Is Moonraker the most used novel of Fleming?

2

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  • Posts: 9,846
    mtm wrote: »
    Oh, I'm a dumbass. I completely blanked in the blowing up London bit. That is of course very much a similarity...

    I guess the bit about 006 using the explosion to cover up his stealing from the banks echoes Drax's playing the stock market to profit from London's destruction, although it's been such long time since I read it I'm going from Herr-Stockman's description as I don't remember that bit :)

    I guess you can also add that The World Is Not Enough features M asking Bond to help with a personal problem (as he asks Bond in the novel to try and catch out Drax cheating at his club) but it's not quite as 'off the books' in the film.

    There is elements of MR in the finale of QoS too, when Bond is contemplating death with Camille, before he finds his way out of the fire by shooting the cannister. Also, the way she walks away from the car and leaves Bond is reminiscent of the end in MR, where a relationship is not forged, the only difference being that she doesn't walk off with another man like Gala Brand did.

    for such a Fleming story Quantum should of had more Fleming characters included
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,298
    And TSWLM's missiles hitting their own submarines...although you could also say that is from the CR novel.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Does anyone have a list (or cares to start one) of the spots where elements from the novels are used in the movies. For me it took a post somewhere in this forum to realize the closeness of DAD and MR, the novel and this thread is the first time I've heard GE and SF mentioned in this context. There must be loads I am not aware of.

    Going on from this and talking about MR specifically: There is a real question on what we would consider a "use" of a novel. Is the intention of the writer the important part? Is every occasion where we can make out a similarity really a "use" of the novel?

    F.e. I can kind of see the connection between Trevelyan and Drax, but I wouldn't go so far as to say one was inspired by the other (I have no idea, if the writers said so). The important characterstics of Drax to me have always been that he is hailed a hero by the public but is actually a villain, the compulsive cheating/need to win and of course the secret backstory. To me Trevelyan has maybe 1,5 of those three (the secret backstory and half of the hero thing. Half because his "sacrifice" was of course never public so it barely compares).
    For Silva, I don't really see it at all..

    As for a specific adaptation, I think there still is the possibility of a movie about public hero worship and a turncoat interloper in the highest echelons of British society. I don't think you would have him (or her) gift the UK a Weapon of Mass Destruction with Counter-Strike capabilities as a globar deterrent, but there are loads of stuff one could come up with that doesn't have to be a giant space laser. Like, I don't know, a fusion reactor that would make the UK the first carbon-neutral country, but is actually a gigantic bomb or used to power whatever.

    For Trevelyan and Silva, both seemingly worked for the UK, but turned traitors. More importantly, both have been disfigured. Trevelyan got disfigured with an explosion even, to cry out loud, and is targeting London out of revenge. I don't think they are carbon based copies of Drax, but were influenced to a degree by him and by the plot of MR.
  • Posts: 5,993
    echo wrote: »
    And TSWLM's missiles hitting their own submarines...although you could also say that is from the CR novel.

    Where, pray tell, is that scene in the novel ?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Gerard wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    And TSWLM's missiles hitting their own submarines...although you could also say that is from the CR novel.

    Where, pray tell, is that scene in the novel ?

    I think he means the MR novel and not CR.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,298
    The MR novel. In the CR novel the Bulgarians blew up each other.
  • Posts: 9,846
    so which is the least used?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    echo wrote: »
    The MR novel. In the CR novel the Bulgarians blew up each other.

    Ah, yes. The Bulgarians with the explosive cameras that were both live bombs. I suppose there is a small similarity there at least in the kernel of the idea.
  • Posts: 5,993
    Bond didn't have much to do with that, though. Unlike in MR.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Gerard wrote: »
    Bond didn't have much to do with that, though. Unlike in MR.

    No, I agree. Nothing really. MR is the usual example cited as the influence on the TSWLM sub mutual destruction scene.
  • Risico007 wrote: »
    so which is the least used?

