Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,789
    CrabKey wrote: »
    To take nothing away from Craig, but the screenplay's the thing. Not much a great actor can do with a poorly written script. Both he and the script were on the mark.
    Yes, think of Die Another Day, they had some established casts in the roles (one is an Oscar winner), but none of them saved that mess of a screenplay.

    And it's the same case of when you have such actors who had played great characters in the past and won an Oscar (Christoph Waltz and Rami Malek), but still couldn't able to elevate the material that they had to worked with (cough, cough, SPECTRE and No Time To Die).
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Despite being dated and overmuch description, the novel was a much better story than the film. The addition of Blofeld, Whyte, spaceships, lasers, a moon buggy and the rest of the silliness spun out of hardly anything resembling the novel simply did not make for a good film.
    This is the case, with the possible exception of the henchman (Kidd and Wint; although as one have said, they're more nastier in the book), the film didn't add some new flavor or color into the characters.

    Why I liked Moonraker the film despite of being so outlandish compared to the book, because at least the characters in the film made it up for me, although I prefer the plot of book, but the film have something to match up with the characters (that I can safely say, are more preferable than the ones in the books), like Hugo Drax and Holly Goodhead (well, might be a personal opinion, as I prefer them over Gala Brand and the literary Hugo Drax).

    With Diamonds Are Forever, there's nothing really, Tiffany Case, one of the best Fleming Bond Girls had turned into a bratish, immature, airhead (in the third act), who just there to look sexy, compared in the book where she had a lot more agency and even built a serious, deep romance with Bond (I actually liked their romance more compared to the one with Tracy five books later, which I heavily prefer in the film).

    I would've accept Blofeld more if he was characterized as more of Savalas' version from the previous film, but no, it didn't, and they've had the worst offender in dressing him with a drag!
    The plot wasn't that any better with diamonds and space rockets, Die Another Day could've done this better if not for the overuse of CGIs and over the top script.

    I think, this film could've been improved upon the book had they made it a revenge sequel really, maybe there's a chance that it would've improved upon the book, and maybe also upon the book's plot of You Only Live Twice (to which the revenge plot wasn't handled that well either).
    I know that by today's standards Bond won't smoke anymore, but is there any slight chance that he can smoke again? I'm not saying he should be a compulsive smoker, but more of a casual one, you know.

    I'd loved to see him smoke again, why? I mean Bond is a fictional character, not everything needs to be related to real life, that's how Fleming created the character, it's like again, his sexism, his ways of womanizing, that were the traits associated to him, it's not about the endorsement, it's about him as a character, just because the times changing, he needs to change everything he has as a character?
    Sure, books and films are two different things, but if that's almost the case, then might as well, align Bond with diversity culture of today (make him an Asian, Arabic, or etc.) Because that's what the standards of today are calling for.

    I know smoking is not cool, but again, after the events of the Craig Era, is Bond really meant that to be cool nowadays? Are his ways cool? Booze, womanizing, sex, danger, are they still considered cool nowadays? Not.
    Bond is not meant to be cool anyway, he's a blunt instrument of the Government, and the Craig Era opened up the people's minds regarding the real nature of Bond.

    I mean, the Craig Era made Bond such an unlikeable character, he's now the Bond that the people wishing not to be, so, since that's happened, I don't see any reason for him not to smoke, the Craig Era changed the people view Bond, the way the public looked at Bond, he's no longer cool like the good ol' days, he's now an unlikeable tragic character working for the Government, no longer cool, so to have him smoke is fine.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2023 Posts: 16,383
    I think I’d very much disagree with the idea that Bond is not meant to be cool.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited September 2023 Posts: 8,183
    I think what Bond shouldn’t be is aspirational, and I think they’ve done a good job with Daniel Craig’s Bond by making him someone fewer would want to be.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    mtm wrote: »
    I think I’d very much disagree with the idea that Bond is not meant to be cool.

    Bond was cool before, but the Craig Era lessened it.
    And there's no wrong with that, in fact he's really like that in the books.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2023 Posts: 16,383
    I think what Bond shouldn’t be is aspirational, and I think they’ve done a good job with Daniel Craig’s Bond by making him someone fewer would want to be.

