Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • Posts: 1,993
    @DarthDimi I haven't missed your points, MTM's, or Peter's.
  • I can understand why some users may feel upset when people relentlessly bash something they like. Lord knows that I’ve defended Brosnan many times on this site from criticisms that I see hold no merit, but honestly nowadays I just don’t waste my energy in replying. If someone has a different opinion than I do, then so be it. No point in sounding like a broken record regurgitating the same points over, and over again. That also goes for those who continually complain about a film/actor they don’t like.
  • edited August 2023 Posts: 6,709
    Well, in the end, it's in the very nature of forums to argue. All good sports, I'd say. Only some tend to go all ad hominem, and others are a bit compulsory in their way of answering. But hey, in the end, we all still feel rather strongly about all things Bond. And that, my friends, is brilliant.
  • edited August 2023 Posts: 3,327
    Just to throw my 2 cents worth in here on the subject. I love the Louis Armstrong song from OHMSS, and I didn't like it being ripped off in NTTD. It just felt lazy to me, but then again, there are many things I didn't like about NTTD - that was just one of them.

    I felt Bond's romance and death should have earned it's own song and theme which Zimmer and an artist could have put together, but hey ho! Even if they had, I still would have hated NTTD.... ;)

    Us Bond fans are worse than football supporters. We are so fickle... :((
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I liked the use of Armstrong’s song, but I wish Zimmer had actually expanded more on Madeleine’s theme from SP.



    Also regarding the OHMSS theme, I wish they had actually used that in SP first to be worked as their recurring theme, then it reprises for NTTD.
  • Posts: 1,993
    @jetsetwilly Love the hate! I do enjoy a good sense of humor. In NTTD, the musical callback to Vesper was right on. That took me back to the brilliant CR and everything I love about that film. That callback made perfect sense.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,789
    Just to throw my 2 cents worth in here on the subject. I love the Louis Armstrong song from OHMSS, and I didn't like it being ripped off in NTTD. It just felt lazy to me, but then again, there are many things I didn't like about NTTD - that was just one of them.

    I felt Bond's romance and death should have earned it's own song and theme which Zimmer and an artist could have put together, but hey ho! Even if they had, I still would have hated NTTD.... ;)

    Us Bond fans are worse than football supporters. We are so fickle... :((

    Regarding our opinions towards the usage of We Have All The Time In The World in NTTD, it's just that we know how to value things, and it's probably the main reason why we didn't liked NTTD using the We Have All The Time In The World song.

    I know and respect the value of that song, it has a significance for me, but anyway, I'm not going any further.

    And it depends on what type of Bond fandom:

    Actually, this fandom is more milder than say, James Bond Subreddit or even the commenters in the Official James Bond FB page, it's like the literal black and white world, some of them just turned echo chambers or hiveminds and tends to shout the same sentiment without having some knowledge about what they're talking, and as a result, it turned to a large pack of vitriol.

    This fandom, on the other hand, are full of Bond fans with a lot of knowledge about the Franchise, this fandom really knows Bond well, and very open minded to take on arguments with class and great sense of morality, more like professional manner.

    When we're getting in some sort of arguments in this fandom, we're detailing our opinions in the most articulate manner possible.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,418
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Just to throw my 2 cents worth in here on the subject. I love the Louis Armstrong song from OHMSS, and I didn't like it being ripped off in NTTD. It just felt lazy to me, but then again, there are many things I didn't like about NTTD - that was just one of them.

    I felt Bond's romance and death should have earned it's own song and theme which Zimmer and an artist could have put together, but hey ho! Even if they had, I still would have hated NTTD.... ;)

    Us Bond fans are worse than football supporters. We are so fickle... :((

    Regarding our opinions towards the usage of We Have All The Time In The World in NTTD, it's just that we know how to value things, and it's probably the main reason why we didn't liked NTTD using the We Have All The Time In The World song.

