Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    Posts: 554
    I wouldn't want to just totally rework the core character but doing more with Bond's Naval background would be a really interesting way to differentiate #7 to me.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited January 2023 Posts: 5,970
    I've missed the old trope of Bond meeting with station chiefs like Dikko Henderson, Kerim Bey etc. It meant that when we weren't getting an appearance from Felix we had another rather colourful character for Bond to bounce off on the mission who isn't the main Bond girl or the villain. Mathis was great but I think that was it in the Craig era, which makes sense I guess considering how much they decided to focus on the MI6 regulars from Skyfall.
  • Posts: 1,988
    While no one would (or should) consider Bond great literature, he is nonetheless an iconic fictional creation. I am of the opinion Bond doesn't need to be re-conceptualized. His gender, race, and sexual preferences don't need to be changed. If they are, what purpose is served? If source material is no longer important, then why not change every great character in literature for a film version? As for bringing Bond into the present, he is in the present. He always has been. While I liked Craig as Bond, especially CR, the story arc simply was not as enjoyable as the self-contained films. My hope for a reboot with a younger Bond is that we don't have to endure a burned out Bond filled with disillusion and dissatisfaction and ready to retire. We've seen enough of that. Vesper, Tracy, Madeleine, his daughter, and Blofeld should be years into Bond's future. Set him free of his demons.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,630
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I've missed the old trope of Bond meeting with station chiefs like Dikko Henderson, Kerim Bey etc. It meant that when we weren't getting an appearance from Felix we had another rather colourful character for Bond to bounce off on the mission who isn't the main Bond girl or the villain. Mathis was great but I think that was it in the Craig era, which makes sense I guess considering how much they decided to focus on the MI6 regulars from Skyfall.

    I agree. I did enjoy Kincade from Skyfall, though. He would be great for another Bond origin story. In literature at least.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    If they retaining the importance of Bond's background from the books, it should be May Maxwell or Charmian Bond, right?

    But why did they make him Kincaide?
    Why Bond's house had a name?
    Why they did this to the character?
  • Posts: 4,144
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    If they retaining the importance of Bond's background from the books, it should be May Maxwell or Charmian Bond, right?

    But why did they make him Kincaide?
    Why Bond's house had a name?
    Why they did this to the character?

    Because it worked for the story they were telling.

    And to be fair, it does work. Whether or not it’s what Fleming had in mind it makes sense that this Bond grew up on such a property and experienced the type of trauma that he did after his parent’s death. It’s using the background that Fleming established for Bond and creating something new. And in fairness a character like Kincade is more fitting than involving May or Charmain (remember, May is just a housekeeper later in Bond’s life, and Bond has no living relatives in his adult life, so Charmain would always be out of the picture. Someone like Kincade, a groundsman of his former house who is unrelated to him makes more sense.)
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited January 2023 Posts: 3,152
    At least he wasn't played by Connery in the end - can you imagine how that would've wreaked havoc? :-O
  • Posts: 1,988
    Where should Bond go after Craig? Watch the third season of the Jack Ryan series. Far more tense and interesting than NTTD.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    edited January 2023 Posts: 683
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Where should Bond go after Craig? Watch the third season of the Jack Ryan series. Far more tense and interesting than NTTD.

    I think given recent events, there's a good chance Russia will be involved in the plot of Bond 26 somehow. Perhaps they could use FRWL and TLD as inspiration.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Where should Bond go after Craig? Watch the third season of the Jack Ryan series. Far more tense and interesting than NTTD.

    I think given recent events, there's a good chance Russia will be involved in the plot of Bond 26 somehow. Perhaps they could use FRWL and TLD as inspiration.

    Or not at all. It might be too 'delicate' at the moment.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Where should Bond go after Craig? Watch the third season of the Jack Ryan series. Far more tense and interesting than NTTD.

    I think given recent events, there's a good chance Russia will be involved in the plot of Bond 26 somehow. Perhaps they could use FRWL and TLD as inspiration.

    Or not at all. It might be too 'delicate' at the moment.

    Agreed.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I've missed the old trope of Bond meeting with station chiefs like Dikko Henderson, Kerim Bey etc. It meant that when we weren't getting an appearance from Felix we had another rather colourful character for Bond to bounce off on the mission who isn't the main Bond girl or the villain. Mathis was great but I think that was it in the Craig era, which makes sense I guess considering how much they decided to focus on the MI6 regulars from Skyfall.

