Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    edited July 2023 Posts: 685
    Univex wrote: »
    Does anyone else hates it when people compare Bond to spy stuff like Ghosted, Gray Man, Citadel, Fubar, ... And even to M:I. I mean, Bond is supposed to be a spy thriller, not an action-americanised-spy-stravaganza-kim-possible-spy kids-tactical gear-true lies-Kingsman kind of nonsense. It's meant to be a stylish affair like no other. I do understand the need to put it all in the same bag, as it were, but it irks me to no end. And I do agree with you, @mtm, space between those things and Bond is a good thing. Take your time, EON, just make it count.

    Personally, and I know this goes against the grain with some fans, I prefer my Bond to be closer to Tinker Tailor than to Soldier Spy, if you catch my drift.

    It did amuse me seeing an article where Ryan Gosling described his Gray Man character as a "blue collar Bond". In other words, every other generic American action hero from the past 40-years?
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    I agree with you @Univex I also hate it, for me, it quite cheapens the character.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2023 Posts: 16,414
    Patience is a virtue sure, and fan entitlement can be frustrating, but EON is a business first and foremost. To suggest they owe fans nothing is a bit inaccurate because at the end of the day, this franchise has gone strong for 60 years due to its fans, while the argument could be made that other franchises have fizzled out due to heavy fan backlash.

    In a business though, transactions are the name of the game. And that’s how it works here: we pay and they sell us something. I don’t feel I’m owed more than I paid for.
    I’m sure they’re very appreciative of all the love the series engenders, but I hope they don’t feel they owe anything: they built the series themselves and we love it because of their effort and talent. I’m not doing anyone a favour by enjoying something that’s good. I like it for me! :)
    Also I’m not sure it is the fans that built its success: I don’t think the fanbase is very big compared to the number of people who watch these things. They’re a real mass market appeal, not for the fans.
  • mtm wrote: »
    Patience is a virtue sure, and fan entitlement can be frustrating, but EON is a business first and foremost. To suggest they owe fans nothing is a bit inaccurate because at the end of the day, this franchise has gone strong for 60 years due to its fans, while the argument could be made that other franchises have fizzled out due to heavy fan backlash.

    In a business though, transactions are the name of the game. And that’s how it works here: we pay and they sell us something. I don’t feel I’m owed more than I paid for.
    I’m sure they’re very appreciative of all the love the series engenders, but I hope they don’t feel they owe anything: they built the series themselves and we love it because of their effort and talent. I’m not doing anyone a favour by enjoying something that’s good. I like it for me! :)
    Also I’m not sure it is the fans that built its success: I don’t think the fanbase is very big compared to the number of people who watch these things. They’re a real mass market appeal, not for the fans.

    I partly agree with you on that. Once we pay for a product, we make the decision ourselves to invest in whatever it may be, so it’s not EON’s problem if we don’t like it. But at the end of the day, I just highly doubt EON intentionally disregards their fans with the “we don’t owe you anything” mentality. I always think of what Cubby Broccoli said; “We have an audience asking us, begging us, to make another Bond picture” and he always delivered, and the same is true for Barbara Broccoli. I’m sure they are well aware of what the fans want; I wouldn’t be surprised if someone who worked for EON is scrolling on this very forum right now. I pointed out the Goldeneye 64 re-release earlier as an example, that wouldn’t have happened without a push from the fan community I’d imagine.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,414
    Sure, they're appreciative as I say, and they want to keep selling us stuff too! :)
    But equally that means they won't necessarily pander to fans; see dumping Pierce or killing Bond- they'll do what they think is right.
  • mtm wrote: »
    Sure, they're appreciative as I say, and they want to keep selling us stuff too! :)
    But equally that means they won't necessarily pander to fans; see dumping Pierce or killing Bond- they'll do what they think is right.

    Nor should they pander to fans!
  • Posts: 1,993
    In the grand scheme of things, one's impatience for the next Bond film doesn't mean a thing. It is an expression of a desire. Some would like to see a Bond film every two years. It's that simple. Not whining. Not privilege because one is an original Bond fan, or that they feel they are owed something. No mummy lectures about the virtue of patience needed.
  • Posts: 6,709
    CrabKey wrote: »
    In the grand scheme of things, one's impatience for the next Bond film doesn't mean a thing. It is an expression of a desire. Some would like to see a Bond film every two years. It's that simple. Not whining. Not privilege because one is an original Bond fan, or that they feel they are owed something. No mummy lectures about the virtue of patience needed.