    Glad to know I don’t ‘know how to value things’! ;)
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    Posts: 685
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Just to throw my 2 cents worth in here on the subject. I love the Louis Armstrong song from OHMSS, and I didn't like it being ripped off in NTTD. It just felt lazy to me, but then again, there are many things I didn't like about NTTD - that was just one of them.

    I felt Bond's romance and death should have earned it's own song and theme which Zimmer and an artist could have put together, but hey ho! Even if they had, I still would have hated NTTD.... ;)

    Us Bond fans are worse than football supporters. We are so fickle... :((

    Regarding our opinions towards the usage of We Have All The Time In The World in NTTD, it's just that we know how to value things, and it's probably the main reason why we didn't liked NTTD using the We Have All The Time In The World song.

    Glad to know I don’t ‘know how to value things’! ;)

    I bet your house is filled with broken Chinese ceramics and vandalised Renaissance paintings.
  • i want Bond going up to Northern England for a change

    If they ever wanted to go full Roger Moore again I think you could get a fun PTS out of it, before shooting off to somewhere more exotic (less UK in general please). Gunbarrel opens on a spinning roulette wheel but as we pan out, we find out we’re not in Monaco, it’s the Genting in Bolton. Bond’s miserable scowl as he walks in to meet his contact would be something.
    mtm wrote: »
    I think I'd take Craig's one there; I think he looked great.

    As I recall, Brosnan turned up to one of the premieres (TWINE I think..?) in a weird cravat and morning suit affair, looked like he was going to a wedding/playing an Edwardian time traveller. Very odd.

    Yes, here you go:

    james-bond-actor-pierce-brosnan-and-his-partner-keely-shaye-smith-as-they-arrive-for-the.jpg?s=612x612&w=gi&k=20&c=dvX1B2Q6Xnhw7_qkcvScXnzktQBYc9fJQ_sSt3y3ubo=

    That's a dapper looking Doctor Who cosplay that Brozzer is wearing. Like a black(?)/blue variant of McGann's original costume.

    It’ll obviously never happen, but as he’s got older I’ve started to think Pierce could be a great Doctor. He’s got a distinct presence, which I think you need for that part, and now that he’s looking older I think you could have him as a more unconventional hero. Dress him in something like that, have him grow his beard and mustache out like in that western he did, and let him lean into his natural talent for scenery chewing, and you wouldn’t think Bond anymore from looking at him, you’d think weird, old fashioned, eccentric. I could see it working well.
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    To be honest, I wished they've just did what have they done in Casino Royale, many people found the Vesper-Bond romance worked despite of them not having some sort of love theme, compared here with Madeleine, where they've put a lot more effort, but the romance was empty and shallow.

    As it was in OHMSS, but that's fine. I think it worked perfectly well here.

    Yeah I used to think Tracy was more convincing than Vesper, but eventually I decided that was just my nostalgia for OHMSS talking. Not sure a film like Bond is really capable of realistic deep feeling romances. Tracy, Vesper and Madeline are all only the “big ones” because the filmmakers decided they are. You’ve just got to accept the forced “I love you’s” in the same way you accept women with two minutes of screentime immediately jumping into bed with him. Heightened reality.

    There’s at least some thematic depth to Bond and Madeline’s unrealistic relationship though, and again, I think OHMSS has the benefit of being an older film. It’s easy to say now that we accept it but if this site existed in 1969 I bet people would’ve slagged off the shallow romance in that one.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2023 Posts: 16,418
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Just to throw my 2 cents worth in here on the subject. I love the Louis Armstrong song from OHMSS, and I didn't like it being ripped off in NTTD. It just felt lazy to me, but then again, there are many things I didn't like about NTTD - that was just one of them.

    I felt Bond's romance and death should have earned it's own song and theme which Zimmer and an artist could have put together, but hey ho! Even if they had, I still would have hated NTTD.... ;)

    Us Bond fans are worse than football supporters. We are so fickle... :((

    Regarding our opinions towards the usage of We Have All The Time In The World in NTTD, it's just that we know how to value things, and it's probably the main reason why we didn't liked NTTD using the We Have All The Time In The World song.