    I think the last sentence is really it. By NTTD, where they decided to go with both the MI6 regulars AND Felix, plus a new/rival/other 00 agent PLUS a local ally in Paloma, not to mention two villains, the film is just overstuffed.

    That's why, while I think it would be very fun to have big actors for M and Moneypenny, I think they should pare back those roles significantly. Same for Tanner and Q. I guess the thing is that they no longer want to do half an hour in London, ticking the various boxes before the plot gets going again, but they also want Judi Dench, Ralph Fiennes and everyone else to be in the film for more than 4 minutes, so suddenly M is on the headset handling mission control. There have to be other ways to do it.
    It's one of those many things where the execution in Skyfall was unique and great and then they took all the wrong lessons from it and it doesn't work nearly as well in SP and NTTD.
    One of the classic tightropes of serialized storytelling. By the end of NTTD you'd think there are about 7 people working at MI6. I kind of realized that in the current run of Dynamite Bond comics. Not to spoil too many things, but at one point, Bond talks to other 00s and at another he gets some intel from some random analyst. He doesn't team up with the 00s, it's just an exposition engine and that analyst isn't a major character or anything. It just makes sense for someone other than M, Moneypenny or Tanner to provide that tiny piece of information, so there's another person there for one page and it just makes the entire universe feel much more alive and populated. On the flipside, there's no Tanner, Boothroyd/Q or Felix in this story.

    Additionally, this ties into the thing many of us have been saying for a long time: Just do a one-off mission in one or two foreign locations.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 2023 Posts: 16,390
    CrabKey wrote: »
    While no one would (or should) consider Bond great literature, he is nonetheless an iconic fictional creation. I am of the opinion Bond doesn't need to be re-conceptualized. His gender, race, and sexual preferences don't need to be changed. If they are, what purpose is served? If source material is no longer important, then why not change every great character in literature for a film version?
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Where should Bond go after Craig? Watch the third season of the Jack Ryan series. Far more tense and interesting than NTTD.

    That’s not the Jack Ryan literary character though, is it? Gone is the everyman analyst, instead there’s a Bond-style super-assured special forces superspy. They even changed his name! But if you enjoyed that change to a literary character then you’ve answered your own question.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Yes, the Amazon series is great in its own right but it absolutely is not Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan despite what the title says.
  • Posts: 1,988
    mtm wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    While no one would (or should) consider Bond great literature, he is nonetheless an iconic fictional creation. I am of the opinion Bond doesn't need to be re-conceptualized. His gender, race, and sexual preferences don't need to be changed. If they are, what purpose is served? If source material is no longer important, then why not change every great character in literature for a film version?
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Where should Bond go after Craig? Watch the third season of the Jack Ryan series. Far more tense and interesting than NTTD.

    That’s not the Jack Ryan literary character though, is it? Gone is the everyman analyst, instead there’s a Bond-style super-assured special forces superspy. They even changed his name! But if you enjoyed that change to a literary character then you’ve answered your own question.

    I am speaking only of the series story as presented. It was tense and engaging, something I felt lacking in NTTD. I know how you delight in nitpicking and exposing apparent contradictions, but my remarks are about the story only, not how the series Ryan compares with the novels.
  • Just finished watching NTTD for umpteenth time and for the umpteenth time I keep getting something in my eye! This is why the likes of Mission Impossible can't get close to Bond. It takes more than clever stunts. I just cant fathom how Bond 26 can reach the heights of the Craig era but I have any faith in BB and MG whichever direction they head in. There are not many actors who are capable of succeeding Craig. Fassbender may have worked a few years ago but too old now.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 2023 Posts: 16,390
    CrabKey wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    While no one would (or should) consider Bond great literature, he is nonetheless an iconic fictional creation. I am of the opinion Bond doesn't need to be re-conceptualized. His gender, race, and sexual preferences don't need to be changed. If they are, what purpose is served? If source material is no longer important, then why not change every great character in literature for a film version?
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Where should Bond go after Craig? Watch the third season of the Jack Ryan series. Far more tense and interesting than NTTD.

    That’s not the Jack Ryan literary character though, is it? Gone is the everyman analyst, instead there’s a Bond-style super-assured special forces superspy. They even changed his name! But if you enjoyed that change to a literary character then you’ve answered your own question.