    Exactly. Besides, these are forums, they are somewhat meant for expressing this sort of feelings. No mummy lectures needed, I quite agree.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I will posit there's a huge chasm between expressing a desire, and being a repetitive brat about any subject, including when the next Bond will be released...

  • Posts: 6,709
    peter wrote: »
    I will posit there's a huge chasm between expressing a desire, and being a repetitive brat about any subject, including when the next Bond will be released...
    Of course. We do know repetition is weaponised by the dumb.
  • Posts: 1,993
    Having made my share of repetitive comments, I don't know if I've risen to the level of brat. Others can decide, although I don't believe that comment was directed to me. In terms of repetition, repetition is in the DNA of this site.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    No, not directed at you, @CrabKey ... But I think we know the difference between someone repeating thoughts and conversations, and those being little brats... It's like pornography and art: it's difficult to describe, but I know it when I see it, or in this case, read it...
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited June 2023 Posts: 8,400
    I just think it's crazy how franchises like Mission Impossible and JOHN WICK continue to eat bonds lunch year after year, and EON seem perfectly happy to watch their numbers decline while MI and JW keep outdoing themselves and receive overwhelming praise from audiences. 4 months ago we didn't even know Superman Legacy existed as a project, now with have a title, release date and both lead actors cast already. Christopher Nolan and his wife have been producing a new big scale film from scratch every 3 years for the past 2 decades, and Oppenhiemer seems to be another smash hit that will enrapture audiences and make 500+ million at the boxoffice. Everyone is active, doing their best work, and then there's EON only releasing 1 film in the past 8 years and apparently no ideas on where to taking things next, despite the fact that all principal photography on bond 25 finished in 2019. And you're telling me that no ones had a single thought about whether they want a lighter bond next time around in the past 4 years? Even without an official writer, EON at the bare minimum should have some kind of plan by now. But instead we bond fans watch as Tom Cruise, Keanu Reeves and Christopher Nolan soak up the limelight and recieve stunning praise from critics and enjoy vast grosses at boxoffice, all while our man bond the original and oldest spy franchise languishes in the shadows. Its pretty pathetic at this stage.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    I just think it's crazy how franchises like Mission Impossible and JOHN WICK continue to eat bonds lunch year after year, and EON seem perfectly happy to watch their numbers decline while MI and JW keep outdoing themselves and receive overwhelming praise from audiences. 4 months ago we didn't even know Superman Legacy existed as a project, now with have a title, release date and both lead actors cast already. Christopher Nolan and his wife have been producing a new big scale film from scratch every 3 years for the past 2 decades, and Oppenhiemer seems to be another smash hit that will enrapture audiences and make 500+ million at the boxoffice. Everyone is active, doing their best work, and then there's EON only releasing 1 film in the past 8 years and apparently no ideas on where to taking things next, despite the fact that all principal photography on bond 25 finished in 2019. And you're telling me that no ones had a single thought about whether they want a lighter bond next time around in the past 4 years? Even without an official writer, EON at the bare minimum should have some kind of plan by now. But instead we bond fans watch as Tom Cruise, Keanu Reeves and Christopher Nolan soak up the limelight and recieve stunning praise from critics and enjoy vast grosses at boxoffice, all while our man bond the original and oldest spy franchise languishes in the shadows. Its pretty pathetic at this stage.