    Glad to know I don’t ‘know how to value things’! ;)

    I bet your house is filled with broken Chinese ceramics and vandalised Renaissance paintings.

    My litter tray, you mean? :P


    i want Bond going up to Northern England for a change

    If they ever wanted to go full Roger Moore again I think you could get a fun PTS out of it, before shooting off to somewhere more exotic (less UK in general please). Gunbarrel opens on a spinning roulette wheel but as we pan out, we find out we’re not in Monaco, it’s the Genting in Bolton. Bond’s miserable scowl as he walks in to meet his contact would be something.

    Love it! :D I do quite like seeing Bond in unsuitable places. Even him in his white DJ in Las Vegas is pretty fun.
    mtm wrote: »
    I think I'd take Craig's one there; I think he looked great.

    As I recall, Brosnan turned up to one of the premieres (TWINE I think..?) in a weird cravat and morning suit affair, looked like he was going to a wedding/playing an Edwardian time traveller. Very odd.

    Yes, here you go:

    james-bond-actor-pierce-brosnan-and-his-partner-keely-shaye-smith-as-they-arrive-for-the.jpg?s=612x612&w=gi&k=20&c=dvX1B2Q6Xnhw7_qkcvScXnzktQBYc9fJQ_sSt3y3ubo=

    That's a dapper looking Doctor Who cosplay that Brozzer is wearing. Like a black(?)/blue variant of McGann's original costume.

    It’ll obviously never happen, but as he’s got older I’ve started to think Pierce could be a great Doctor. He’s got a distinct presence, which I think you need for that part, and now that he’s looking older I think you could have him as a more unconventional hero. Dress him in something like that, have him grow his beard and mustache out like in that western he did, and let him lean into his natural talent for scenery chewing, and you wouldn’t think Bond anymore from looking at him, you’d think weird, old fashioned, eccentric. I could see it working well.

    Yes I think all you need for the Doctor really is a very good actor and/or someone with great scene presence, so Pierce could certainly do it. I remember watching that Comic Relief thing in the 90s with Rowan Atkinson and then lots of random celebs regenerating into the Doctor, and feeling it was a bit of a shame that the final one wasn't Pierce. He was around doing publicity for one of the Bonds (and Jonathan Pryce was in it as the Master, even wearing his Elliot Carver costume!) and I thought it would have been great fun for Bond to be Doctor Who. Hugh Grant did it of course, and he's another excellent lost Doctor.
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    To be honest, I wished they've just did what have they done in Casino Royale, many people found the Vesper-Bond romance worked despite of them not having some sort of love theme, compared here with Madeleine, where they've put a lot more effort, but the romance was empty and shallow.

    As it was in OHMSS, but that's fine. I think it worked perfectly well here.

    Yeah I used to think Tracy was more convincing than Vesper, but eventually I decided that was just my nostalgia for OHMSS talking. Not sure a film like Bond is really capable of realistic deep feeling romances. Tracy, Vesper and Madeline are all only the “big ones” because the filmmakers decided they are. You’ve just got to accept the forced “I love you’s” in the same way you accept women with two minutes of screentime immediately jumping into bed with him. Heightened reality.

    There’s at least some thematic depth to Bond and Madeline’s unrealistic relationship though, and again, I think OHMSS has the benefit of being an older film. It’s easy to say now that we accept it but if this site existed in 1969 I bet people would’ve slagged off the shallow romance in that one.

    Yes, thank you. None of the romances are really terribly convincing (lots of people talk of chemistry between Craig and Green but I don't really see it), and OHMSS is probably the least convincing of the lot. A montage!
    If OHMSS were new it would get totally savaged: who is this new rubbish Bond? Bond and Tracy have zero chemistry, how am I expected to believe Bond would leave MI6 for her? Where is the Bond formula? How am I expected to have enjoyed a downbeat ending like that? Surely the series can't possibly continue now Bond is a depressive? But yes, because it's old and we've grown to love it and see what's great about it, it somehow becomes untouchably perfect and anything new can't possibly compare, when it really really does.

