No Time To Die: Production Diary

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  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited May 2016 Posts: 8,395
    Birdleson wrote: »
    His views on blacks, Koreans and many other groups are fairly clear. He is a proponent of British imperialism.

    Chortle.

    Presume @JawsIsAlive would see no inherent ludicrousness in a faithful adaptation of the novel GF with a Korean actor playing Bond?

    I've already said, if you're adapting the books faithfully then of course Bond has to be white, it's just a matter of plausibility. In the fifties you weren't likely to have Scottish-Swiss black Imperialists educated at Eton.

    My point is that whiteness isn't relevant to a modern interpretation of the character, the same reason we can have a female M and a black Moneypenny. You want Bond to start referring to people as negros because that's how it's written in the books?

    Christ, all this idiotic talk of PC and SJWs makes me feel l like I've wondered onto some sort of Partridge esque parody of the right wing.

    You think that not wanting a specific characters race to change arbitrarily is a breach of civil rights. That somehow black actors have just as much claim to white characters as white actors do. If anyone is the parody here, it's you.
  • Posts: 4,325
    It could be worse ... we could have an American playing Bond.
  • Posts: 233
    I love the James Bond novels, but i can accept them for what they are; products of their time. I'm happy that Bond has been able to survive and adapt to the changing world around him while maintaining the core of the character, and I think it's a good thing that as a society we've become less accepting of prejudice and we afford more opportunities for marginalised groups.

    You lot might want Bond to stay in some sort of 1950s stasis, irrespective of the world around him, but i really hope that audiences at large has reached a point where they don't care if the actor playing James Bond happens to be black, or Asian, or ginger.

    If you make this sort of thing a sticking point then you risk becoming consigned to the dustbin of history, like all those morons who kicked up a fuss about a Scottish milkman playing James Bond.
  • Posts: 2,483
    bondjames wrote: »
    @JawIsAlive, the discussion is moot anyway. If you consider the pool of actors out there, the chances that the best one for Bond is black is quite slim, just on a pure probability basis. So really, this is more of an academic theorethical discussion rather than anything else. A bit of a time killer really.

    I get your point on a 'British' person being black or Asian etc. On that I agree. I too have moved beyond 'ethnic origin' when defining or labelling someone.

    It goes beyond that though. What makes this whole discussion so frustrating is how its framed as "about time" for a black Bond. If Elba loses out now, in some circles it will be construed that he was snubbed BECAUSE of his race. So with Bond #8 the pressure on EON will be even greater. So for the time being, it's all very well saying that being black shouldn't get in the way, but after repeated black actors aren't given the role, the argument will change to "why hasn't there been a black Bond?" Eventually the SJWs will turn into a civil rights case like they did with the Oscars.

    Good point. What's more, if a black is ever cast as Bond then that role will be seen by many as a role that should remain black from then on--reverting to a white actor would be decried as "rolling back social progress"--and other races/ethnicities will then be competing for their "fair share" of Bond. If a black is ever cast as Bond, then a true, white Bond could then become a rare occurrence. And many people would think that's just peachy.

  • Posts: 2,483
    Murdock wrote: »
    Casting Caucasian Actors as Asian characters causes mass controversy and uproar. Casting Black actors as Bond, Great idea! You Go Girl! How progressive. Some double standards.

    Exactly. In the US there have been mighty furors when a white woman plays Cleopatra even though Cleopatra was in actuality at least 3/4 Greek!

  • Posts: 2,483
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I just googled Aidan Turner, he looks like a fey pixie. Are you people out of your fricking minds!?!

    I feel the same way about Hiddleston.

  • Posts: 2,483
    Murdock wrote: »
    Casting Caucasian Actors as Asian characters causes mass controversy and uproar. Casting Black actors as Bond, Great idea! You Go Girl! How progressive. Some double standards.

    I think there is a big difference between a Caucasian pretending to be Asian and a coloured actor playing a part. Elba won't be pretending to be white, he will just be portraying his version on Bond.

    Who was created as a white character, and has remained white throughout his history.

  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited May 2016 Posts: 8,395
    I love the James Bond novels, but i can accept them for what they are; products of their time. I'm happy that Bond has been able to survive and adapt to the changing world around him while maintaining the core of the character, and I think it's a good thing that as a society we've become less accepting of prejudice and we afford more opportunities for marginalised groups.

    You lot might want Bond to stay in some sort of 1950s stasis, irrespective of the world around him, but i really hope that audiences at large has reached a point where they don't care if the actor playing James Bond happens to be black, or Asian, or ginger.

    If you make this sort of thing a sticking point then you risk becoming consigned to the dustbin of history, like all those morons who kicked up a fuss about a Scottish milkman playing James Bond.