    The last Bond film outgrossed the last projects from two of the three names mentioned there by quite a considerable margin, so it's not exactly languishing in the shadows.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Keep clutching those pearls, Mendes4Lyfe.
  • Posts: 944
    MI is a family film. JW is a gangster film. JB is a biopic. We're just setting the stage, please wait longer.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,414
    I can’t get on with the John Wicks. It’s a point though, I presume casting is all they can do on Superman thanks to the strike.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited June 2023 Posts: 8,400
    The socail media driven landscape has lead to the rise of the "fanboy" mentality among online communities. We see people split along battlelines between PlayStation and Xbox, Marvel versus DC, and fiercely loyal to their own choosen brand. Ofcourse I have my franchise of choice, and I will always be a Bond fan first because of the legacy, and the character that Ian Fleming created and Cubby and Harry brought to screen, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to ignore reality and fight EON's corner no matter what. If other franchises are doing it better, I'm going to sit up and pay attention and ask questions, not try to ignore it or make excuses. The fact is that bond built its reputation on being the best. Bond is the ideal the benchmark that other franchises mark themselves against, the gold standard. But based on the last 10 years I find it almost impossible to make a case for that still holding true. The competition has simply outdone bond and there's no way I can sugar-coat or gloss over that fact. I remember years ago, around the time skyfall came out people were saying "well the gaps are longer nowadays, but at least it's not as bad as the MI films, they only had 4 films in 16 years!" People would always make jokes about how uneven the MI series was, and how sporadically they were released. Nowadays I don't see people making those jokes because since then each new film keeps getting better and works harder to provide the kind of jawdropping awe and spectacle that bond used to be known far. Besides that, JOHN WICK was created and lead to 4 no holds barred action extravaganzas with spinoffs still to come. The point being Bond really isn't the big dog anymore in the action space, they haven't been for a while, and it doesn't really gain us anything to pretend otherwise. Bond 26 really does carry a heavy burden on its back, because its finally time to acknowledge that can they've been kicking down the road for the past few films, while they "finish their "emotional character arc". They need to show that bond really can be compete, and reclaim the "nobody does it better" status back, no fears, limits or subtitutes.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,414
    Yes they’ll have to make another film; I’m sure they’ll do it. The strike has to be out of the way first though.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @Mendes4Lyfe ... You posted a day ago that fans should have more patience... In the end, yes, Bond has more competition than at any other time in the history of the series...

    But this competition has been escalating, and, especially in the late 80s, 007 and EoN almost buckled under the weight of the new action films starring Batman or Indy or Riggs and Murtaugh or McClane or anything Arnold and Sly did.

    The only difference: back then it was the media saying Bond is failing.

    Now it's fans like you (after EoN has delivered arguably the most critically acclaimed and financially successful era since Connery... )... Like I said yesterday: I know it when I read it....
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited June 2023 Posts: 8,400
    peter wrote: »
    But this competition has been escalating, and, especially in the late 80s, 007 and EoN almost buckled under the weight of the new action films starring Batman or Indy or Riggs and Murtaugh or McClane or anything Arnold and Sly did.

    @peter You seem to be under the impression that we're arguing from different perspectives but to my eyes we're very much on the same page. You draw a parallel between today and bond of the eighties, and I quite agree - it does feel like we're back in that space, bond being sidelined as merely one player in a crowded ring of star power and burgeoning IP.

    The 70's Moore glow had worn off and the series kinda just coasted for a while. Things were definitely getting stale with A View To A Kill, and also License To Kill, which is why they had to be brought roaring back into life with Goldeneye and Martin Campbell.

    The point is its fine to admit we're in a low point, but we shouldn't be pleased about it. We should be looking for that horizon, when the next vision arrives and sets things right again. It's fine to accept where we are, and point out the fact that serious changes need to be made and EON need to pull their finger out. When the bourne films started coming out, EON took notice. When Christopher Nolan revolutionised superhero movies with the dark knight trilogy, EON took notice. Its about time EON took notice of the latest generation of juggernaut action blockbusters and muster a response that actually goes toe to toe with them.

    Bond is being beaten out by the competition, just like you say, and that also was the case in the 80's - I agree. But that's not where we should want to be as fans, especially as bond basically invented the genre to begin with. I've said it before, but Bond 26 needs to be a film that proves the point that bond is still the top dog, just like The Spy Who Loved Me and Goldeneye. It HAS to embrace that core bond essence that people have been missing, it has to have that old-school swagger that people still think of when they think of Bond.