    I've started watching a few of those reaction videos on YouTube recently- the 'Popcorn in Bed' ones have been watching through the whole Bond series. When you see their reaction to Bond and Madeline together then it's hard to say that everything is a failure about it. It's interesting to see stuff through other peoples' eyes sometimes.
  • Posts: 1,078
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Are we, indeed, considered stupid for liking NTTD?

    Not at all. I think you're very lucky. I've watched the film several times, determined to enjoy it. But I always end up hating it.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I liked the use of Armstrong’s song, but I wish Zimmer had actually expanded more on Madeleine’s theme from SP.



    Also regarding the OHMSS theme, I wish they had actually used that in SP first to be worked as their recurring theme, then it reprises for NTTD.

    Madeline's theme is a beautiful piece of music, espicially 0.42 to 1.10, that swell of music is lovely. I wish this had appeared in NTTD somewhere but its one of those things
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,418
    Yes I think that's lovely.


  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,138
    Where does Bond go after Craig?

    Take inspiration from each actors debut films, and go from there.
    When in doubt, go back to Fleming.
  • Posts: 1,078
    CrabKey wrote: »
    . . . when MTM characterizes another's opinion as silly and then proceeds to go off about an opinion because it is contrary to his and he's had a rubbish day, that does not read as measured and reasonable.

    I've yet to visit a forum dedicated to any aspect of popular culture, where there aren't people posting who have a snotty attitude to people they disagree with. In fact, it's not as bad here as other places, but I've found you don't get it with other hobby or specialist interest forums. I go on an astronomy forum and people are so polite, it's a joy.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,789
    CrabKey wrote: »
    . . . when MTM characterizes another's opinion as silly and then proceeds to go off about an opinion because it is contrary to his and he's had a rubbish day, that does not read as measured and reasonable.

    I've yet to visit a forum dedicated to any aspect of popular culture, where there aren't people posting who have a snotty attitude to people they disagree with. In fact, it's not as bad here as other places, but I've found you don't get it with other hobby or specialist interest forums. I go on an astronomy forum and people are so polite, it's a joy.

    In Reddit, now that's the literal meaning of Snotty and Toxic.
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Just to throw my 2 cents worth in here on the subject. I love the Louis Armstrong song from OHMSS, and I didn't like it being ripped off in NTTD. It just felt lazy to me, but then again, there are many things I didn't like about NTTD - that was just one of them.

    I felt Bond's romance and death should have earned it's own song and theme which Zimmer and an artist could have put together, but hey ho! Even if they had, I still would have hated NTTD.... ;)

    Us Bond fans are worse than football supporters. We are so fickle... :((

    Regarding our opinions towards the usage of We Have All The Time In The World in NTTD, it's just that we know how to value things, and it's probably the main reason why we didn't liked NTTD using the We Have All The Time In The World song.

    Glad to know I don’t ‘know how to value things’! ;)

    I bet your house is filled with broken Chinese ceramics and vandalised Renaissance paintings.

    My litter tray, you mean? :P


    i want Bond going up to Northern England for a change

    If they ever wanted to go full Roger Moore again I think you could get a fun PTS out of it, before shooting off to somewhere more exotic (less UK in general please). Gunbarrel opens on a spinning roulette wheel but as we pan out, we find out we’re not in Monaco, it’s the Genting in Bolton. Bond’s miserable scowl as he walks in to meet his contact would be something.
    mtm wrote: »
    I think I'd take Craig's one there; I think he looked great.

    As I recall, Brosnan turned up to one of the premieres (TWINE I think..?) in a weird cravat and morning suit affair, looked like he was going to a wedding/playing an Edwardian time traveller. Very odd.

    Yes, here you go:

    james-bond-actor-pierce-brosnan-and-his-partner-keely-shaye-smith-as-they-arrive-for-the.jpg?s=612x612&w=gi&k=20&c=dvX1B2Q6Xnhw7_qkcvScXnzktQBYc9fJQ_sSt3y3ubo=

    That's a dapper looking Doctor Who cosplay that Brozzer is wearing. Like a black(?)/blue variant of McGann's original costume.

