Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    Posts: 682
    It seems like a lot of people automatically blame P&W for anything they don't like (I've been guilty of it myself).
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,789
    Ending CR with a third act where Bond is confronted firsthand with
    Vesper's death
    was truly unexpected and truly epic storytelling. The filmmakers really took risks and created something special.

  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited September 2023 Posts: 693
    Am really missing something about SF, I dont find it exciting or involving at all!

    I think people get taken in by the cinematography and long shots of characters looking wistfully out of windows. I was constantly checking my watch when I saw it in the theater, something I didn't do for CR or QOS.
  • Posts: 1,986
    There's a lot to like about SF, but not everything works for me. I don't like the thing with Silva's teeth or the tube crash, which feels straight out of a Universal Studios tour.
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 1,101
    I know and agree with most of you that a period Bond film would be a bad idea, but i kinda want the next Bond to have some sort of Neo-Vintage look to it (classic with some touches of modern).
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,789
    peter wrote: »
    And I found the action to be more enthralling in SF. I certainly feel the climax at Skyfall is more effective than the unnecessary sinking house shoot out in CR.

    I agree. I preferred the ending in the novel to the sinking house. It was incredibly simple, yet effective.

    That was a Haggis re-write.

    I don’t mind the sinking house, and I understand why he made the decision (P&W’s ending was very, very similar to the novel’s conclusion).

    I didn’t know Haggis was responsible for that. I don’t mind the sequence per se, and I see why they would include it. It’s a Bond movie, you need to have the big “3rd Act” Set Piece to cap the movie off, and I still remember clear as day from when I first watched it in theaters back in 06, and being blown away by it. It’s still wonderfully shot and edited, and Craig is just a beast in that entire scene. But then when I read Fleming’s novel for the first time, I was taken back by how emotional I was reading those final passages, and ever since then I’ve preferred the somber ending of the novel.

    BTW is there a copy of P&W’s initial drafts for Casino Royale online? After reading ‘Some Kind of Hero’, I’d love to read some of those drafts if they are available.

    I wholeheartedly agree with this.
    It's one of my gripes with CR.

    The book's ending was really emotional and cathartic, leaving readers gut punched and speechless, there's Bond who found Vesper's corpse (like she's sleeping) and she left a letter to him and there's Bond, alone with mixed feelings along with a quiet atmosphere, that we readers feel nothing but sadness and devastation, we feel Bond's grief and his anger and regret, very introspective.

    Another gripe that I also have in the film's third act was the action scenes in that scene was unnecessary, stealing away the supposed emotion to excitement, and the way they've made Vesper's death in the film felt like a scene from a horror film with her look in that sinking elevator scene.

    If I compare Vesper's death with Tracy's death (in the films), it's not on par when it comes to emotional impact, Tracy's death is still the saddest moment in the whole series, the second was M's death in SF.

    It's just made of taking away the emotional atmosphere for the aesthetic quality like the cinematography.

    Well, to be fair, the romance of Bond and Vesper also for me hits more harder in the novel than in the film.

    Sometimes, being bombastic doesn't make for a film's emotional impact, sometimes you need to keep it just quiet and simple to feel the supposed emotion more (look at Bond's death in NTTD, for example, too bombastic and grand).

    Actually in all of the deaths in the Craig Era, it's only M's death that affected me emotionally, the rest.....
    I know and agree with most of you that a period Bond film would be a bad idea, but i kinda want the next Bond to have some sort of Neo-Vintage look to it (classic with some touches of modern).

    I think they've done this a bit in Skyfall in the Macau Casino scenes (except the CGI Dragon), but there's a classical touch into it, especially in the scene where Bond meets Severine, there's a vintage look into it.
    You have the Casino playing at the background while Bond and Severine are having conversation.
  • Posts: 1,986
    As one of my favorite Bond films, CR ends with a bit of a disappointment. Eva Green is a spectacular Vesper, yet the film's climax seems to betray her. She becomes an appendage to a collapsing house. As has been pointed out the elevator drowning scene feels at odds with what we've seen previously. I don't feel the big set piece was necessary. Her body laid out like a dead fish seems less sad than weird. Over the years screenplays have sometimes improved some of Fleming's scenes. But how we get from betrayal and suicide to a collapsing house is a puzzler.



  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    https://variety.com/2023/biz/news/wga-resumes-bargaining-ceos-record-1235729779/

    Looks like the Writers and the studios are in the same room again, at least..
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    peter wrote: »
    And I found the action to be more enthralling in SF. I certainly feel the climax at Skyfall is more effective than the unnecessary sinking house shoot out in CR.

