Would Bond have survived & thrived into the 21st Century without Brosnan?

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2015 Posts: 23,883
    @Mark_Hazzard, I agree that EON's lack of direction and MGM's possible meddling had a negative impact on the scripts that Brosnan was given during his run. That's for sure.

    Having said that, he, like all the other actors before him, had the books to fall back on and could have captured the essence of the character via these if he wanted to. All of the Bond actors before him seemed to do that in their earlier movies.

    I agree with you that he captured a lot of Bond in GE (I'm not sure if it was in fact written for Dalton as you note), but his performance was surprisingly guarded & noticeably anxious on screen imho. Sean Bean in contrast appeared so much more fluid & confident than Brosnan in that one, as did nearly the entire supporting cast. I was a much younger fella back then and as I've said elsewhere, was so looking forward to Brosnan in the role. I came away loving the movie and its style (including his style in it) but remember wondering why the man I had wanted as Bond for so long was so seemingly unassertive/stiff in the role which was apparently made for him. He seemed more confident at the end of the famous teaser trailer ("You were expecting someone else?").

    In TND, to me at least, he seemed to portray a greatest hits of the movie Bond character (bringing in a lot of later Roger Moore movie characteristics rather than harder edged early Moore at his best in LALD/TMWTGG/TSWLM).

    The sentimentality that you note he requested did not work in his favour imho, because it seemed to inject a certain soap operatic melodrama in my eyes that, to me at least, overcame his Bond characterization.

    I've never paid much attention to the critics - then or now. I think they heaped too much critical praise on Brosnan during his run (including the 2nd coming of Connery comparisons, which retrospectively looked premature).

    To some extent I also think they may be heaping too much praise on Daniel Craig now. Only with the benefit of time will we be able to critically review his performance objectively, separate from the movies, and determine if he is worthy of the #2 slot behind Connery. He's certainly off to a good start because his portrayal is at least consistent - I feel like I know the essence of the man who is appearing on screen irrespective of the movie or the director.

    So it's true that Brosnan was done no favours by EON or MGM, but regardless, his performances had a manufactured aspect to them - for much of the time it appeared unauthentic to me at least, and the noted mutability in his characterization across movies compounded this impression.

    Having said all that, the first two and last movie he did are all very entertaining and I enjoy them for different reasons. The third is a snoozer which I personally do not like at all.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I disagree about the Brosnan films feeling like Cubby movies. Not at all IMO. They are clearly going for that vibe but something was very definitely missing.
  • Mark_HazzardMark_Hazzard Classified
    Posts: 127
    @bondjames Interesting point of view. I agree that he had the source material, like the others, but if I'm correct Dalton's the only one who actually studied it. I remember Connery saying in an interview for DAF that he only read about 3 books and I think Craig has read about the same. Maybe Brozza could've used that to his advantage.

    In TND he probably did do a "greatest hits" portrayal of the character (well spoken, @bondjames), although I still think the script/EON's (lack of) direction is to blame for. But I also think that TND as a whole is "Bond on auto-pilot" or "greatest hits" collection, although I have to add that it executes it extremely well. It's clear EON sticked closely to the formula.

    Maybe I'm mistaken or overestimating the man, but I always thought Brozza was meant to play a rather inconfident Bond due to his relation with 006. For instance, I find Pierce's performance during the interrogation scene with Mishkin very strong. However, I understand that he could be somewhat underwhelming after seeing the teaser and his long-awaited appearance.

    Maybe that's something he was struggling with too? The pressure? He literally said in "Everything or nothing" about the part that it were "big shoes to fill" and "fewer men have walked on the moon". He does admit being nervous the first time on set he had to say "Bond, James Bond". The way he speaks about "Roger would come in and Sean would too. Eventually I stopped fighting them and just let them in". Oddly, I do think he nails it when he says the particular line in GE, IMO.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I think Brosnan did feel the pressure @Mark_Hazzard - you're correct on that - that and a possible lack of mentoring (Cubby was gone, Barbara & Michael were still feeling their way about, and there were new inexperienced directors coming in like a revolving door) could not have helped.

    I'm not knocking the man - he did his best with what he was given and he gave us some entertaining Bond movies - no doubt about that. I just feel he could have been so much more than he was - and although circumstances were certainly to blame he also has to shoulder some of it.
  • Mark_HazzardMark_Hazzard Classified
    Posts: 127
    Absolutely agree it could have been more @bondjames. Apparently he feels the same way. That's why I regret the writing process didn't continue the way it did with GE, writing it with Dalton/Fleming's Bond in mind.