    It’ll obviously never happen, but as he’s got older I’ve started to think Pierce could be a great Doctor. He’s got a distinct presence, which I think you need for that part, and now that he’s looking older I think you could have him as a more unconventional hero. Dress him in something like that, have him grow his beard and mustache out like in that western he did, and let him lean into his natural talent for scenery chewing, and you wouldn’t think Bond anymore from looking at him, you’d think weird, old fashioned, eccentric. I could see it working well.
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    To be honest, I wished they've just did what have they done in Casino Royale, many people found the Vesper-Bond romance worked despite of them not having some sort of love theme, compared here with Madeleine, where they've put a lot more effort, but the romance was empty and shallow.

    As it was in OHMSS, but that's fine. I think it worked perfectly well here.

    Yeah I used to think Tracy was more convincing than Vesper, but eventually I decided that was just my nostalgia for OHMSS talking. Not sure a film like Bond is really capable of realistic deep feeling romances. Tracy, Vesper and Madeline are all only the “big ones” because the filmmakers decided they are. You’ve just got to accept the forced “I love you’s” in the same way you accept women with two minutes of screentime immediately jumping into bed with him. Heightened reality.

    There’s at least some thematic depth to Bond and Madeline’s unrealistic relationship though, and again, I think OHMSS has the benefit of being an older film. It’s easy to say now that we accept it but if this site existed in 1969 I bet people would’ve slagged off the shallow romance in that one.

    Yes, thank you. None of the romances are really terribly convincing (lots of people talk of chemistry between Craig and Green but I don't really see it), and OHMSS is probably the least convincing of the lot. A montage!
    If OHMSS were new it would get totally savaged: who is this new rubbish Bond? Bond and Tracy have zero chemistry, how am I expected to believe Bond would leave MI6 for her? Where is the Bond formula? How am I expected to have enjoyed a downbeat ending like that? Surely the series can't possibly continue now Bond is a depressive? But yes, because it's old and we've grown to love it and see what's great about it, it somehow becomes untouchably perfect and anything new can't possibly compare, when it really really does.

    I've started watching a few of those reaction videos on YouTube recently- the 'Popcorn in Bed' ones have been watching through the whole Bond series. When you see their reaction to Bond and Madeline together then it's hard to say that everything is a failure about it. It's interesting to see stuff through other peoples' eyes sometimes.

    The main advantage of the Bond and Vesper & Bond and Tracy romance was they're straight out of the pages, whatever in their romances have couldn't be faulted as it's in the book, that's the way Fleming wrote those romances, and the filmmakers just adapted it in screen.

    If one may fault the romance, then it's more on Fleming.

    But the Bond and Madeleine romance could be easily blamed because they're made of original ideas, not from a book.
  • I personally regard Craig as best Bond ever but I appreciate and respect alot of others feel differently.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2023 Posts: 16,418
    SIS_HQ wrote: »

    The main advantage of the Bond and Vesper & Bond and Tracy romance was they're straight out of the pages, whatever in their romances have couldn't be faulted as it's in the book, that's the way Fleming wrote those romances, and the filmmakers just adapted it in screen.

    If one may fault the romance, then it's more on Fleming.

    But the Bond and Madeleine romance could be easily blamed because they're made of original ideas, not from a book.

    I'm not sure Fleming wrote a montage to a love song in his book, no! :)
    I don't really follow your thinking here: it's okay they're not convincing because they're from a book? Whereas original ideas are worse? I'm really sorry, I just don't get it.
    I personally regard Craig as best Bond ever but I appreciate and respect alot of others feel differently.

    I'm with you there, and obviously totally get why many go for Connery, but I'm not interested in folks saying I'm wrong to like Craig. I find that phrasing it as a fact that NTTD is bad, doesn't compare to OHMSS etc. is disrespectful in itself and feels designed to try and wind folks up. I'm sure someone who wants an argument will be able to dredge through my old posts and find me accidentally stating as fact that this or that is bad when it's a matter of opinion, but in general I try enjoy these films and make sure any minus points are just how I see them, not universal.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,789
    I personally regard Craig as best Bond ever but I appreciate and respect alot of others feel differently.