    I agree. I preferred the ending in the novel to the sinking house. It was incredibly simple, yet effective.

    That was a Haggis re-write.

    I don’t mind the sinking house, and I understand why he made the decision (P&W’s ending was very, very similar to the novel’s conclusion).

    I didn’t know Haggis was responsible for that. I don’t mind the sequence per se, and I see why they would include it. It’s a Bond movie, you need to have the big “3rd Act” Set Piece to cap the movie off

    That must’ve been the thinking, and yet I think you can feel movie doesn’t want it: it’s actually getting in the way of the more interesting and shocking betrayal by Vesper.
    I think Mission Impossible Rogue Nation is a good example of a big action film that knew that it didn’t need a big action climax.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I'm an action junkie but I'd be there day one for a stripped back spy thriller. I don't think we'll get one of those ever again, or at least not for a very long time, but I'd love to see another DN-type feature.

    I'm with you. Action done well is always a treat, but Bond isn't an "action hero" necessarily. Action can also be "compartmentalized". Take HEAT: not exactly "action porn", but a film with a handful of nearly perfect action scenes in it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Would you want less action than Skyfall had? Because it didn't have very much.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I’d love more movies like SKYFALL where there was more emphasis on suspense and intrigue. CR was pretty close to that, it was just one action sequence too many (sinking house). And then QOS unfortunately doubled the amount of action.
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 579
    https://variety.com/2023/biz/news/wga-resumes-bargaining-ceos-record-1235729779/

    Looks like the Writers and the studios are in the same room again, at least..
    Great news! I am now predicting that the director of Bond 26 will be announced by the end of March 2024.
  • Posts: 4,139
    CrabKey wrote: »
    As one of my favorite Bond films, CR ends with a bit of a disappointment. Eva Green is a spectacular Vesper, yet the film's climax seems to betray her. She becomes an appendage to a collapsing house. As has been pointed out the elevator drowning scene feels at odds with what we've seen previously. I don't feel the big set piece was necessary. Her body laid out like a dead fish seems less sad than weird. Over the years screenplays have sometimes improved some of Fleming's scenes. But how we get from betrayal and suicide to a collapsing house is a puzzler.



    I suppose a more faithful adaptation of the novel’s ending could potentially have felt anti-climactic to most audiences. As much as I’m on the fence about the sinking house and can definitely understand how it gets in the way of the drama for many, I can see why they went with it for the film they were making. It does feel like the film is building towards that sort of big climax, and unfortunately the novel doesn’t provide that.
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I'm an action junkie but I'd be there day one for a stripped back spy thriller. I don't think we'll get one of those ever again, or at least not for a very long time, but I'd love to see another DN-type feature.

    I'm with you. Action done well is always a treat, but Bond isn't an "action hero" necessarily. Action can also be "compartmentalized". Take HEAT: not exactly "action porn", but a film with a handful of nearly perfect action scenes in it.

    It would make sense if Bond 26 were more stripped back and perhaps more along the lines of DN, FRWL or even SF. Usually the bigger Bond films tend to come mid-way into the actor’s tenure. The priority is creating a gripping story that reintroduces Bond and establishes the actor’s portrayal. I mean, I’m not sure if I’d personally want a big budgeted epic Bond film so soon after NTTD.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    007HallY wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    As one of my favorite Bond films, CR ends with a bit of a disappointment. Eva Green is a spectacular Vesper, yet the film's climax seems to betray her. She becomes an appendage to a collapsing house. As has been pointed out the elevator drowning scene feels at odds with what we've seen previously. I don't feel the big set piece was necessary. Her body laid out like a dead fish seems less sad than weird. Over the years screenplays have sometimes improved some of Fleming's scenes. But how we get from betrayal and suicide to a collapsing house is a puzzler.



    I suppose a more faithful adaptation of the novel’s ending could potentially have felt anti-climactic to most audiences. As much as I’m on the fence about the sinking house and can definitely understand how it gets in the way of the drama for many, I can see why they went with it for the film they were making. It does feel like the film is building towards that sort of big climax, and unfortunately the novel doesn’t provide that.

    But that third act was about the conclusion regarding the emotional impact that Vesper's death should have, it worked so much in the book, that's the main point of the story, but it's all forgotten when something ticked their mind that they need an action sequence, they've forgotten the story and what the story supposed to deliver towards the audiences.

