Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • Posts: 1,986
    At no point ever watching a Bond film have I ever said, "He's not smoking." I just don't miss it.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited April 2023 Posts: 3,789
    I also wish Bond would reduce his drinking too, I still not in my life how despite of him drinking too much and booze, he's not getting drunk 🤷, like drowsiness, and could still drive in normal state 😅 (I'm talking more about the Craig Era here in particular).

    Try looking at this:
    Licensed to spill! Daniel Craig is booziest James Bond ever who knocks back 20 units of alcohol per movie
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3243718/amp/Licensed-spill-Daniel-Craig-booziest-James-Bond-knocks-20-units-alcohol-movie.html

    If they're making Bond more realistic, reduce his drinking, it's fine in necessary occasions, and also not too much to the point that he already drank a bottle and could still function properly.

    That's also one of the unrealistic things about the Craig Era.

    I think Moore did this better by just having drink in necessary occasions like when in dinner or meeting with a girl, or at the end of the film, but when he's in the middle of adventure, he's not drinking too much, despite of Moore being campy, and lighthearted, he's not that much on booze.

    I mean the classic Bonds in general were never that much on booze like Craig, they didn't drank liquor like fish, and that's one of the things I prefer in the Classic Era, the Craig Era turned Bond into an overly alcoholic guy.

    The Cuba scenes in No Time To Die had him drinking a liquor constantly while fighting a baddie, and asking myself that he could still function and fight, he drank a lot in that Cuba sequence, the same with Paloma, it's just unrealistic that despite of how many shots they've taken, they could still function normally.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I would be fine with Bond smoking a cig if it were a period piece. Of course, even today a period piece would put a lot of emphasis on how bad smoking is by having Bond constantly coughing or having someone admonish him for that habit. There’s no way they would depict Bond smoking as something of an aspirational image. That moment when Connery says his name in DN would never happen with a cigarette today, period piece or not.

    It reminds me of how the very first episode of MAD MEN jumped right onto how the tobacco industry had finally reached a point where advertising has to acknowledge the facts that smoking causes lung cancer. The tobacco execs are still in denial over it, cue wry comical scene where everyone in the meeting room begins coughing.

    “Might as well be living in Russia”

  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I say this as a non-smoker, but I feel that Bond should smoke. It's both part of his devil may care attitude, and a release of his built up tension.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    edited April 2023 Posts: 682
    I would be fine with Bond smoking a cig if it were a period piece. Of course, even today a period piece would put a lot of emphasis on how bad smoking is by having Bond constantly coughing or having someone admonish him for that habit. There’s no way they would depict Bond smoking as something of an aspirational image. That moment when Connery says his name in DN would never happen with a cigarette today, period piece or not.

    It reminds me of how the very first episode of MAD MEN jumped right onto how the tobacco industry had finally reached a point where advertising has to acknowledge the facts that smoking causes lung cancer. The tobacco execs are still in denial over it, cue wry comical scene where everyone in the meeting room begins coughing.

    “Might as well be living in Russia”


    That's true, but I'd argue the show still glamorised (intentionally or unintentionally) cigarettes in much the same way the Bond films used to. This clip is a good example:


    Not just with Don either:
  • Posts: 2,161
    I say this as a non-smoker, but I feel that Bond should smoke. It's both part of his devil may care attitude, and a release of his built up tension.

    I completely agree, and I would like to see the cinematic Bond rise to Fleming levels of alcohol consumption.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    I'd be all for both of those.
  • Posts: 12,466
    The smoking, drinking, and womanizing are all parts of Bond I feel add to what he's supposed to be about. Sure, many frown upon these things, but isn't that the whole point? Bond's an antihero. And it feels like the producers are pushing him closer and closer to being a conventional hero, which is something I don't want to want to see continue. Living every day like it's the last / hedonism is part of what makes the novels so damn interesting. In starting to reread the novels again, it sticks out to me how much closer Connery and Lazenby were in several respects.

    I guess the real issue is that Bond so largely contrasts modern values. He really does work best in the era he was created in and near after. This is why I personally wouldn't mind going with a period piece approach after Craig.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited April 2023 Posts: 8,183
    I would be fine with Bond smoking a cig if it were a period piece. Of course, even today a period piece would put a lot of emphasis on how bad smoking is by having Bond constantly coughing or having someone admonish him for that habit. There’s no way they would depict Bond smoking as something of an aspirational image. That moment when Connery says his name in DN would never happen with a cigarette today, period piece or not.