    But explain to me why wanting the character of Bond to remain white is the equvilant of wanting 'some sort of 1950s stasis'? How is the character being white somehow an old fashioned, antiquated idea?

    You keep bringing up the Scottish thing, but like I keep telling you, no one was pushing for that. What you are saying is that we should change something just to appease a certain demographic. That's different from hiring Dalton who happened to be Welsh, or Brosnan who happened to be Irish. There is nothing out of touch about a white guy playing Bond. Stop pretending like its some sort of issue that needs to be addressed.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Just imagine the following scenario in 2022.
    Disney owns the Bond franchise.

    They plan a new start:
    Justin Bieber as Bond
    Selena Gomez as Bond girl
    Daisy Ridley as Moneypenny

    JJAbrams will direct.


    Now imagine this:

    2022:
    Hiddleston, Elba or Hardy are playing Bond. The Sooby-Gang is the same as in SP.
    Any complaints?
  • Posts: 2,483
    Murdock wrote: »
    Casting Caucasian Actors as Asian characters causes mass controversy and uproar. Casting Black actors as Bond, Great idea! You Go Girl! How progressive. Some double standards.

    This is the last time I'll address this. There is a clear difference here, particularly in the balance of power. You have very few black, asian, and minority ethnic protagonists in Western cinema, so when you recast a minority character as a white person, you're only enforcing an existing prejudice.

    Moving back into Bond, a black British man playing a traditionally white British character is a perfectly sensible interpretation of the character. The only difference is the colour of their skin. There is nothing about Bond's character that necessitates a particular ethnicity.

    Have you crunched the numbers, mate? My impression is that, in comparison to their percentage within the West, they are probably overrepresented, and that goes for protagonists as well. Certainly they receive cinematic awards over and above their percentage of the population. And this is no surprise; pop industry panjandrums live in fear of being labeled racists so they cast movies in such a way as to protect their vulnerable flanks.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2016 Posts: 23,883
    @JawIsAlive, are you advocating that a black man 1) should be James Bond, or that a black man 2) should not be eliminated from consideration for James Bond?

    If it's the former, then I disagree. I think Bond should remain white. That's my opinion.

    If it's the latter, then I agree but only as long as the actor in question is 'British' enough and can project Bondian attributes and characteristics. Then I don't think he should be eliminated from the pool of considered actors in the interest of fairness.

    However, as I said, even in this case, he is likely to be eliminated purely from a probability standpoint. There is just a far larger pool of white actors who fit the Bond mold as envisaged by many, including Fleming.
  • doubleonothingdoubleonothing Los Angeles
    Posts: 864
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  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    bondjames wrote: »

    However, as I said, even in this case, he is likely to be eliminated purely from a probability standpoint. There is just a far larger pool of white actors who fit the Bond mold as envisaged by many, including Fleming.

    Exactly.
  • Posts: 233
    My preference for the next actor to play James Bond would be Fassbender, followed by Turner. I don't actively want them to make James Bond black immediately, nor do I think it's "about time". I just don't think ethnicity should be a factor in the decision. If a non white actor could play Bond while retaining his character and British identity, he shouldn't be dismissed on the basis of his race. That's all I'm saying.
  • Posts: 2,483
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    Bond's character = white imperialist (all his villains are foreigners, the novels were created out of a xenophobic fantasy where the British Empire still rules the roost), sexist, homophobe (Wint and Kidd - gay characters are also villains - incidentally why DAF now has a '12' certifcate in the UK) killer, loner
    That's probably why he's such a target of the PC crowd wishing for a black Bond. It's become somewhat of a mission for them.

    Yeah PC crowd are annoying - shouldn't they be more concerned about his treatment of women and the fact that he kills people than being racist about his skin colour?

    According to contemporary Western values, racism is worse than murder. No foolin'.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    doubleoego wrote: »

    I didn't realize that was an old article at first, so all I could think was "Damn, Oyelowo is looking rough for only being 24 years old somehow!"
  • Posts: 2,483
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    Bond's character = white imperialist (all his villains are foreigners, the novels were created out of a xenophobic fantasy where the British Empire still rules the roost), sexist, homophobe (Wint and Kidd - gay characters are also villains - incidentally why DAF now has a '12' certifcate in the UK) killer, loner
    That's probably why he's such a target of the PC crowd wishing for a black Bond. It's become somewhat of a mission for them.

    Yeah PC crowd are annoying - shouldn't they be more concerned about his treatment of women
    Arguably Babs herself went through such a phase during the Brosnan era (starting with Dench M's dressing down in GE and infamous Natalya beach scene and culminating in the sap TWINE) before she came to her senses and brought in Craig.