    I think there's still a lot of him that is aspirational, the same that it ever was- the looks, the wardrobe, the watches, the cars, the hotels, the women, the way he acts and knows what to do in sophisticated social situations etc.
    When people say "ooh you're just like James Bond" they're not referring to the bits of the films where he gets tortured in basements or sweatily machine guns villainous goons: they mean you're looking sharp in a dinner suit, because that's the iconic, and vaguely everyday part of Bond, and it is aspirational.
    The bits where he looks and is being cool and sophisticated are the aspirational bits, the parts where he murders people are less so (although are part of the alpha male, completely in control and unbeatable fantasy of course).
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think I’d very much disagree with the idea that Bond is not meant to be cool.

    Bond was cool before, but the Craig Era lessened it.
    And there's no wrong with that, in fact he's really like that in the books.

    Nah; he's still cool, he just faces a bit more adversity and drama every so often. I think many people would say Craig is much cooler than Brosnan, for example, who has a slight cheesy, 'Man at C&A' vibe about him, whereas Craig felt more genuinely stylish.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    For most of the '60s, Connery was pretty much the coolest man on the face of the Earth, no? After that? I'd have to say that it was Craig who made Bond legitimately cool again.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Yeah, agreed.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,135
    Bond has always been cool. Connery had it in spades. Lazenby had it, maybe on reflection.
    Roger Moore made Bond cool in the 70's and 80's (maybe not AVTAK ;) )
    Timothy Dalton went all out in putting the Pushkin scene on the map...and cool!
    Pierce was cool throughout his tenure, whether flicking his head as bullets wiz past in GE or selling an invisible car in DAD.
    And then we get Daniel Craig. Yeah he made Bond very cool in CR and QOS and SF and SP and again in NTTD. But to say Bond was only cool with Connery and Craig is too much of a long stretch.
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 1,078
    Benny wrote: »
    And then we get Daniel Craig. Yeah he made Bond very cool in CR and QOS and SF and SP and again in NTTD. But to say Bond was only cool with Connery and Craig is too much of a long stretch.

    I think the Craig era made him cool in a contemporary way, more than any actor perhaps since Connery. James Bond is always 'cool', but Moore and Brosnan especially were more caricature cool. Whereas Connery and Craig were more edgy, which made them officially cooler in the eyes of the general public.
  • Benny wrote: »
    Bond has always been cool. Connery had it in spades. Lazenby had it, maybe on reflection.
    Roger Moore made Bond cool in the 70's and 80's (maybe not AVTAK ;) )
    Timothy Dalton went all out in putting the Pushkin scene on the map...and cool!
    Pierce was cool throughout his tenure, whether flicking his head as bullets wiz past in GE or selling an invisible car in DAD.
    And then we get Daniel Craig. Yeah he made Bond very cool in CR and QOS and SF and SP and again in NTTD. But to say Bond was only cool with Connery and Craig is too much of a long stretch.

    Agreed.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    Casino Royale gave Bond a credibility and depth he didn't have in the Brosnan era, where he was awesome but cartoony. I'd been watching Bond at the cinema since The Spy Who Loved Me, but I hadn't gone out and bought a Bond DVD until Casino Royale made me excited about Bond as a hero rather than just a movie event.
  • Casino Royale gave Bond a credibility and depth he didn't have in the Brosnan era, where he was awesome but cartoony. I'd been watching Bond at the cinema since The Spy Who Loved Me, but I hadn't gone out and bought a Bond DVD until Casino Royale made me excited about Bond as a hero rather than just a movie event.

    Brosnan’s Bond had the credibility and depth to him. It was just buried in between all the goofy moments that happen in those films.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Casino Royale gave Bond a credibility and depth he didn't have in the Brosnan era, where he was awesome but cartoony. I'd been watching Bond at the cinema since The Spy Who Loved Me, but I hadn't gone out and bought a Bond DVD until Casino Royale made me excited about Bond as a hero rather than just a movie event.