    I know you're not bashing Brozza. You're statements clearly express too much admiration for his films. Neither am I disagreeing with you. I think we mostly actually agree.
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Agree with both of you . Have been saying for years that Brosnan was capable of a lot more - he didn't have anyone to help him mould his Bond into a distinct take on the character . What was lacking, and what he has displayed elsewhere, was a more morally complex charCter. Brosnan's Bond should have been less 2 dimensionally the hero.

    I actually think Tarantino + Brosnan would have been fascinating.

    I do think though that ultimately Brosnan does bear responsibility for his own performances. I don't see Daniel Craig waiting for a director to come along and tell him how to play Bond .
  • Posts: 11,119
    Getafix wrote: »
    Agree with both of you . Have been saying for years that Brosnan was capable of a lot more - he didn't have anyone to help him mould his Bond into a distinct take on the character . What was lacking, and what he has displayed elsewhere, was a more morally complex charCter. Brosnan's Bond should have been less 2 dimensionally the hero.

    I actually think Tarantino + Brosnan would have been fascinating.

    I do think though that ultimately Brosnan does bear responsibility for his own performances. I don't see Daniel Craig waiting for a director to come along and tell him how to play Bond .


    Let's not forget that it was Daniel Craig's suggestion to bring Sam Mendes onboard. In a way Craig is the first creative consultant turned Bond actor as well, though uncredited.
  • Posts: 1,778
    Getafix wrote: »
    I disagree about the Brosnan films feeling like Cubby movies. Not at all IMO. They are clearly going for that vibe but something was very definitely missing.

    Like I said it was a strange hybrid. It was the kids taking Dad's car out for a ride. That was my problem with the Brosnan Era. The films weren't good enough to be considered Cubby movies and they're not good enough to be considered MGW/BB movies. At times they felt like they were being made by an entirely different studio/group of people.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Let's not forget that it was Daniel Craig's suggestion to bring Sam Mendes onboard. In a way Craig is the first creative consultant turned Bond actor as well, though uncredited.
    Yes, this definitely IS the case. Craig isn't just another actor.
  • Posts: 1,778
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Let's not forget that it was Daniel Craig's suggestion to bring Sam Mendes onboard. In a way Craig is the first creative consultant turned Bond actor as well, though uncredited.
    Yes, this definitely IS the case. Craig isn't just another actor.

    I think we can all agree on this. No past Bond actor has ever had nearly as much pull behind the scenes as Craig. I heard Craig was also partially responsible for Adele doing the theme song for Skyfall.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    The fact that he co-wrote most of QOS with Forster on the fly still impresses the hell out of me.
  • Posts: 2,000
    Bondjames said his performances had a manufactured aspect to them - for much of the time it appeared unauthentic to me at least, and the noted mutability in his characterization across movies compounded this impression.

    That's also the opinion I have of Moore. Too much awareness of playing the character, not being the character. But I enjoy Brosnan as an actor. Unburdened of the baggage it takes to play Bond, he's quite good in comedy, drama, and action. Playing Bond is not the same as playing other roles; Bond comes with history.

    Among the actors to play Bond to date, next to Craig, I feel Brosnan is the next most accomplished actor. I know SC won an oscar, but Brosnan has demonstrated a much wider range. Of course DC was the most accomplished big screen actor to helm the role. He just took it and made it his. SC's career after Bond never amounted to much, other than Indy & The Untouchables. PB has had a very good post-Bond career. Craig has had the most active career during his Bond years.

    I hope our next Bond won't be one who does light comedy better than he does being Bond.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Ummm.... :-O
  • Posts: 709
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Let's not forget that it was Daniel Craig's suggestion to bring Sam Mendes onboard. In a way Craig is the first creative consultant turned Bond actor as well, though uncredited.
    Yes, this definitely IS the case. Craig isn't just another actor.

    I think we can all agree on this. No past Bond actor has ever had nearly as much pull behind the scenes as Craig. I heard Craig was also partially responsible for Adele doing the theme song for Skyfall.