    Yes I liked the way they didn't shy away from his treatment of women in Casino Royale and QoS with the Fields scene. That's his character - it's a character flaw of Bond's (and Fleming's actually, he treated Muriel Wright in the most deplorable of ways), character flaws are what make characters interesting.

    You're spot on about character flaws. The problem these days is that the SJW brigade see being a straight, white, male as a character flaw. The irony is, every creed and colour enjoy Bond. It's merely a small band of desperately insecure individuals who need a safe space from such a heathen of a man.

    They don't care about characters, they only care about positive representation.

    What they strive for is blanket mediocrity. Let's all stay down here on this level playing field in case someone is angry about somebody else's success.

    It's maddening whenever some magazine or website is ranking all the Bond films, and the writer is quite clearly an SJW based on how much they allow a few off-colour remarks to impact their opinion to such a degree. Live And Let Die is a very common target for this. As someone who loves that film, I can't tell you how many reviews I've read of LALD that have their own little section talking about have reprehensible the film is to modern audiences. And I'm like, "have you ever read the source material, mate?"
    What's even worse is on several occasions I have seen the same reviewer go on to lament the fact that there has only ever been one black villain in the series!

    Damned if you do; damned if you don't.

  • Posts: 2,483
    Birdleson wrote: »
    His views on blacks, Koreans and many other groups are fairly clear. He is a proponent of British imperialism.

    Chortle.

    Presume @JawsIsAlive would see no inherent ludicrousness in a faithful adaptation of the novel GF with a Korean actor playing Bond?

    I've already said, if you're adapting the books faithfully then of course Bond has to be white, it's just a matter of plausibility. In the fifties you weren't likely to have Scottish-Swiss black Imperialists educated at Eton.

    My point is that whiteness isn't relevant to a modern interpretation of the character, the same reason we can have a female M and a black Moneypenny. You want Bond to start referring to people as negros because that's how it's written in the books?

    Christ, all this idiotic talk of PC and SJWs makes me feel l like I've wondered onto some sort of Partridge esque parody of the right wing.

    You're free to wander back out.

  • Posts: 233
    I love the James Bond novels, but i can accept them for what they are; products of their time. I'm happy that Bond has been able to survive and adapt to the changing world around him while maintaining the core of the character, and I think it's a good thing that as a society we've become less accepting of prejudice and we afford more opportunities for marginalised groups.

    You lot might want Bond to stay in some sort of 1950s stasis, irrespective of the world around him, but i really hope that audiences at large has reached a point where they don't care if the actor playing James Bond happens to be black, or Asian, or ginger.

    If you make this sort of thing a sticking point then you risk becoming consigned to the dustbin of history, like all those morons who kicked up a fuss about a Scottish milkman playing James Bond.

    But explain to me why wanting the character of Bond to remain white is the equvilant of wanting 'some sort of 1950s stasis'? How is the character being white somehow an old fashioned, antiquated idea?

    You keep bringing up the Scottish thing, but like I keep telling you, no one was pushing for that. What you are saying is that we should change something just to appease a certain demographic. That's different from hiring Dalton who happened to be Welsh, or Brosnan who happened to be Irish. There is nothing out of touch about a white guy playing Bond. Stop pretending like its some sort of issue that needs to be addressed.

    This is my point exactly! I'm not saying we should change Bond's ethnicity to appease anyone, but how is casting an actor who happens to be black any different from casting an actor who happens to have green eyes? As long as they can act the part, why is skin colour a deal breaker?
  • Posts: 2,483
    I love the James Bond novels, but i can accept them for what they are; products of their time. I'm happy that Bond has been able to survive and adapt to the changing world around him while maintaining the core of the character, and I think it's a good thing that as a society we've become less accepting of prejudice and we afford more opportunities for marginalised groups.

    You lot might want Bond to stay in some sort of 1950s stasis, irrespective of the world around him, but i really hope that audiences at large has reached a point where they don't care if the actor playing James Bond happens to be black, or Asian, or ginger.

    If you make this sort of thing a sticking point then you risk becoming consigned to the dustbin of history, like all those morons who kicked up a fuss about a Scottish milkman playing James Bond.

    Well you obviously care. A great deal.

  • edited May 2016 Posts: 4,325
    Personally I want them to have a smoking Bond again - he smokes, he like cigarettes. How did the most un-PC character become so PC?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    @tanaka123, I've been saying that for a long time now, on top of how perfect it would've been to re-introduce smoking into Bond's life during his time of 'enjoying death' in SF. I doubt we'll ever see that day again, God forbid we subject children's eyes to the horrors of smoking a cigarette in films that involve lots and lots of death and sex.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    I love the James Bond novels, but i can accept them for what they are; products of their time. I'm happy that Bond has been able to survive and adapt to the changing world around him while maintaining the core of the character, and I think it's a good thing that as a society we've become less accepting of prejudice and we afford more opportunities for marginalised groups.