    Yes, Bond had always been sort of fun cool with Roger and Pierce and all that; he did things that were cool like the Union Jack parachute or tank through the wall or whatever, but he himself was a kind of caricature of cool. But Craig actually felt different and legitimately cool: there was a reason he was often compared to Steve McQueen. Being in a legitimately good film in CR certainly helped that I think- Bond was a serious proposition again and here's a Bond who actually deserves to be on the cover of fashion mags etc.
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 2,266
    mtm wrote: »
    Casino Royale gave Bond a credibility and depth he didn't have in the Brosnan era, where he was awesome but cartoony. I'd been watching Bond at the cinema since The Spy Who Loved Me, but I hadn't gone out and bought a Bond DVD until Casino Royale made me excited about Bond as a hero rather than just a movie event.

    Yes, Bond had always been sort of fun cool with Roger and Pierce and all that; he did things that were cool like the Union Jack parachute or tank through the wall or whatever, but he himself was a kind of caricature of cool. But Craig actually felt different and legitimately cool: there was a reason he was often compared to Steve McQueen. Being in a legitimately good film in CR certainly helped that I think- Bond was a serious proposition again and here's a Bond who actually deserves to be on the cover of fashion mags etc.

    It’s all tastes and opinions, but I don’t think Bond was exactly lacking in that type of coolness you describe before Craig came into the scene. I for one believe that every Bond actor at one point has had the swagger needed for the character, and each actor nailed down at least one crucial element needed to portray the character. For me, Connery and Brosnan are the ones who best merge all the crucial elements together.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    Goldeneye's freefall to the plane, and the tank chase through Moscow defined Pierce's Bond as a larger-than-life hero capable of outrageous things, and that was cool, it was what the audience wanted at the time, but it did come at the expense of him being a believable character; Casino Royale really grounded Craig's Bond in the real world and made him cool but also believable, I think. It just had an edge that Bond hadn't really had since Connery.
  • But let’s not forget that Connery’s Bond eventually became larger than life himself! Sequences like the Little Nellie scene, and the underwater battle at the end of Thunderball were pretty fantastical compared to the earlier material he was given. I’d also argue that Craig’s Bond became every bit as larger than life/fantastical by the time of NTTD as well, certainly some of the stunts and gadgets in that film proved that to me.

    I don’t really mind if Bond films aren’t realistic. The most “realistic” Bond film for my money is FRWL, and that still has its fantastical bits at times. Heck Fleming’s Bond even fought a giant octopus at one point. It’s a fantasy first and foremost.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    edited September 2023 Posts: 2,641
    This is my opinion but I've always seen the 6 actors tenure in two different camps, playing Bond and being Bond.

    Playing Bond, Lazenby, Sir Roger, Pierce. As in there's not much depth or character, he's not evolving or changing he's just the same throughout. As is the producers were afraid to stray too far from the formula, and wanted Bond to be seen as cool no matter what. They push Bond to the edge for a bit and then throw him straight back in the tux like nothing happened, DAD being prime example.
    Lazenby is in this category because he's not much an actor, the others are here because of the way the stories were written.

    Being Bond
    , Connery, Dalton, Craig. They're given more meat to chew in their films and it shows Bond as a deeper, darker character who has a past and emotional scars. They're given moments to see how the situation would affect Bond. They do things that aren't always perfect and you don't always want to be in their shoes, because you see the difficulty that comes with the job.

    This isn't a dig at any of the actors, it's more how their Bond's and their films were written.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2023 Posts: 16,383
    mtm wrote: »
    Casino Royale gave Bond a credibility and depth he didn't have in the Brosnan era, where he was awesome but cartoony. I'd been watching Bond at the cinema since The Spy Who Loved Me, but I hadn't gone out and bought a Bond DVD until Casino Royale made me excited about Bond as a hero rather than just a movie event.

    Yes, Bond had always been sort of fun cool with Roger and Pierce and all that; he did things that were cool like the Union Jack parachute or tank through the wall or whatever, but he himself was a kind of caricature of cool. But Craig actually felt different and legitimately cool: there was a reason he was often compared to Steve McQueen. Being in a legitimately good film in CR certainly helped that I think- Bond was a serious proposition again and here's a Bond who actually deserves to be on the cover of fashion mags etc.

    It’s all tastes and opinions, but I don’t think Bond was exactly lacking in that type of coolness you describe before Craig came into the scene. I for one believe that every Bond actor at one point has had the swagger needed for the character, and each actor nailed down at least one crucial element needed to portray the character. For me, Connery and Brosnan are the ones who best merge all the crucial elements together.