    I don't disliked Craig as Bond (Moore is my least Favorite Bond), but SP & NTTD are the films from his era that's not my cup of tea.
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »

    The main advantage of the Bond and Vesper & Bond and Tracy romance was they're straight out of the pages, whatever in their romances have couldn't be faulted as it's in the book, that's the way Fleming wrote those romances, and the filmmakers just adapted it in screen.

    If one may fault the romance, then it's more on Fleming.

    But the Bond and Madeleine romance could be easily blamed because they're made of original ideas, not from a book.

    I'm not sure Fleming wrote a montage to a love song in his book, no! :)
    I don't really follow your thinking here: it's okay they're not convincing because they're from a book? Whereas original ideas are worse? I'm really sorry, I just don't get it.
    What I'm saying here was sure, you may find the romances unconvincing, but it's more on the books, they couldn't changed it.

    OHMSS at least did more to the romance by adding the montage to further developed their relationship, but it's still remained intact.
    The same for Bond and Vesper's relationship.

    If there are wrong in their romances, it's also on the books, and they couldn't do anything about those.

    But the Bond and Madeleine romance, it could've been written so much better, that's why it's easy to blame it, because the writing came from the scriptwriters themselves, they could do anything with that romance, yet (maybe my opinion) it's still felt stale compared to the other two.

    And we're starting to go off the rails in this one.

    Note: I'm not dredging through your old posts.

    I'm cutting this off, after all these were all subjective, hoping you're alright 😅.

    I've enjoyed arguments like these, one of the most interesting aspects in the Bond Fandom 😊.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    edited August 2023 Posts: 15,138
    How is it your English and posting style, goes from being very well written to rather broken quite sporadically @SIS_HQ
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,789
    Benny wrote: »
    How is it your English and posting style, goes from being very well written to rather broken quite sporadically @SIS_HQ

    Additions in my posts, maybe? 😅 Too many distractions while typing and sometimes I get lost while typing, and sometimes I'm typing outside. 😁

    Don't worry, I'm correcting them though.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,589
    Here's a question. If Bond doesn't die in the end, would those who didn't like it, like it slightly, if not more? It would be a top 5 Bond film if he didn't die and I rank it around 16-17 with the ending we have.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,789
    Here's a question. If Bond doesn't die in the end, would those who didn't like it, like it slightly, if not more? It would be a top 5 Bond film if he didn't die and I rank it around 16-17 with the ending we have.

    Like what everyone's telling about The Man With The Golden Gun, there's a potential in No Time To Die, I think there's a good film hiding in there, the concepts were interesting and some risky/bold moves.

    The problems (at least for me) are:
    1. The film continuing on where SPECTRE left off, had it been a standalone, basic film, It would've been better
    2. The fan services, the callbacks, those felt very lazy.
    3. Undeveloped plot and characters, it felt overstuffed but none of them are fully fleshed out to be interesting.

    So, is Bond's death for me the biggest elephant in the room? No, actually, I don't see any problem with that idea (on paper), it's a risky, bold move, and could've been groundbreaking, but my other issues with the film affects that ending.

    If the three that I've mentioned above didn't happened in the film, I would've liked it more even with that ending.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,418
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    I personally regard Craig as best Bond ever but I appreciate and respect alot of others feel differently.

    I don't disliked Craig as Bond (Moore is my least Favorite Bond), but SP & NTTD are the films from his era that's not my cup of tea.
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »

    The main advantage of the Bond and Vesper & Bond and Tracy romance was they're straight out of the pages, whatever in their romances have couldn't be faulted as it's in the book, that's the way Fleming wrote those romances, and the filmmakers just adapted it in screen.

    If one may fault the romance, then it's more on Fleming.

    But the Bond and Madeleine romance could be easily blamed because they're made of original ideas, not from a book.