    It reminds me of how the very first episode of MAD MEN jumped right onto how the tobacco industry had finally reached a point where advertising has to acknowledge the facts that smoking causes lung cancer. The tobacco execs are still in denial over it, cue wry comical scene where everyone in the meeting room begins coughing.

    “Might as well be living in Russia”


    That's true, but I'd argue the show still glamorised (intentionally or unintentionally) cigarettes in much the same way the Bond films used to. This clip is a good example:


    Not just with Don either:



    Can’t remember the context of that first clip, but on its own it definitely feels like an advert you see on TV.

    The second one I remember well cause it’s supposed to be ironic, showing how she changed from the start of the show and became as cutthroat as the men she worked for (as well as inheriting that hentai painting from one of her old bosses).
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    FoxRox wrote: »
    The smoking, drinking, and womanizing are all parts of Bond I feel add to what he's supposed to be about. Sure, many frown upon these things, but isn't that the whole point? Bond's an antihero. And it feels like the producers are pushing him closer and closer to being a conventional hero, which is something I don't want to want to see continue. Living every day like it's the last / hedonism is part of what makes the novels so damn interesting. In starting to reread the novels again, it sticks out to me how much closer Connery and Lazenby were in several respects.

    I guess the real issue is that Bond so largely contrasts modern values. He really does work best in the era he was created in and near after. This is why I personally wouldn't mind going with a period piece approach after Craig.

    I think the issue is that smoking cigs has a lot more negative connotations than womanizing and drinking. There’s lots of people who simply look at that and think “wow you’re an idiot”, rather than acknowledge it as just another vice.

    Here’s a thought: Would having Bond smoke cannabis work as a substitute for cigarettes in the 21st century? At least in the US, it’s becoming more legalized and normalized. You still can’t puff away anywhere cause of so many designated non-smoking, but at this point it’s far less stigmatized than cigs.
  • edited April 2023 Posts: 12,466
    FoxRox wrote: »
    The smoking, drinking, and womanizing are all parts of Bond I feel add to what he's supposed to be about. Sure, many frown upon these things, but isn't that the whole point? Bond's an antihero. And it feels like the producers are pushing him closer and closer to being a conventional hero, which is something I don't want to want to see continue. Living every day like it's the last / hedonism is part of what makes the novels so damn interesting. In starting to reread the novels again, it sticks out to me how much closer Connery and Lazenby were in several respects.

    I guess the real issue is that Bond so largely contrasts modern values. He really does work best in the era he was created in and near after. This is why I personally wouldn't mind going with a period piece approach after Craig.

    I think the issue is that smoking cigs has a lot more negative connotations than womanizing and drinking. There’s lots of people who simply look at that and think “wow you’re an idiot”, rather than acknowledge it as just another vice.

    Here’s a thought: Would having Bond smoke cannabis work as a substitute for cigarettes in the 21st century? At least in the US, it’s becoming more legalized and normalized. You still can’t puff away anywhere cause of so many designated non-smoking, but at this point it’s far less stigmatized than cigs.

    While I'm against smoking cigarettes, I try not to be judgmental about others doing it. For many it's an addiction, and I have my own addiction issues with other things, so who am I to judge. In real life I certainly wish more people thought about wanting smokers to quit and help themselves rather than insult them and brush them aside. I've known several smokers who are amazing people, so I get a little upset to see others casually think of them as "weak" or other negative things. But at any rate, this is about a fictional character sticking to a trait he's been known for. Assuming the period piece approach doesn't happen - and I don't think it will realistically - cannabis isn't a bad idea. It would especially make sense for Bond to want to calm down after all the crazy violence he gets wrapped up in.
  • timdalton007timdalton007 North Alabama
    Posts: 155
    CrabKey wrote: »
    At no point ever watching a Bond film have I ever said, "He's not smoking." I just don't miss it.

    That’s my feeling, as well. True, it was there in the beginning (to the point it’s briefly in the 2005 FRWL game) but even as early as DAF (though Tiffany Case has at least one in it) it was being phased out. I wouldn’t mind seeing the occasional cigar (I enjoy the occasional one myself), but that’s the extent of it I’d want to see.
    Here’s a thought: Would having Bond smoke cannabis work as a substitute for cigarettes in the 21st century? At least in the US, it’s becoming more legalized and normalized. You still can’t puff away anywhere cause of so many designated non-smoking, but at this point it’s far less stigmatized than cigs.