    Has to be TSWLM with only Sluggsy and Horror visual influences on Jaws and Sandor.
  • Posts: 3,327
    Risico007 wrote: »
    so which is the least used?

    Has to be TSWLM with only Sluggsy and Horror visual influences on Jaws and Sandor.

    Yes. After that probably YOLT, as pretty much none of it made it into the film, other than Bond turning Japanese and getting married.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Risico007 wrote: »
    so which is the least used?

    Has to be TSWLM with only Sluggsy and Horror visual influences on Jaws and Sandor.

    There's also the similarity of Sluggsy hiding in the wardrobe in the motel and Jaws hiding in the wardrobe on the train. Still, I agree, there's slim pickings there. That's largely because the story was so atypical of Bond and then there was Fleming’s stipulation that only the novel's title could be used in any future film.
  • edited December 2020 Posts: 3,327
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Risico007 wrote: »
    so which is the least used?

    Has to be TSWLM with only Sluggsy and Horror visual influences on Jaws and Sandor.

    There's also the similarity of Sluggsy hiding in the wardrobe in the motel and Jaws hiding in the wardrobe on the train. Still, I agree, there's slim pickings there. That's largely because the story was so atypical of Bond and then there was Fleming’s stipulation that only the novel's title could be used in any future film.

    Legal wranglings could easily overcome that nearly 60 years later. EON could get the rights if they wanted to.

    As for the book, the parts worth adapting are Viv Michel herself as the Bond girl, her nightmare saga at the motel with Sluggsy and Horror, and then Bond's unexpected arrival to rescue her.

    All of that would make for a pretty cool intro to how Bond meets the next Bond girl. You could probably easily eat up 20 odd minutes of screen time with this short story event, although I would keep Horror and Sluggsy alive. Somehow they escape Bond and live to fight another day - Wint & Kidd style.

    This feels more like it could have appeared in a Tarantino movie. It's the one scene I could imagine Tarantino directing very well if he had his chance at doing a Bond film.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,298
    Risico007 wrote: »
    so which is the least used?

    Has to be TSWLM with only Sluggsy and Horror visual influences on Jaws and Sandor.

    You could argue the hotel and fire of QoS are also inspired by TSWLM.
  • Posts: 3,327
    echo wrote: »
    Risico007 wrote: »
    so which is the least used?

    Has to be TSWLM with only Sluggsy and Horror visual influences on Jaws and Sandor.

    You could argue the hotel and fire of QoS are also inspired by TSWLM.

    Never thought of that before, but yes there is a link.

    I doubt this was a conscious decision on the writers minds when they wrote this into the script though.
  • edited December 2020 Posts: 9,846
    Risico007 wrote: »
    so which is the least used?

    Has to be TSWLM with only Sluggsy and Horror visual influences on Jaws and Sandor.

    see I always felt it was used 3 times


    I have had this argument before but let me point out where certain things were used

    1. The Spy who loved me: obviously the title and 2 of the characters we basically used in the 1977 film
    2. Bond staring down a car and shooting the drive to make the car go over a cliff: when I read that passage in the spy who loved me I immediately thought of For your eyes only realizing ironically the part Moore said was un bond like did come from a Fleming book.
    3. there was a huge influence on Tomorrow never dies. to me the characters of Kurt the newspaper man and Vivine Michael were clearly the inspiration for Elliot Carver and his wife Paris before you think i am nut lets go through this

    1A. Vivine says the reason he sleeps with Kurt is because he said he loved her, in the film Paris says the reason he married Elliot was because he said he loved her
    2A. at the end of the book Viviane makes a point of saying Bond sleeps with a gun under his pillow, in the film Paris makes the same point
    3A. Kurt starts becoming abusive toward his wife and was a newspaper delivery boy, Elliot Carver was abusive toward his wife and owned a media empire



    now of course none of the 3 films were direct adaptions which Fleming forbid but the dna of the book really does fit in with 3 films


    for me it's Diamonds Are forever
  • Posts: 3,327
    Risico007 wrote: »
    Risico007 wrote: »
    so which is the least used?