    Is it anti-climactic, sure for those who don't care about the story and more about the action, but for those who care for the story, that action scenes deflated the emotional atmosphere that Vesper's death should have.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Yeah I tend to agree; when Bond learns that she hasn't gone to the bank and pursues her though Venice, we want to know what she's doing, what will happen to their relationship. It's a big dramatic climax. And then some fairly average shooty fighty stuff starts happening and just gets in the way of it.
  • Posts: 4,139
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    As one of my favorite Bond films, CR ends with a bit of a disappointment. Eva Green is a spectacular Vesper, yet the film's climax seems to betray her. She becomes an appendage to a collapsing house. As has been pointed out the elevator drowning scene feels at odds with what we've seen previously. I don't feel the big set piece was necessary. Her body laid out like a dead fish seems less sad than weird. Over the years screenplays have sometimes improved some of Fleming's scenes. But how we get from betrayal and suicide to a collapsing house is a puzzler.



    I suppose a more faithful adaptation of the novel’s ending could potentially have felt anti-climactic to most audiences. As much as I’m on the fence about the sinking house and can definitely understand how it gets in the way of the drama for many, I can see why they went with it for the film they were making. It does feel like the film is building towards that sort of big climax, and unfortunately the novel doesn’t provide that.

    But that third act was about the conclusion regarding the emotional impact that Vesper's death should have, it worked so much in the book, that's the main point of the story, but it's all forgotten when something ticked their mind that they need an action sequence, they've forgotten the story and what the story supposed to deliver towards the audiences.

    Is it anti-climactic, sure for those who don't care about the story and more about the action, but for those who care for the story, that action scenes deflated the emotional atmosphere that Vesper's death should have.

    Like I said it’s something I’m mixed about myself so it’s a bit tricky for me to defend it as such. But I can definitely see why it was included.

    It’s worth saying that film and books can be very different mediums, and it’s especially true with Bond, and indeed a novel like CR. In adaptation CR was made much more elaborate than the relatively low key, drama heavy novel. We saw scenes such as Bond thwarting a terrorist bombing, chasing villains, his heart stopping after getting poisoned etc. This isn’t a bad thing. For a film these more action/visually orientated sequences are arguably more appropriate to the medium and a film of its kind.

    Really, you kind of need a climax for a Bond film. It’s pretty much expected by the audience based on the pattern CR established. So we were always going to get a sequence of some kind for Vesper’s death, whether it was a chase or a sinking house. I know it’s a scene some us fans dislike, but regardless I know many people who are emotionally impacted by Vesper’s death in this film, so it works on some level to at least a portion of its audience. But again, I’m mixed on it myself so….
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2023 Posts: 16,383
    I think perhaps they needed to foreground Vesper in that final scene, whatever it would have been. An element of action, or perhaps a tense confrontation; but as it was it feels like the most important bit of story gets shunted aside for a slightly rote Brosnan-style action climax.
    I think if you compared to Skyfall perhaps, we have a climax in the chapel that works perfectly for the rest of the movie and isn't a big stunt. Yes there's some action beforehand but it all works in harmony with the rest of the film more for my money.

    I like CR a lot like most folk and I think it's one of the very best Bonds, but Skyfall always feels the more considered and coherent piece of work for me. Yes there's some plot holes if you look too hard, but I find the finished product is a very slick and stylish and perfectly weighted and streamlined film, where CR is a bit messy and craggy and ugly from certain angles, with stuff bolted on here and there, and hangovers from the Brosnan films still sticking up.
  • Posts: 4,139
    mtm wrote: »
    I think perhaps they needed to foreground Vesper in that final scene, whatever it would have been. An element of action, or perhaps a tense confrontation; but as it was it feels like the most important bit of story gets shunted aside for a slightly rote Brosnan-style action climax.
    I think if you compared to Skyfall perhaps, we have a climax in the chapel that works perfectly for the rest of the movie and isn't a big stunt. Yes there's some action beforehand but it all works in harmony with the rest of the film more for my money.

    I like CR a lot like most folk and I think it's one of the very best Bonds, but Skyfall always feels the more considered and coherent piece of work for me. Yes there's some plot holes if you look too hard, but I find the finished product is a very slick and stylish and perfectly weighted and streamlined film, where CR is a bit messy and craggy and ugly from certain angles, with stuff bolted on here and there, and hangovers from the Brosnan films still sticking up.

    I do agree that SF feels a lot more coherent. I never really understood the criticism that it has plot holes - CR does as well. Neither takes me out of the movie. I’d argue the script for SF is a lot stronger (the dialogue in CR can be pretty weird as we’ve mentioned in the past).
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    It's not the shootout at the collapsing house I object to so much as Vesper's choosing of a fairly horrible-looking death by drowning whilst her lover looks on helpless, as opposed to the original ending of Vesper choosing to end her life painlessly with dignity rather than face Bond and the consequences of her actions. What we see in the film makes little sense to me, and I think there were better ways of doing it, at least as far as I'm concerned.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,135
    mtm wrote: »
    Would you want less action than Skyfall had? Because it didn't have very much.