    Maybe it’s my being in Alabama and watching the ongoing debates in and out of the state legislature over how much it can/should be legalized, but I can’t imagine it going down well. Not to mention Bond being “under the influence” in more ways than one!
  • edited April 2023 Posts: 2,266
    Can’t imagine Bond would start smoking Cannabis myself. It’s true that there is far less stigma surrounding Cannabis than Cigarettes, but I just get the impression people would just resort to calling the new Bond a “stoner”, and I can’t imagine EON would like that.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2023 Posts: 16,383
    FoxRox wrote: »
    The smoking, drinking, and womanizing are all parts of Bond I feel add to what he's supposed to be about. Sure, many frown upon these things, but isn't that the whole point? Bond's an antihero. And it feels like the producers are pushing him closer and closer to being a conventional hero, which is something I don't want to want to see continue. Living every day like it's the last / hedonism is part of what makes the novels so damn interesting. In starting to reread the novels again, it sticks out to me how much closer Connery and Lazenby were in several respects.

    I guess the real issue is that Bond so largely contrasts modern values. He really does work best in the era he was created in and near after. This is why I personally wouldn't mind going with a period piece approach after Craig.

    I think the issue is that smoking cigs has a lot more negative connotations than womanizing and drinking. There’s lots of people who simply look at that and think “wow you’re an idiot”, rather than acknowledge it as just another vice.

    Yeah it makes him look a bit stupid and weak nowadays. It doesn't really fit with his character. Yes, he drinks; but alcohol just isn't seen the same. It's not locked behind a door in the newsagents' with photos of ruined bodyparts on the packaging.
    And even then it's contextual: a glass of whisky or bourbon can look cool. If you have to have a glass when you're in a limo speeding to the airport (as with M in TND) it looks a bit desperate and has the whiff of addiction.

    Even in period things you don't see it as much. Napoleon Solo wasn't puffing away in the Man from UNCLE film.
    Here’s a thought: Would having Bond smoke cannabis work as a substitute for cigarettes in the 21st century? At least in the US, it’s becoming more legalized and normalized. You still can’t puff away anywhere cause of so many designated non-smoking, but at this point it’s far less stigmatized than cigs.

    Interesting thought, but a bit too counter-culture for Bond I think. He's the guy in the suit.
    FoxRox wrote: »

    While I'm against smoking cigarettes, I try not to be judgmental about others doing it. For many it's an addiction, and I have my own addiction issues with other things, so who am I to judge. In real life I certainly wish more people thought about wanting smokers to quit and help themselves rather than insult them and brush them aside. I've known several smokers who are amazing people, so I get a little upset to see others casually think of them as "weak" or other negative things.

    Well that's just how movies and TV work: they use shorthand for us to make judgements about the characters. He's not a real person and it's not real life, so it's not 'being judgemental about others', and everything the producers of fiction give us about a character is designed to paint a picture of them for us. Making Bond a cigarette smoker again would undermine everything else about his character we're being told, I think.
    Sorry to hear about your issues by the way, I hope you're doing well with them.
    CrabKey wrote: »
    At no point ever watching a Bond film have I ever said, "He's not smoking." I just don't miss it.

    That’s my feeling, as well. True, it was there in the beginning (to the point it’s briefly in the 2005 FRWL game) but even as early as DAF (though Tiffany Case has at least one in it) it was being phased out. I wouldn’t mind seeing the occasional cigar (I enjoy the occasional one myself), but that’s the extent of it I’d want to see.

    That's a good point; he doesn't light up in DAF, does he? I certainly never missed it. I can't actually remember him doing it in Thunderball off the top of my head...?

    I'm just not sure what it would add that would outweigh any issues of him potentially looking desperate and hooked on something.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    If Bond drank as much as Fleming wrote “in real life”, most people would be vomiting from alcohol poisoning, 😂. Sometimes when reading the books, and imagining the amount of booze this man drinks, I get a nice little hangover myself!
  • timdalton007timdalton007 North Alabama
    Posts: 155
    Can’t imagine Bond would start smoking Cannabis myself. It’s true that there is far less stigma surrounding Cannabis than Cigarettes, but I just get the impression people would just resort to calling the new Bond a “stoner”, and I can’t imagine EON would like that.

    Those Daily Mail, GB News, and Fox News headlines would write themselves, wouldn’t they?
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    That's a good point; he doesn't light up in DAF, does he? I certainly never missed it. I can't actually remember him doing it in Thunderball off the top of my head...?