    Has to be TSWLM with only Sluggsy and Horror visual influences on Jaws and Sandor.

    see I always felt it was used 3 times


    I have had this argument before but let me point out where certain things were used

    1. The Spy who loved me: obviously the title and 2 of the characters we basically used in the 1977 film
    2. Bond staring down a car and shooting the drive to make the car go over a cliff: when I read that passage in the spy who loved me I immediately thought of For your eyes only realizing ironically the part Moore said was un bond like did come from a Fleming book.
    3. there was a huge influence on Tomorrow never dies. to me the characters of Kurt the newspaper man and Vivine Michael were clearly the inspiration for Elliot Carver and his wife Paris before you think i am nut lets go through this

    1A. Vivine says the reason he sleeps with Kurt is because he said he loved her, in the film Paris says the reason he married Elliot was because he said he loved her
    2A. at the end of the book Viviane makes a point of saying Bond sleeps with a gun under his pillow, in the film Paris makes the same point
    3A. Kurt starts becoming abusive toward his wife and was a newspaper delivery boy, Elliot Carver was abusive toward his wife and owned a media empire



    now of course none of the 3 films were direct adaptions which Fleming forbid but the dna of the book really does fit in with 3 films


    for me it's Diamonds Are forever

    DAF gets far more references in its movie version than YOLT got for its movie. Other than being set in Japan and Bond getting married, very little else follows the book at all.
  • Posts: 631
    I’m slightly amazed that after nearly sixty years and over twenty films there is still anything left unused from Fleming’s novels, but in fact there are still many, many scenes, settings and characters which haven’t been touched.

    Most of YOLT the novel is still sitting there, waiting to be filmed. Second half of DAF the novel. The octopus from DN. Lots from MR the novel. Lots from TMWTGG the novel. And so on
  • Posts: 9,846
    I’m slightly amazed that after nearly sixty years and over twenty films there is still anything left unused from Fleming’s novels, but in fact there are still many, many scenes, settings and characters which haven’t been touched.

    Most of YOLT the novel is still sitting there, waiting to be filmed. Second half of DAF the novel. The octopus from DN. Lots from MR the novel. Lots from TMWTGG the novel. And so on

    not noly that but as I have said before with the right writer one dropped line could create a plot in and of itself... in the hildebrand rarity Bond is called to investigate an area to see if a military base can be built there.. the right writer could take that line and the short story A view to a kill and build a whole film around it.
  • Posts: 3,327
    I’m slightly amazed that after nearly sixty years and over twenty films there is still anything left unused from Fleming’s novels, but in fact there are still many, many scenes, settings and characters which haven’t been touched.

    Most of YOLT the novel is still sitting there, waiting to be filmed. Second half of DAF the novel. The octopus from DN. Lots from MR the novel. Lots from TMWTGG the novel. And so on

    Like you said, much of DAF hasn't been used, neither has MR, or YOLT or TMWTGG.
    You forgot to mention TSWLM too. There is at least 20 minutes worth of screen time with Bond meeting Viv Michel in a seedy motel, and then fighting it out with 2 gangsters. I always thought this would make a great scene.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited December 2020 Posts: 6,298
    I’m slightly amazed that after nearly sixty years and over twenty films there is still anything left unused from Fleming’s novels, but in fact there are still many, many scenes, settings and characters which haven’t been touched.

    Most of YOLT the novel is still sitting there, waiting to be filmed. Second half of DAF the novel. The octopus from DN. Lots from MR the novel. Lots from TMWTGG the novel. And so on

    I think a lot this was rightly deemed not filmable or believable, like the squid from DN.

    Is there really a lot of YOLT left to mine? Sure, there's the Garden of Death, toward which Dahl made a half-hearted gesture with the piranha pool. The obituary and the idea of Bond's resurrection showed up in SF (and in YOLT). The balloon pops up in DAF. The rest is mostly travelogue.