    In addition to Mendes, its probably not a coincidence that several former DC co-stars have ended up in Bond films - Jeffrey Wright, Ben Whishaw, Mathieu Amalric
  • Posts: 11,425
    [quote="Getafix;442
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 1,552
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Among the actors to play Bond to date, next to Craig, I feel Brosnan is the next most accomplished actor. I know SC won an oscar, but Brosnan has demonstrated a much wider range. Of course DC was the most accomplished big screen actor to helm the role. He just took it and made it his. SC's career after Bond never amounted to much, other than Indy & The Untouchables. PB has had a very good post-Bond career. Craig has had the most active career during his Bond years.

    I hope our next Bond won't be one who does light comedy better than he does being Bond.
    Timothy Dalton was, by far, more accomplished than Brosnan. He was a respected theatre actor, with training at the National Youth Theatre and RADA, he had early credits with dramatic BBC roles, including an accredited role as Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights and Mr. Rochester in Jayne Eyre. On stage, he acted with the Royal Shakespeare Company - something many actors aspire to. He was offered the role of Bond early on, in OHMSS - but argued that he was too young, and apparently he was offered the role during Moore's tenure. Also, you can't forget that he was known for the 1980 cult film Flash Gordon,

    I think calling Brosnan the "next most accomplished actor" is mistaken and unfair to Dalton.

    And this isn't taking into account his post Bond roles, with the cult film The Rocketeer, His Dark Materials (in a role Craig also played), Doctor Who, Hot Fuzz, Chuck, Toy Story, etc,
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 1,778
    JCRendle wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Among the actors to play Bond to date, next to Craig, I feel Brosnan is the next most accomplished actor. I know SC won an oscar, but Brosnan has demonstrated a much wider range. Of course DC was the most accomplished big screen actor to helm the role. He just took it and made it his. SC's career after Bond never amounted to much, other than Indy & The Untouchables. PB has had a very good post-Bond career. Craig has had the most active career during his Bond years.

    I hope our next Bond won't be one who does light comedy better than he does being Bond.
    Timothy Dalton was, by far, more accomplished than Brosnan. He was a respected theatre actor, with training at the National Youth Theatre and RADA, he had early credits with dramatic BBC roles, including an accredited role as Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights and Mr. Rochester in Jayne Eyre. On stage, he acted with the Royal Shakespeare Company - something many actors aspire to. He was offered the role of Bond early on, in OHMSS - but argued that he was too young, and apparently he was offered the role during Moore's tenure. Also, you can't forget that he was known for the 1980 cult film Flash Gordon,

    I think calling Brosnan the "next most accomplished actor" is mistaken and unfair to Dalton.

    Thankyou @JCRendel. Many people think that just because Timothy Dalton didn't spend years starring in blockbusters that he had an underwhelming career. But on the contrary Dalton is an actor's actor and within acting circles is far more respected than Pierce Brosnan. But like the song says, Dalton did it his way.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote: »
    I disagree about the Brosnan films feeling like Cubby movies. Not at all IMO. They are clearly going for that vibe but something was very definitely missing.

    Like I said it was a strange hybrid. It was the kids taking Dad's car out for a ride. That was my problem with the Brosnan Era. The films weren't good enough to be considered Cubby movies and they're not good enough to be considered MGW/BB movies. At times they felt like they were being made by an entirely different studio/group of people.

    Agree. This was one of the things that really struck me about the Brosnan era - the changeling of the guard and the strong sense that these films were made by a different group of people. It still feels like that now, but he quality has improved a lot in the Craig era.

    With regards to Dalton I am a big fan, as most on here know already , but I have to say that I do admire the way Brosnan managed his career alongside and post Bond. I think his filmography is now significantly more impressive than Dalton's.

    I don't know if Brosnan is the more accomplished actor (probably not ) but he has made the best of his abilities. Of all the Bond actors I think he is the one who was used the fame to further his career the best. Brosnan still makes me cringe sometimes but he's done some really decent work . Tailor of Panama and The Ghost Writer really stand out for me. In fact I'd go as far as saying I'd rather watch Brosnan these days than Dalton.

    That said, when it comes to Bond there is no competition.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Many people think that just because Timothy Dalton didn't spend years starring in blockbusters that he had an underwhelming career. But on the contrary Dalton is an actor's actor and within acting circles is far more respected than Pierce Brosnan. But like the song says, Dalton did it his way.
    Dalton was and is a great actor. To quote Malcom McDowall's character from Blue Thunder, anyone that tells you different's a damn liar.
    :))
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 11,425
    I wish Dalton had managed his career better, or been better managed. He was a fool for walking away from Bond. Had he finished on a popular movie like GE it would have set him up.

    He seems a bit lost to me. Why the hell does he live in LA? He seems totally unsuited to the place .