    If memory serves me: Sean smoked in DN, FRWL and YOLT (?)
  • Can’t imagine Bond would start smoking Cannabis myself. It’s true that there is far less stigma surrounding Cannabis than Cigarettes, but I just get the impression people would just resort to calling the new Bond a “stoner”, and I can’t imagine EON would like that.

    Those Daily Mail, GB News, and Fox News headlines would write themselves, wouldn’t they?

    “00-Burnout; New James Bond a pot smoking Millennial”

    I can easily picture that headline.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    peter wrote: »
    That's a good point; he doesn't light up in DAF, does he? I certainly never missed it. I can't actually remember him doing it in Thunderball off the top of my head...?

    If memory serves me: Sean smoked in DN, FRWL and YOLT (?)

    He has the rocket-propelled cigarette in YOLT, yes.
    So if he managed without it for twenty films, maybe he doesn't really need it.
  • Posts: 12,466
    I doubt it'll happen. Frankly I thought his Blade Runner sequel was fantastic, though, and if he could be as faithful to the world of James Bond as that then it would be a real treat.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    That's a good point; he doesn't light up in DAF, does he? I certainly never missed it. I can't actually remember him doing it in Thunderball off the top of my head...?

    If memory serves me: Sean smoked in DN, FRWL and YOLT (?)

    He has the rocket-propelled cigarette in YOLT, yes.
    So if he managed without it for twenty films, maybe he doesn't really need it.

    @mtm … in Osato’s office as well (Mr Osato believes in a healthy chest)
  • edited April 2023 Posts: 16,162
    I think Bond should smoke 60 cigarettes per day, eat scrambled eggs, drink astonishing amounts of alcohol, yet still keep a clear head.
    Bond doesn't vape, nor does he smoke "light" cigarettes, nor does he smoke weed, and he certainly does not eat egg white substitutes.
  • Posts: 4,139
    FoxRox wrote: »
    The smoking, drinking, and womanizing are all parts of Bond I feel add to what he's supposed to be about. Sure, many frown upon these things, but isn't that the whole point? Bond's an antihero. And it feels like the producers are pushing him closer and closer to being a conventional hero, which is something I don't want to want to see continue. Living every day like it's the last / hedonism is part of what makes the novels so damn interesting. In starting to reread the novels again, it sticks out to me how much closer Connery and Lazenby were in several respects.

    I guess the real issue is that Bond so largely contrasts modern values. He really does work best in the era he was created in and near after. This is why I personally wouldn't mind going with a period piece approach after Craig.

    I think the issue is that smoking cigs has a lot more negative connotations than womanizing and drinking. There’s lots of people who simply look at that and think “wow you’re an idiot”, rather than acknowledge it as just another vice.

    Here’s a thought: Would having Bond smoke cannabis work as a substitute for cigarettes in the 21st century? At least in the US, it’s becoming more legalized and normalized. You still can’t puff away anywhere cause of so many designated non-smoking, but at this point it’s far less stigmatized than cigs.

    Interesting. Well, it's worth saying that it's not currently legal in the UK, so there's that aspect to consider.

    Generally though, I'd say no to Bond using recreational narcotics whether it's weed or cocaine. It just doesn't seem to fit the character using these for enjoyment. Even Bond's benzedrine use in the books was for the purposes of stimulating him physically in order to do a job, not for his enjoyment. I'd be fine if such an idea was used for the films (perhaps not a specific mentioned drug, but some sort of stimulant Bond has to use in order to push himself).
  • Posts: 1,859
    mtm wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    The smoking, drinking, and womanizing are all parts of Bond I feel add to what he's supposed to be about. Sure, many frown upon these things, but isn't that the whole point? Bond's an antihero. And it feels like the producers are pushing him closer and closer to being a conventional hero, which is something I don't want to want to see continue. Living every day like it's the last / hedonism is part of what makes the novels so damn interesting. In starting to reread the novels again, it sticks out to me how much closer Connery and Lazenby were in several respects.

    I guess the real issue is that Bond so largely contrasts modern values. He really does work best in the era he was created in and near after. This is why I personally wouldn't mind going with a period piece approach after Craig.

    I think the issue is that smoking cigs has a lot more negative connotations than womanizing and drinking. There’s lots of people who simply look at that and think “wow you’re an idiot”, rather than acknowledge it as just another vice.