    I think it's a zeitgeisty sort of thing though: when I say cool I mean sort of culturally. Can I imagine a student at university having a b/w photo of Connery or Craig on their wall non-ironically? I can, but I find it harder to imagine them having a photo of Pierce pouting and squinting without it being a bit tongue-in-cheek. I'm not really talking swagger as such (and I think that's one thing that Dalton never managed, but that's another issue), I mean cool.
    I don’t really mind if Bond films aren’t realistic. The most “realistic” Bond film for my money is FRWL, and that still has its fantastical bits at times. Heck Fleming’s Bond even fought a giant octopus at one point. It’s a fantasy first and foremost.

    Yes, FRWL may be one of the more grounded, but Le Carre it ain't: it's absolute frivolous nonsense! :) It even has some baddies opening a door to find a load of ninjas training with flame throwers and things; something which went straight into Austin Powers without really needing to be be exaggerated! :)
  • mtm wrote: »

    Yes, FRWL may be one of the more grounded, but Le Carre it ain't: it's absolute frivolous nonsense! :) It even has some baddies opening a door to find a load of ninjas training with flame throwers and things; something which went straight into Austin Powers without really needing to be be exaggerated! :)

    I love that Training Camp scene, it did a real great job of setting up the threat/menace of SPECTRE in just a few short moments. It’s completely ridiculous, but it’s fun as well. There’s also the scene where all four SPECTRE boats manage to stop right around the same exact spot where Bond emptied the barrels from the speed boat, allowing him to conveniently take all four boats down at once using just one flare. Certainly a contrived, but awesome moment!
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,789
    All Bonds are cool, but in a different way, some are in the character, but some are in their world, some are both.

    Craig is cool in the way he had expensive materials (just like Brosnan's Bond), he could wear tuxedos, go to expensive casinos and hotels, drive expensive Aston Martin sports cars and all what he can do (he could pilot a plane like in QoS, a helicopter in SPECTRE, his fighting skills, he had all the skills), but his life was not cool, sure it's made to add realism to the character, but it lessened the coolness regarding his life: "I don't want to have a life similar to him, I don't want to suffer the life that he had been through", think of the betrayals happened to him, his testicles being beaten, and getting bombed, for example.

    Dalton, his gadgets were cool, his lifestyle was cool, in The Living Daylights, he's cool all around, but I wouldn't call him in Licence To Kill cool at all, it's not cool, it's not something that Bond fans would've likely to dreamed of, but the world he inhibited in The Living Daylights? Why not, but not in LTK.

    Lazenby oddly was cool but also not so cool, like sure he's living a cool life of being in Casinos, being with a bunch of women in a Swiss Mountaintop Hut, his outfits, his machismo, skiing, they're all cool, but it's not cool to have a wife killed on a wedding day, like all of those adventures leading to a tragic end? Nah, definitely not what a Bond fan would've likely to dream about, even the bobsled scene (it's oddly cool but I don't want to experience it, because I know it's painful).

    Connery, Brosnan and Moore, they're cool, their world, their surroundings, all of what's in their era were all a wish fulfilment for the Bond fans that they wished they were, now, for me, that's cool.
    Who would liked to be driving a Lotus Esprit Submarine? Or having a mission in space? Or fighting a top of a Golden Gate Bridge, imagine fighting your villains in exotic locations with beautiful views? Being surrounded by beautiful women like in Thunderball, entering a volcano lair, skiing, driving an invisible car, having a car chase in ice, having a shootout while driving a speedboat, doing a car slide, doing Karate scenes, engaged in great motorcycle stunts, and etc. That's cool, it's the life that every Bond fan wants to have.

    But that's not certainly Craig, or Dalton in Licence To Kill, or at least what Lazenby suffered in the third act (including that bobsled and that ending).

    And those were not bad things, because they're in the books, Bond in the books suffered a lot more worse than the Bond of the films, though.
  • Posts: 1,078
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Bond in the books suffered a lot more worse than the Bond of the films, though.