    He should have built up a stage and film career like Ian McKellan or Patrick Stewart.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Getafix wrote: »
    Why the hell does he live in LA? He seems totally unsuited to the place .
    To be close to his Son, I'd imagine.
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Why the hell does he live in LA? He seems totally unsuited to the place .
    To be close to his Son, I'd imagine.

    Fair point. Whatever the reason, it doesn't suit him.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Getafix wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Why the hell does he live in LA? He seems totally unsuited to the place .
    To be close to his Son, I'd imagine.

    Fair point. Whatever the reason, it doesn't suit him.

    I agree. He deserves better.
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Why the hell does he live in LA? He seems totally unsuited to the place .
    To be close to his Son, I'd imagine.

    Fair point. Whatever the reason, it doesn't suit him.

    I agree. He deserves better.

    He walked away from Bond to make Scarlet! What was he thinking? Like Laz, he was foolish to turn his back on the greatest role of his career. I think he is (or used to be) a little bit over serious. It's almost like he needed to loosen up a bit and expand his horizons. Actors these days seem to much better at managing their careers. The top guys like to have a big franchise to fall back on, and then weave that in with an arty flick here and there, and a rom com and a comedy. May be actors didn't actually have as much power back then though.

    I'm always surprised that DC hasn't actually done more with his career since CR. He's made some odd choices.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Getafix wrote: »

    He walked away from Bond to make Scarlet!
    He walked away from Bond because he wouldn't take a multi-picture deal, he didn't want to play Bond into his fifties, and because he's an actor, not career-minded self-promoting businessman. Some artists can't be bought. He's clearly one.

  • edited April 2015 Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »

    He walked away from Bond to make Scarlet!
    He walked away from Bond because he wouldn't take a multi-picture deal, he didn't want to play Bond into his fifties, and because he's an actor, not career-minded self-promoting businessman. Some artists can't be bought. He's clearly one.

    It's not about selling out and being totally cynical. I just think sometimes to get to do the stuff you really want to do, you have to be a bit more canny - strategic.

    Brosnan is a good example. He's not a particularly talented actor, but he's used Bond to leverage himself into a position where he can do some interesting stuff. And he does a decent mix of genres .

    I just feel Dalton's obvious commitment to real acting and not selling out has actually denied him and us (his fans) of the better and more interesting work he might have done.

    I also think it's a shame Dalton didn't want to play the role as an older Bond. There was scope to do interesting stuff there I think. Plus, with a few tweaks, GE seemed perfect for Dalton.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited April 2015 Posts: 17,804
    Getafix wrote: »
    Brosnan is a good example. He's not a particularly talented actor, but he's used Bond to leverage himself into a position where he can do some interesting stuff. And he does a decent mix of genres .
    Brosnan is clearly not the actor Dalton is, but there ya have it; we all just do what we do, just like the dinosaurs. Dalton owes us nothing. He graciously gave us two good turns as Bond (along with delicious bad guys in Rocketeer & CHUCK and his work in Dr. Who, Looney Tunes & Penny Dreadful).
    He lives his career on his own terms, and wow am I impressed by that.
  • Posts: 1,778
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »

    He walked away from Bond to make Scarlet!
    He walked away from Bond because he wouldn't take a multi-picture deal, he didn't want to play Bond into his fifties, and because he's an actor, not career-minded self-promoting businessman. Some artists can't be bought. He's clearly one.

    ^This. Dalton walked away from GE because he didn't want to play Bond anymore. Plain and simple. Dalton is a rarity in Hollywood. He's an actor who acts because his passion is acting not chasing money and fame.

    Yes, continuing to play Bond would've led him to greater opportunities but if he really didn't want to play Bond anymore why should he force himself to do 2 or 3 more movies that he didn't want to be part of? I think contractual freedom was worth more to him than money or potential future glory.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    I think contractual freedom was worth more to him than money or potential future glory.
    "Fortune & glory, kid. Fortune & glory."
    :))
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited April 2015 Posts: 4,585
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Let's not forget that it was Daniel Craig's suggestion to bring Sam Mendes onboard. In a way Craig is the first creative consultant turned Bond actor as well, though uncredited.
    Yes, this definitely IS the case. Craig isn't just another actor.

    Might Craig eventually take over at EON? Barb and Michael can't do it forever. I don't have a clue as to whether or not DC would ever be interested in producing, but it's an interesting thought.
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