    Yeah it makes him look a bit stupid and weak nowadays. It doesn't really fit with his character. Yes, he drinks; but alcohol just isn't seen the same. It's not locked behind a door in the newsagents' with photos of ruined bodyparts on the packaging.
    And even then it's contextual: a glass of whisky or bourbon can look cool. If you have to have a glass when you're in a limo speeding to the airport (as with M in TND) it looks a bit desperate and has the whiff of addiction.

    Even in period things you don't see it as much. Napoleon Solo wasn't puffing away in the Man from UNCLE film.
    Here’s a thought: Would having Bond smoke cannabis work as a substitute for cigarettes in the 21st century? At least in the US, it’s becoming more legalized and normalized. You still can’t puff away anywhere cause of so many designated non-smoking, but at this point it’s far less stigmatized than cigs.

    Interesting thought, but a bit too counter-culture for Bond I think. He's the guy in the suit.
    FoxRox wrote: »

    While I'm against smoking cigarettes, I try not to be judgmental about others doing it. For many it's an addiction, and I have my own addiction issues with other things, so who am I to judge. In real life I certainly wish more people thought about wanting smokers to quit and help themselves rather than insult them and brush them aside. I've known several smokers who are amazing people, so I get a little upset to see others casually think of them as "weak" or other negative things.

    Well that's just how movies and TV work: they use shorthand for us to make judgements about the characters. He's not a real person and it's not real life, so it's not 'being judgemental about others', and everything the producers of fiction give us about a character is designed to paint a picture of them for us. Making Bond a cigarette smoker again would undermine everything else about his character we're being told, I think.
    Sorry to hear about your issues by the way, I hope you're doing well with them.
    CrabKey wrote: »
    At no point ever watching a Bond film have I ever said, "He's not smoking." I just don't miss it.

    That’s my feeling, as well. True, it was there in the beginning (to the point it’s briefly in the 2005 FRWL game) but even as early as DAF (though Tiffany Case has at least one in it) it was being phased out. I wouldn’t mind seeing the occasional cigar (I enjoy the occasional one myself), but that’s the extent of it I’d want to see.

    That's a good point; he doesn't light up in DAF, does he? I certainly never missed it. I can't actually remember him doing it in Thunderball off the top of my head...?

    I'm just not sure what it would add that would outweigh any issues of him potentially looking desperate and hooked on something.

    BTW, Smoking was never a part of Napoleon Solo's character, either in the original series or movie. They may have hidden their communicators inside a cigarette pack but you would never find Solo or Illya casually lighting up. That's Bond territory.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Lots of people smoked in the 60s. But films set in period (depending on genre) most probably won’t. The new Indiana Jones film is set in 1969 but I’ll be surprised if there are any cigarettes in it.
  • Posts: 939
    NHL players smoked all day in the 70s and 80s, but it does affect your lung usage. How about Bond only drinks Prime.

    He could have a cigarette pack as a gadget. A bit like the restroom scene in True Lies.
  • Posts: 1,986
    Smoking doesn't make Bond look weak and stupid. Smoking simply seems out of place now, sort of along the lines of earlier Bonds taking baths instead of showers.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    NHL players smoked all day in the 70s and 80s, but it does affect your lung usage. How about Bond only drinks Prime.

    He could have a cigarette pack as a gadget. A bit like the restroom scene in True Lies.

    Yeah, and NHL players of the 70s wouldn’t last 60 seconds against the NHL’ers of today. James Bond of today, wouldn’t smoke for this reason too…
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited April 2023 Posts: 3,789
    peter wrote: »
    If Bond drank as much as Fleming wrote “in real life”, most people would be vomiting from alcohol poisoning, 😂. Sometimes when reading the books, and imagining the amount of booze this man drinks, I get a nice little hangover myself!

    Indeed, booze is also not that far off from smoking too, it's still a vice.

    And like what I've said in the other thread, booze these days are a symbol of low class and criminality.

    If you're a heavy drinker, people would have thought you as a low class person in the society who's making troubles.

    Watching modern films these days, that's how they depict heavy drinking, when you're in a bar, gets in too rumble, riot and fights, of course, as a gang, it became a sign of low class, criminal thing.

    Being part of a gangster thing might be the exact word to describe the alcoholism these days.

    And for a character like Bond, it's indeed no longer fit too.

    It's no longer a sign of sophistication.

    I think that's also one of the reasons why I think Craig's Bond also lacked sophistication, he comes off more as a low class bad boy than a sophisticated, connoisseur spy guy (the book Bond is a lot more sophisticated as I've read it).

    Booze these days is a sign of being brutal, desperate, and being a low class gangster in the society.
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