    I'm not sure Fleming wrote a montage to a love song in his book, no! :)
    I don't really follow your thinking here: it's okay they're not convincing because they're from a book? Whereas original ideas are worse? I'm really sorry, I just don't get it.
    What I'm saying here was sure, you may find the romances unconvincing, but it's more on the books, they couldn't changed it.

    OHMSS at least did more to the romance by adding the montage to further developed their relationship, but it's still remained intact.
    The same for Bond and Vesper's relationship.

    If there are wrong in their romances, it's also on the books, and they couldn't do anything about those.

    But the Bond and Madeleine romance, it could've been written so much better, that's why it's easy to blame it, because the writing came from the scriptwriters themselves, they could do anything with that romance, yet (maybe my opinion) it's still felt stale compared to the other two.

    And we're starting to go off the rails in this one.

    Note: I'm not dredging through your old posts.

    I'm cutting this off, after all these were all subjective, hoping you're alright 😅.

    I've enjoyed arguments like these, one of the most interesting aspects in the Bond Fandom 😊.

    Okay, I don't really agree with the angle that it's Fleming's fault, but also whose fault it is doesn't really matter to me. If I like a film, I like it; if I don't like one, I don't like it. It doesn't matter to me who's to blame.
  • Posts: 1,078
    Here's a question. If Bond doesn't die in the end, would those who didn't like it, like it slightly, if not more? It would be a top 5 Bond film if he didn't die and I rank it around 16-17 with the ending we have.

    Ending it differently would certainly make it feel like less of a 'f*ck you' to the character, but then there's still the problem of Killing Felix, killing Blofeld, Bond the dad, and to me, Craig breaks character too much to be convincing. As I've said, the movie veers too far from the general formula for me to consider it a worthy entry in the series.
    But, to be fair, the film is very well made, and I'm one of the few that likes the nanobot plot, and I really don't mind that the main villain is poorly written. If it were any other action-romance I'd say "yea, not a bad movie". The PTS and the Spectre party scenes are great, certainly. It's probably a better plotted movie than SPECTRE, and certainly better plotted than the mess that was QoS. And Craig owns the screen.
    It's a bit weird to say it, but it's a decent enough movie, and a better movie the Die Another Day, but as a James Bond movie, for me, it stinks.


  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,418
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Here's a question. If Bond doesn't die in the end, would those who didn't like it, like it slightly, if not more? It would be a top 5 Bond film if he didn't die and I rank it around 16-17 with the ending we have.

    Like what everyone's telling about The Man With The Golden Gun, there's a potential in No Time To Die, I think there's a good film hiding in there, the concepts were interesting and some risky/bold moves.

    The problems (at least for me) are:
    1. The film continuing on where SPECTRE left off, had it been a standalone, basic film, It would've been better
    2. The fan services, the callbacks, those felt very lazy.
    3. Undeveloped plot and characters, it felt overstuffed but none of them are fully fleshed out to be interesting.

    So, is Bond's death for me the biggest elephant in the room? No, actually, I don't see any problem with that idea (on paper), it's a risky, bold move, and could've been groundbreaking, but my other issues with the film affects that ending.

    If the three that I've mentioned above didn't happened in the film, I would've liked it more even with that ending.

    Yes I agree that Bond's death pretty much works, and I think it's good in the movie. My main issue is that it's missing that Bond feel slightly- I can't actually put my finger on it. But Mendes knew what it is and managed to give his films the feel of Bond movies where this one misses that slightly for me.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    Here's a question. If Bond doesn't die in the end, would those who didn't like it, like it slightly, if not more? It would be a top 5 Bond film if he didn't die and I rank it around 16-17 with the ending we have.
    [T]here's still the problem of Killing Felix, killing Blofeld, Bond the dad

    Fleming did two of these things, and almost did the third.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,807
    A 'f*ck you' to the character?

    To me the opposite was and is true.

  • Posts: 6,709
    Benny wrote: »
    Where does Bond go after Craig?

    Take inspiration from each actors debut films, and go from there.
    When in doubt, go back to Fleming.

    Yes, well said. I quite agree.
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