    DAF has Wint and Kidd kicking Bond. And Tiffany tied to the train tracks. Like Goodnight tied to the train tracks. Or Madeleine tied up in the building in SP.

    MR has a few great set-pieces and ideas such as the bridge game (is bridge filmic? Isn't it what little old ladies play?), the cliffs of Dover (abused in DAD) and the arc of Gala Brand (sort of done in QoS).

    Indeed, TMWTGG has the cracker opening (if a bit soap opera cliche--amnesia!), the shootout in the swamp, and the coda.

    And then there are the short stories, notably THR's diving and yacht scenes. What does FAVTAK have, a scene of Bond discussing his lost virginity and a fake rosebush?

    Of these, MR and TMWTGG continue to hold the most promise. But I wouldn't say there is a ton of Fleming left. Or we would have seen it by now.
  • Posts: 3,327
    echo wrote: »
    I’m slightly amazed that after nearly sixty years and over twenty films there is still anything left unused from Fleming’s novels, but in fact there are still many, many scenes, settings and characters which haven’t been touched.

    Most of YOLT the novel is still sitting there, waiting to be filmed. Second half of DAF the novel. The octopus from DN. Lots from MR the novel. Lots from TMWTGG the novel. And so on

    I think a lot this was rightly deemed not filmable or believable, like the squid from DN.

    Is there really a lot of YOLT left to mine? Sure, there's the Garden of Death, toward which Dahl made a half-hearted gesture with the piranha pool. The obituary and the idea of Bond's resurrection showed up in SF (and in YOLT). The balloon pops up in DAF. The rest is mostly travelogue.

    DAF has Wint and Kidd kicking Bond. And Tiffany tied to the train tracks. Like Goodnight tied to the train tracks. Or Madeleine tied up in the building in SP.

    MR has a few great set-pieces and ideas such as the bridge game (is bridge filmic? Isn't it what little old ladies play?), the cliffs of Dover (abused in DAD) and the arc of Gala Brand (sort of done in QoS).

    Indeed, TMWTGG has the cracker opening (if a bit soap opera cliche--amnesia!), the shootout in the swamp, and the coda.

    And then there are the short stories, notably THR's diving and yacht scenes. What does FAVTAK have, a scene of Bond discussing his lost virginity and a fake rosebush?

    Of these, MR and TMWTGG continue to hold the most promise. But I wouldn't say there is a ton of Fleming left. Or we would have seen it by now.

    I think its been more an executive decision that these remaining Fleming scenes have never been seen. Cubby made a conscious decision after MR to go back to Fleming, starting with FYEO, and this trend continued right the way through to LTK 10 years later, whether it was adapting a whole short story, or interweaving previous unused scenes from the novels. Of course, a change of actor in Dalton helped too, as he also pushed for it.

    Since Barbara took over the reigns, the trend has been to either ignore the books entirely, and focus on `original' scripts instead, or retcon Fleming and try and go for Fleming re-imagined - which is why we've had a very mixed bag ever since. The Brosnan era gave us the worst 4 films in the franchise, and SP is not too far behind.

    The only standout film from her reign is CR, because it went back to the Fleming novel. After that you could say SF, but again, this feels the most like a Fleming novel too.
  • Dragonpol wrote: »
    Risico007 wrote: »
    so which is the least used?

    Has to be TSWLM with only Sluggsy and Horror visual influences on Jaws and Sandor.

    There's also the similarity of Sluggsy hiding in the wardrobe in the motel and Jaws hiding in the wardrobe on the train. Still, I agree, there's slim pickings there. That's largely because the story was so atypical of Bond and then there was Fleming’s stipulation that only the novel's title could be used in any future film.
    echo wrote: »
    Risico007 wrote: »
    so which is the least used?

    Has to be TSWLM with only Sluggsy and Horror visual influences on Jaws and Sandor.

    You could argue the hotel and fire of QoS are also inspired by TSWLM.
    Risico007 wrote: »
    Risico007 wrote: »
    so which is the least used?