    That used to be the case.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,152
    mtm wrote: »
    Craig actually felt different and legitimately cool: there was a reason he was often compared to Steve McQueen. Bond was a serious proposition again and here's a Bond who actually deserves to be on the cover of fashion mags etc... when I say cool I mean sort of culturally. Can I imagine a student at university having a b/w photo of Connery or Craig on their wall non-ironically? I can, but I find it harder to imagine them having a photo of Pierce pouting and squinting without it being a bit tongue-in-cheek. I'm not really talking swagger... I mean cool.
    Yes, exactly. I didn't mean it in the sense of the character looking cool and doing cool stuff in the movies - it's about Bond being legitimately, unironically cool in a wider cultural sense. Not knowing amusement, nudge-wink irony or guilty pleasure - just straight up cool as... Certainly in the UK, Bond didn't have that kind of cultural kudos under Sir Rog or Pierce. But it definitely did under Craig.

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Venutius wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Craig actually felt different and legitimately cool: there was a reason he was often compared to Steve McQueen. Bond was a serious proposition again and here's a Bond who actually deserves to be on the cover of fashion mags etc... when I say cool I mean sort of culturally. Can I imagine a student at university having a b/w photo of Connery or Craig on their wall non-ironically? I can, but I find it harder to imagine them having a photo of Pierce pouting and squinting without it being a bit tongue-in-cheek. I'm not really talking swagger... I mean cool.
    Yes, exactly. This isn't about the character looking cool and doing cool stuff in the movies - it's about Bond being legitimately, unironically cool in a wider cultural sense. Not knowing amusement, nudge-wink irony or guilty pleasure - just straight up cool AF (excuse the expression, just this once!). Certainly in the UK, Bond didn't have that kind of kudos under Sir Rog or Pierce. But it definitely did under Craig.

    I'm totally in agreement that two men walked into the role that were born with a coolness that the other actors couldn't match, because it just wasn’t innate.

    And I think @mtm is correct pointing out that there was a reason that Craig was compared to the King of Cool himself (and it was more than just a fleeting similarity in appearance).
  • I feel like this has been a topic already done before in this thread.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    All the Bond's have their own cool style but Connery and Craig have that alpha male swagger. Truly unmatched in my opinion
  • Posts: 1,986
    The best Bonds own the role. They don't give the impression of playing a role.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    This is my opinion but I've always seen the 6 actors tenure in two different camps, playing Bond and being Bond.

    Playing Bond, Lazenby, Sir Roger, Pierce. As in there's not much depth or character, he's not evolving or changing he's just the same throughout. As is the producers were afraid to stray too far from the formula, and wanted Bond to be seen as cool no matter what. They push Bond to the edge for a bit and then throw him straight back in the tux like nothing happened, DAD being prime example.
    Lazenby is in this category because he's not much an actor, the others are here because of the way the stories were written.

    Being Bond
    , Connery, Dalton, Craig. They're given more meat to chew in their films and it shows Bond as a deeper, darker character who has a past and emotional scars. They're given moments to see how the situation would affect Bond. They do things that aren't always perfect and you don't always want to be in their shoes, because you see the difficulty that comes with the job.

    This isn't a dig at any of the actors, it's more how their Bond's and their films were written.

    Craig and Dalton, yes. Did Sean really get any meat to chew, though?
  • Posts: 1,986
    @Roadphill - As the first Bond, Connery didn't have a previous actor to build his character from. (I don't count Jimmy Bond.) As for meat, I don't think his scripts were lightweight. Like the character, the scripts evolved, sometimes good and sometimes not. Was Connery's Bond Craig's Bond? No. Craig got bigger set pieces and portrayed an emotionally different Bond, but not necessarily a better or more interesting Bond. For me Connery is the most effortless Bond. He simply wears the character well. Sometimes I think his performances can be disarming, because he makes what he is doing look so natural and so easy. He does more with his eyes and facial expressions than any of his successors. Which Bond will audiences compare the next actor to?
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Depends if it's Sope or not... ;)
    But, yes, Connery absolutely did make it look effortless. No one - literally, no one - could have matched him in those films. IMO, obvs.
  • Posts: 1,859
    Venutius wrote: »
    Depends if it's Sope or not... ;)
    But, yes, Connery absolutely did make it look effortless. No one - literally, no one - could have matched him in those films. IMO, obvs.

    Agreed!
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