    I am speaking only of the series story as presented. It was tense and engaging, something I felt lacking in NTTD. I know how you delight in nitpicking and exposing apparent contradictions, but my remarks are about the story only, not how the series Ryan compares with the novels.

    If you enjoyed it that much, and the differences to the literary character didn't upset you, then there is your answer as to whether changing the details of Bond is really all that important or not. It's not an 'apparent contradiction', it's an answer to your own question.
    And you didn't single out Bond as being the only character which cannot be changed: you said "If source material is no longer important, then why not change every great character in literature for a film version?". Either you can enjoy something with a less-than-100%-faithful character adaptation or you can't. And it turns out that you can, so why worry about it? I'm sorry if you regard my paying attention to what you say as 'nitpicking', but if you ask a question then you should expect an answer.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited January 2023 Posts: 3,152
    mtm wrote: »
    Either you can enjoy something with a less-than-100%-faithful character adaptation or you can't. And it turns out that you can, so why worry about it?
    Can't argue with that. Other than a few purists, most Fleming fans must've reached exactly that conclusion after seeing Dr. No, I guess. Then Connery fans had to navigate their way through the post-Sean period in the '70s, CraigIsNotBond guys were presented with a similar dilemma, etc. It's been part of being a Bond fan for a long time and if you can go along with the changes, yep, why worry about it?
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited January 2023 Posts: 13,792
    There's the thing about adding to, but not taking away.

    In the case of NTTD, the story mainly occurs 5 years after Bond's retirement from being a double-O. So there's a separation from his successful tenure as an agent with MI6 and other successes.

    Events conspire to resolve Bond of the deadliest sin per Fleming: Accidie. To me that's cooked into his final victory smile. And it relates to his original CR experience with Le Chiffre during the torture: Bond's at a point where he knows he won against the enemy, it wasn't about his personal survival above all things after all.

    I don't expect another story where Bond dies, ever. Now the stage is set for many possibilities, and I'm thinking they'll continue to stay true to the character.

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  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited January 2023 Posts: 3,789
    There's no wrong with changes, I, for one who views the Film Bond and the Book Bond as separate, as long as they could pick and handle those changes right and properly.

    And as long as they're unique and not just lazily or recklessly done.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited January 2023 Posts: 5,970
    The changes are inevitable. As I've said before we're now gonna be getting a James Bond who was born in the 1980s or the 1990s. It's not gonna be as easy as it has been. This James Bond will have grown up through a post 9/11 world. For example, ATJ would have only been 10 at the time.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Denbigh wrote: »
    9/11... ATJ would have only been 10 at the time.
    Christ...
  • Posts: 16,163
    Venutius wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    9/11... ATJ would have only been 10 at the time.
    Christ...

    My sentiments exactly.
  • edited January 2023 Posts: 1,860
    Just finished watching NTTD for umpteenth time and for the umpteenth time I keep getting something in my eye! This is why the likes of Mission Impossible can't get close to Bond. It takes more than clever stunts. I just cant fathom how Bond 26 can reach the heights of the Craig era but I have any faith in BB and MG whichever direction they head in. There are not many actors who are capable of succeeding Craig. Fassbender may have worked a few years ago but too old now.

    I'm a Bond fan and I am not a big fan of the MI series but..........................the last couple of MI films have been much better conceived and executed films than the last few Craig films. In addition to that, I think "The Man from U.N.C.L.E.", which released against SPECTRE, was the better film as well. Looking forward to a new direction.
  • delfloria wrote: »
    Just finished watching NTTD for umpteenth time and for the umpteenth time I keep getting something in my eye! This is why the likes of Mission Impossible can't get close to Bond. It takes more than clever stunts. I just cant fathom how Bond 26 can reach the heights of the Craig era but I have any faith in BB and MG whichever direction they head in. There are not many actors who are capable of succeeding Craig. Fassbender may have worked a few years ago but too old now.

    I'm a Bond fan and I am not a big fan of the MI series but..........................the last couple of MI films have been much better conceived and executed films than the last few Craig films. In addition to that, I think "The Man from U.N.C.L.E.", which released against SPECTRE, was the better film as well. Looking forward to a new direction.