    I'd rather we went all the way back to films like DN or FRWL
    Not a remake or period piece, but a story that is thrilling. The action happens because the story warrants it.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    It's not the shootout at the collapsing house I object to so much as Vesper's choosing of a fairly horrible-looking death by drowning whilst her lover looks on helpless, as opposed to the original ending of Vesper choosing to end her life painlessly with dignity rather than face Bond and the consequences of her actions. What we see in the film makes little sense to me, and I think there were better ways of doing it, at least as far as I'm concerned.

    I respectfully disagree. I like that Vesper gets one last moment with Bond underwater before her death. It's much more cinematic than the novel.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I think the action needs to be more memorable, in NTTD there were some wonderful stunts, but they didn't up the stakes enough in certain moments I thought, like I've suggested it before but Bond could have been getting chased before the bike jump in Matera.

    I don't want a lot less action, but I'd love more suspense, like everyone has said.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,152
    Haggis revised the CR script and then apparently said to BB 'You don't have a third act - would you like one?' and that's when the sinking house came into it. The Bourne Identity originally had a low-key ending with Bourne just walking away into the night after he'd warned Conklin to leave him be. Doug Liman wanted to confound audience expectations of a climactic struggle, but test audiences didn't like it, so they created the whole section with the fight and shootout to get out of the Treadstone safe house. I'd imagine that Haggis and EON thought that a Bond cinema audience would similarly prefer an action sequence to the more low-key ending from the book. I see why they did it. And it meant more Eva Green - so I'm for the sinking house, man!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    Seriously, more Eva Green is never a bad thing.

    Those are the spinoffs I'd want to see: Vesper, the early years, or even Tracy, the wild years.

    It's a testament to how indelible both actresses are/were to the franchise.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,789
    Looking at the death scenes in the Craig Era (they're all bombastic and grand):

    Vesper's death involved a fight scene with Bond against the Quantum Agents, a sinking house, Vesper's drowning, grand, bombastic.

    Actually, even M's death in Skyfall do have some grandioseness in it with the whole attack on Bond's house with Silva in the helicopter and all (explosions, fight scenes, and shootouts), that it led to M's death in the Chapel.

    Then here comes NTTD, with Bond, again, having this big time, grand death scene, with a shootout, a fight with Primo, then a confrontation with Safin, closing the silo doors, and infecting him with nanobots, before killing him with a rain of missiles, bombastic.

    Imagine what the ending of OHMSS would've looked like if filmed in this day: for sure it would also be grand, maybe Blofeld and SPECTRE would go and attack Bond's wedding, Blofeld and Bond would fight mano-a-mano, then the Unione Corse and Draco against Irma Bunt and the other SPECTRE agents but Irma Bunt would've been killed by Draco, then Bond would beat Blofeld to the ground, until Blofeld (in his frustration) would aim up a gun but Tracy saw this and she would be shot instead to cover Bond, Bond got angry and shot Blofeld dead.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,152
    I did have a sneaking fear at first that the sheer extent of the overkill in Bond's death in NTTD was going to be parodied mercilessly, with comedy skits where more and more unlikely disasters were lobbed at him followed by 'tis but a scratch!' and 'it's just a flesh wound!'-type quips, etc. We're probably past the window for that now - thankfully!
  • Agent0099Agent0099 Milford, Michigan
    Posts: 29
    echo wrote: »
    Seriously, more Eva Green is never a bad thing.

    Those are the spinoffs I'd want to see: Vesper, the early years, or even Tracy, the wild years.

    It's a testament to how indelible both actresses are/were to the franchise.

    Honestly I would have loved to see flashbacks and additional footage of Eva Green, Particularly in Spectre when bond finds the interrogation video tape of vesper in Mr White's secret room. And yes a series with Diana Rigg would have been amazing!!
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,152
    Eva was going to be in QOS at first - Barbara Broccoli not only told her that she was going to be in it, but EON actually paid her a retainer to keep the time free. Vesper was supposed to be 'haunting Bond' in dreams and nightmares, he was going to think he saw her out of the corner of his eye, etc. Then Marc Forster came on board and just went 'nah' and that was the end of that idea!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    I didn't know that, that's very interesting. Glad they nixed it; sounds a bit naff!
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