    You lot might want Bond to stay in some sort of 1950s stasis, irrespective of the world around him, but i really hope that audiences at large has reached a point where they don't care if the actor playing James Bond happens to be black, or Asian, or ginger.

    If you make this sort of thing a sticking point then you risk becoming consigned to the dustbin of history, like all those morons who kicked up a fuss about a Scottish milkman playing James Bond.

    But explain to me why wanting the character of Bond to remain white is the equvilant of wanting 'some sort of 1950s stasis'? How is the character being white somehow an old fashioned, antiquated idea?

    You keep bringing up the Scottish thing, but like I keep telling you, no one was pushing for that. What you are saying is that we should change something just to appease a certain demographic. That's different from hiring Dalton who happened to be Welsh, or Brosnan who happened to be Irish. There is nothing out of touch about a white guy playing Bond. Stop pretending like its some sort of issue that needs to be addressed.

    This is my point exactly! I'm not saying we should change Bond's ethnicity to appease anyone, but how is casting an actor who happens to be black any different from casting an actor who happens to have green eyes? As long as they can act the part, why is skin colour a deal breaker?

    Because it's an on/off visual transformation. The closest we have come to something similar is in the eyes, hair and height of the actors, but that's only because NO MATTER who they picked, they would always look slightly different than the last guy, have a different place of birth for instance. Those are things that EON couldn't control no matter who they pick. Race is an different matter.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2016 Posts: 23,883
    @tanaka123, there is such a stigma against smoking these days that we'll never see that again unfortunately - unless it's a cigar.

    I found it particularly offensive that Bond said 'filthy habit' in TND though. That was a bastardization & step too far imho, and reminded me of the old 'Charles Atlas' ads. Almost where Bond becomes an advocate for good behaviour. Shitting on Fleming imho.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    @bondjames, and not only that...but Bond smokes in DAD! So this unnecessary statement that Bond utters to himself is completely negated two movies later.
  • Posts: 6,432
    bondjames wrote: »
    @tanaka123, there is such a stigma against smoking these days that we'll never see that again unfortunately - unless it's a cigar.

    I found it particularly offensive that Bond said 'filthy habit' in TND though. That was a bastardization & step too far imho, and reminded me of the old 'Charles Atlas' ads. Almost where Bond becomes an advocate for good behaviour. Shitting on Fleming imho.

    I took that as Bonds disgust at maybe smoking, though that suspiciously looked like a Joint. So I took it as more distaste toward drugs.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2016 Posts: 23,883
    @Creasy47, TND is a film where they were getting their feet wet I think. The first one post-Cubby. I think Babs was toying with the character and trying to make him more acceptable to a new generation - that was something I was quite unhappy with.

    I always bring up 'the slap'. The Bond I know would have caught that hand mid trajectory. He got it square in the face again in TWINE. Unacceptable.

    I think by DAD they realized they needed to re inject some 'alpha' back. Hence the cigar among other things.
  • RC7RC7
    edited May 2016 Posts: 10,512
    bondjames wrote: »
    @tanaka123, there is such a stigma against smoking these days that we'll never see that again unfortunately - unless it's a cigar.

    I found it particularly offensive that Bond said 'filthy habit' in TND though. That was a bastardization & step too far imho, and reminded me of the old 'Charles Atlas' ads. Almost where Bond becomes an advocate for good behaviour. Shitting on Fleming imho.

    I always thought that was deliberately ironic. He's taking the piss.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2016 Posts: 23,883
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    @tanaka123, there is such a stigma against smoking these days that we'll never see that again unfortunately - unless it's a cigar.

    I found it particularly offensive that Bond said 'filthy habit' in TND though. That was a bastardization & step too far imho, and reminded me of the old 'Charles Atlas' ads. Almost where Bond becomes an advocate for good behaviour. Shitting on Fleming imho.

    I was always thought that was dileberately ironic. He's taking the piss.
    In which case it works then.
    bondjames wrote: »
    @tanaka123, there is such a stigma against smoking these days that we'll never see that again unfortunately - unless it's a cigar.

    I found it particularly offensive that Bond said 'filthy habit' in TND though. That was a bastardization & step too far imho, and reminded me of the old 'Charles Atlas' ads. Almost where Bond becomes an advocate for good behaviour. Shitting on Fleming imho.

    I took that as Bonds disgust at maybe smoking, though that suspiciously looked like a Joint. So I took it as more distaste toward drugs.
    If it was a joint then it's more acceptable, but still seemed a little like a 'Charles Atlas' or Captain America/Superman'esque moment when I first watched it.
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