively a member of the public and has nothing to do with MI6) of what his job entails does not necessarily tally with his actual job description.
    1987: Bond sent to assassinate the assassin. (But "knows when not to kill", as Fienes M would say.)
    1987: Bond sent to assassinate Pushkin. (But "knows when not to kill".)

    Fair enough. Pretty cut and dried.
    1987: Koskov: I have here General Pushkin's assassin. British Agent James Bond.

    Merely a factual reference to General Pushkin's killing and not a description of Bond's job. And Pushkin isn't even dead.
    2002: Zao to Moon: His name is James Bond, a British assassin.

    See Octopussy reference above.
    2002: Moon to Bond: Fifty years after the superpowers carved Korea in two, and then you arrive. A British spy, an assassin.

    See Octopussy reference above.
    2015: White to Bond: The word of an assassin!
    2015: Madeleine to Bond: Why, given every other possible option, does a man choose the life of a paid assassin?
    2015: Blofeld to Madeleine: The daughter of an assassin. The only one who could have understood [Bond--a fellow assassin].

    See Octopussy reference above.
    Bond being called an assassin in the films isn't over-represented. And it's not all Purvis and Wade--Wilson and Maibaum were in on it.

    Being called an assassin and actually being one are two different things. The scriptwriters are putting words in character's mouths to illustrate how they (the character) perceive Bond's job but that is not necessarily the same as stating that they (the scriptwriter's) agree with that perception.

    So out of 20 films before the Craig era there is only Roger's 'I only kill on the specific orders of my government' and TLD's assassination mission (hardly a surprise as it is based on one of only two times in the books Bond is specifically sent to kill).
    They had been invented and used in the war for assassinations Bond had tested them himself[/u].

    Testing something is not the same as using it in anger. The people who tested nuclear bombs in the middle of the desert are not regarded as genocidal maniacs which they would be had they tested them in cities.
    The significance of that double-o number, they tell me, is that you have had to kill a man in the course of some assignment.'

    No one is disputing that Bond may have to kill in the course of an assignment but that may be for numerous reasons as the particular situation and dictates and evolves. Not the same as being told explicitly to kill.
    the only three men in the Service whose duties included assassination--who might be ordered to kill. [/u]

    Key word might. We have conceded that Bond does have assassination as part of his duties but the rarity it happens in Fleming shows that it is not a big part.

    I don't mean necessarily dangerous, like assassination or stealing Russian ciphers or whatever[/u].

    See Octopussy reference above. Molony is just brainstorming and doesn't really have a clue about Bond's duties above the man in the street's perception of what spies do.
    So I'd say the assassin element is important but not so frequently used, even in recent history. In SPECTRE it's an element of the story that informs the actions of Madeleine and Bond, love it or loathe it. I don't expect it every mission, they should mix it up. To be predisposed to object to this part of the Bond character doesn't bode well for enjoying BOND 25 and following films.

    I'd broadly agree and say the assassin element was there in the background but never really used that much (Dalton's gritty debut the glaring exception) as it's not very British to assassinate someone and these are family films so they wanted to show Bond acting in self defence more. I didn't have a problem with the way they portrayed Bond in the first 3 films of the Craig era but in SP the way everyone kept chipping in calling him an assassin started to grate somewhat.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Isn't Bond acting in a personal capacity in LTK and at the start of SP which makes him less of an assassin and more of a murderer.
  • Getafix wrote: »
    Isn't Bond acting in a personal capacity in LTK and at the start of SP which makes him less of an assassin and more of a murderer.

    With SPECTRE, he's following the orders of a superior who's dead and doesn't actually have the authority to make such an order. :-)
  • Posts: 5,767
    My understanding of the definition of a spy is someone who secretly extracts information from an otherwise closed source. The only instance that applies to Bond in the novels is the beginning of YOLT, correct me if I´m mistaken.
    Bond is an investigator, a detective. His license to kill makes him more dangerous to opponents, but I don´t recall any mention in the novels beside Bond´s first two kills (which could easily qualify as a means to evaluate him regarding suitability for the 00 section) where Bond is directly ordered to kill someone.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited November 2017 Posts: 15,423
    boldfinger wrote: »
    My understanding of the definition of a spy is someone who secretly extracts information from an otherwise closed source. The only instance that applies to Bond in the novels is the beginning of YOLT, correct me if I´m mistaken.
    Bond is an investigator, a detective. His license to kill makes him more dangerous to opponents, but I don´t recall any mention in the novels beside Bond´s first two kills (which could easily qualify as a means to evaluate him regarding suitability for the 00 section) where Bond is directly ordered to kill someone.
    Yep! That "ruthless cold blooded killer" description about literary Bond is nothing but a public criteria.
  • Posts: 1,031
    boldfinger wrote: »
    My understanding of the definition of a spy is someone who secretly extracts information from an otherwise closed source. The only instance that applies to Bond in the novels is the beginning of YOLT, correct me if I´m mistaken.
    Bond is an investigator, a detective. His license to kill makes him more dangerous to opponents, but I don´t recall any mention in the novels beside Bond´s first two kills (which could easily qualify as a means to evaluate him regarding suitability for the 00 section) where Bond is directly ordered to kill someone.

    Well John Le Carré thought Bond shouldn't be considered as a spy but as an 'international gangster'!
  • JeffreyJeffrey The Netherlands
    Posts: 308
    Dennison wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    My understanding of the definition of a spy is someone who secretly extracts information from an otherwise closed source. The only instance that applies to Bond in the novels is the beginning of YOLT, correct me if I´m mistaken.
    Bond is an investigator, a detective. His license to kill makes him more dangerous to opponents, but I don´t recall any mention in the novels beside Bond´s first two kills (which could easily qualify as a means to evaluate him regarding suitability for the 00 section) where Bond is directly ordered to kill someone.

    Well John Le Carré thought Bond shouldn't be considered as a spy but as an 'international gangster'!

    He got Carré'd away.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    If Le Carré really thought Bond had the aspects of a "gangster", then the man is indeed delusional.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2017 Posts: 7,547
    Bond stopped being a spy in 1953:

    "But now he would attack the arm that held the whip and the gun. The business of espionage could be left to the white-collar boys. They could spy, and catch the spies. He would go after the threat behind the spies, the threat that made them spy."

    Casino Royale
    boldfinger wrote: »
    My understanding of the definition of a spy is someone who secretly extracts information from an otherwise closed source. The only instance that applies to Bond in the novels is the beginning of YOLT, correct me if I´m mistaken.
    Bond is an investigator, a detective. His license to kill makes him more dangerous to opponents, but I don´t recall any mention in the novels beside Bond´s first two kills (which could easily qualify as a means to evaluate him regarding suitability for the 00 section) where Bond is directly ordered to kill someone.

    Isn't he directly ordered to kill Scaramanga, and also Blofeld and Irma Bunt (but by Tiger Tanaka, so is that indirectly)?
    He's also ordered to kill the sniper in The Living Daylights, unless his orders were to "protect" the man on the street which could also be seen as indirect I suppose.
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