    Has to be TSWLM with only Sluggsy and Horror visual influences on Jaws and Sandor.

    see I always felt it was used 3 times


    I have had this argument before but let me point out where certain things were used

    1. The Spy who loved me: obviously the title and 2 of the characters we basically used in the 1977 film
    2. Bond staring down a car and shooting the drive to make the car go over a cliff: when I read that passage in the spy who loved me I immediately thought of For your eyes only realizing ironically the part Moore said was un bond like did come from a Fleming book.
    3. there was a huge influence on Tomorrow never dies. to me the characters of Kurt the newspaper man and Vivine Michael were clearly the inspiration for Elliot Carver and his wife Paris before you think i am nut lets go through this

    1A. Vivine says the reason he sleeps with Kurt is because he said he loved her, in the film Paris says the reason he married Elliot was because he said he loved her
    2A. at the end of the book Viviane makes a point of saying Bond sleeps with a gun under his pillow, in the film Paris makes the same point
    3A. Kurt starts becoming abusive toward his wife and was a newspaper delivery boy, Elliot Carver was abusive toward his wife and owned a media empire



    now of course none of the 3 films were direct adaptions which Fleming forbid but the dna of the book really does fit in with 3 films


    for me it's Diamonds Are forever

    Good points all. The hotel fire at the end of Quantum of Solace was one that occurred to me moments after I posted that.

    @Risico007, those are great observations. I hadn't considered any of them before but the FYEO connection is spot-on and you make a very compelling case for the TND connection as well.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Risico007 wrote: »
    so which is the least used?

    Has to be TSWLM with only Sluggsy and Horror visual influences on Jaws and Sandor.

    Yes. After that probably YOLT, as pretty much none of it made it into the film, other than Bond turning Japanese and getting married.

    YOLT has been used more and more as of recently: Bond passing for dead, his obituary in SF, action set in Asia, etc.
  • This thread has really got me thinking; What happens when they DO exhaust every bit of Fleming Material from the books. It won’t happen for a long time at this rate, but it’s an interesting question to ponder.
  • Posts: 3,327
    This thread has really got me thinking; What happens when they DO exhaust every bit of Fleming Material from the books. It won’t happen for a long time at this rate, but it’s an interesting question to ponder.

    Colonel Sun and then the Horowitz novels.... ;)
  • This thread has really got me thinking; What happens when they DO exhaust every bit of Fleming Material from the books. It won’t happen for a long time at this rate, but it’s an interesting question to ponder.

    Colonel Sun and then the Horowitz novels.... ;)

    Well that’s one solution
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    This thread has really got me thinking; What happens when they DO exhaust every bit of Fleming Material from the books. It won’t happen for a long time at this rate, but it’s an interesting question to ponder.

    Nothing will change; they haven't exactly been relying on them since the 70s.
    This thread has really got me thinking; What happens when they DO exhaust every bit of Fleming Material from the books. It won’t happen for a long time at this rate, but it’s an interesting question to ponder.

    Colonel Sun and then the Horowitz novels.... ;)

    And of course Colonel Sun has already been used a couple of times.

  • mtm wrote: »
    This thread has really got me thinking; What happens when they DO exhaust every bit of Fleming Material from the books. It won’t happen for a long time at this rate, but it’s an interesting question to ponder.

    Nothing will change; they haven't exactly been relying on them since the 70s.
    This thread has really got me thinking; What happens when they DO exhaust every bit of Fleming Material from the books. It won’t happen for a long time at this rate, but it’s an interesting question to ponder.

    Colonel Sun and then the Horowitz novels.... ;)

    And of course Colonel Sun has already been used a couple of times.

    I’m not too sure about that. Glen’s run from 81-89 all heavily adapted the short stories, or at least borrowed elements from them.

    Goldeneye took the plot structure of the Moonraker novel, and reworked it into what it became. As did DAD to an extent.

    I agree they don’t need to rely on Fleming, or even other authors for that matter, but it’s nice every time they go back to the source.
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