    Man from Uncle better than Spectre? Really?
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    What would your feelings be about a pretty straight up (espionage) war movie? Someone like Bond would have surely been active in Iraq, Syria and/or Lybia maybe even in places like Somalia and Mali where the UK military has been active in peacekeeping missions as well. I would also expect that there are MI6 officers in and around Ukraine at the moment. EON don't want to be too close to real history (or current goings on in the world), but that is a side of MI6 that hasn't really been explored in the Bond franchise.
    I don't mean this as a full on pitched-battle movie, but intelligence officers take part in these modern hybrid wars. It could be a banger to start off a new actors tenure. Plus, you can always do the typical Bond shuffle, were you situate the story in a nation-state conflict, but Bond's mission is slightly off to the side where he has to deal with some rogue General or business man or whatever who wants to use the conflict for their own good.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,575
    I want to see a Bond film like Where Eagles Dare. Obviously have the writers create a fictional Soviet/communist country for Bond (and 00 agent team) to infiltrate.
  • Posts: 1,860
    delfloria wrote: »
    Just finished watching NTTD for umpteenth time and for the umpteenth time I keep getting something in my eye! This is why the likes of Mission Impossible can't get close to Bond. It takes more than clever stunts. I just cant fathom how Bond 26 can reach the heights of the Craig era but I have any faith in BB and MG whichever direction they head in. There are not many actors who are capable of succeeding Craig. Fassbender may have worked a few years ago but too old now.

    I'm a Bond fan and I am not a big fan of the MI series but..........................the last couple of MI films have been much better conceived and executed films than the last few Craig films. In addition to that, I think "The Man from U.N.C.L.E.", which released against SPECTRE, was the better film as well. Looking forward to a new direction.

    Man from Uncle better than Spectre? Really?

    Yep, better chemistry between the actors/characters, more engaging plot, more creative music, action scenes more engrossing, handled the humor in scenes better, more stylish wardrobes, more attractive and interesting villain and a climax that used the heroes brains to outwit the villain. SPECTRE lost it's street creds when they introduced Bond and Blofeld as foster brothers and that Blofeld's goal was to simply torment his brother out of jealousy. Thank you Austin Powers.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,588
    delfloria wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    Just finished watching NTTD for umpteenth time and for the umpteenth time I keep getting something in my eye! This is why the likes of Mission Impossible can't get close to Bond. It takes more than clever stunts. I just cant fathom how Bond 26 can reach the heights of the Craig era but I have any faith in BB and MG whichever direction they head in. There are not many actors who are capable of succeeding Craig. Fassbender may have worked a few years ago but too old now.

    I'm a Bond fan and I am not a big fan of the MI series but..........................the last couple of MI films have been much better conceived and executed films than the last few Craig films. In addition to that, I think "The Man from U.N.C.L.E.", which released against SPECTRE, was the better film as well. Looking forward to a new direction.

    Man from Uncle better than Spectre? Really?

    Yep, better chemistry between the actors/characters, more engaging plot, more creative music, action scenes more engrossing, handled the humor in scenes better, more stylish wardrobes, more attractive and interesting villain and a climax that used the heroes brains to outwit the villain. SPECTRE lost it's street creds when they introduced Bond and Blofeld as foster brothers and that Blofeld's goal was to simply torment his brother out of jealousy. Thank you Austin Powers.

    I don't think that the writers went into the theory of "Let's copy Austin Powers" when developing the idea of Bond and Blofeld being foster brothers.
  • delfloria wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    Just finished watching NTTD for umpteenth time and for the umpteenth time I keep getting something in my eye! This is why the likes of Mission Impossible can't get close to Bond. It takes more than clever stunts. I just cant fathom how Bond 26 can reach the heights of the Craig era but I have any faith in BB and MG whichever direction they head in. There are not many actors who are capable of succeeding Craig. Fassbender may have worked a few years ago but too old now.

    I'm a Bond fan and I am not a big fan of the MI series but..........................the last couple of MI films have been much better conceived and executed films than the last few Craig films. In addition to that, I think "The Man from U.N.C.L.E.", which released against SPECTRE, was the better film as well. Looking forward to a new direction.

    Man from Uncle better than Spectre? Really?

    Yep, better chemistry between the actors/characters, more engaging plot, more creative music, action scenes more engrossing, handled the humor in scenes better, more stylish wardrobes, more attractive and interesting villain and a climax that used the heroes brains to outwit the villain. SPECTRE lost it's street creds when they introduced Bond and Blofeld as foster brothers and that Blofeld's goal was to simply torment his brother out of jealousy. Thank you Austin Powers.

    We will just have to agree to disagree there.
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