    I am a fan of MI and JOHN WICK but nothing would make me happier than for Bond 26 to completely embarass them and make them look like child's play, just like they have made bond look for audiences in recent years. Every bond leaves an impact which is felt through the generations that come after, you can't turn back the clock, but they have to escape this narrative cul de sac they've hemmed themselves into by approaching every film as a deep exploration of Bonds psyche and innermost thoughts. There's so much space to explore for Bond on the big screen which don't have anything to do with that. You can have playful, vibrant films which don't involve bond cradeling a loved one dying in his arms even once. This is why I quietly champion Edgar Wright for being the ideal choiceto direct, because his films are extremely irreverent, and often times downright silly, and yet simon peggs character in hot fuzz is still a fully believable character with depth and flaws, which he overcomes through the course of the film. But they need to hire proper action/big scale directors and not last years oscar nominees. My worry is that instead to fighting back against the contenders, EON will simply concede the ground of action spectacle to the MI and JOHN WICK series and continue down the path of making films catering more to leftwing journos and art critics than general audiences, and the boxoffice figures will continue to fade as people simply plump for the alternatives.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    What low point are you talking about @Mendes4Lyfe ? I’m certainly not comparing where Bond was in the late 80s and where they are today. You may be, I’m not.

    I merely stated competition has been escalating, especially since the late 80s. However Mendes, unlike the 80s Bond, today 007 has survived all of those heroes of the past, plus beat Bourne, and is remarkably competitive in the present day market!!

    You may not have liked the Craig films, but there’s no denying that EoN delivered its most consistently acclaimed era (financially AND critically), since Connery.

    How are we in a low-time for Bond?

    Once again, read articles and posts more than once…
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,138
    From my opinion, Bond is the most exclusive and unique character in the movies today.
    Yes we have longer breaks between films, and we have to put up with a re-invention of the character with each actor too take on the iconic role.
    But unlike any other franchise, Bond is a standalone. He doesn't have to conform to the Disney way of doing things like Star Wars or Indiana Jones, he's not stuck in a series like Mission Impossible (which I love and respect) that relies on Tom Cruise, and has no future without his ability to wow with insane stuntwork.
    When we get a new Bond film, it's an event movie. It makes people excited, and not just us Bond fans. EON are still the only production company that control the majority of what they produce. Would I like to see a Bond film every other year like we had in the past. Of course I would.
    Am I content to have EON in charge of the series? Yes, yes I am.
  • edited June 2023 Posts: 6,709
    My feelings exactly, @Benny
    Well said
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    Exactly, @Benny
  • Posts: 7,430
    Bravo, @Benny. Exactly, there is no other character like Bond, never has, never will be!
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    Posts: 1,033
    Just want to point out that between MI1 to MI2 we had four years and then six years to MI3, then five until MI4.

    These gaps are consistent with recent Bond pacing.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I dunno why James Bond should be worried about
    Just want to point out that between MI1 to MI2 we had four years and then six years to MI3, then five until MI4.

    These gaps are consistent with recent Bond pacing.

    Right.

    The shortest gap was between ROGUE NATION and FALLOUT by three years, and that’s the only time it happened.

    Barbara and Michael gets a ton of flack by some fans for not making as many movies as Cubby did. They’ve only made 9 since they took over. Yet, Cruise has only made 7 to this year, but no one seems to complain about that.

    WHY DOES CRUISE HATE HIS FANS?! WHY IS HE MAKING MOVIES IN BETWEEN?!

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    WHY DOES CRUISE HATE HIS FANS?! WHY IS HE MAKING MOVIES IN BETWEEN?!

    Yep. It’s exhausting to read, and I’m more an idiot for even responding; it’s the definition of madness.

    Plus, most of the “facts” that most of these complainers write, are figments of their imaginations (diminishing box office? Even with Covid, Bond hovers around 8 hundred million dollars….)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2023 Posts: 16,414
    I dunno why James Bond should be worried about
    Just want to point out that between MI1 to MI2 we had four years and then six years to MI3, then five until MI4.

    These gaps are consistent with recent Bond pacing.

    Right.

    The shortest gap was between ROGUE NATION and FALLOUT by three years, and that’s the only time it happened.

    Barbara and Michael gets a ton of flack by some fans for not making as many movies as Cubby did. They’ve only made 9 since they took over. Yet, Cruise has only made 7 to this year, but no one seems to complain about that.

    WHY DOES CRUISE HATE HIS FANS?! WHY IS HE MAKING MOVIES IN BETWEEN?!

    Yes that's a good point, and he only started a year after Broccoli & Wilson did. And has made less money with MI.
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