Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    When you write on assignment, you don’t create in a vacuum. The producers and creatives work together to create the story that best fits what the producers want to bring to market.
    Yes indeed, and we know that there are specific story elements which have come not from them. On ajb recently I saw P&W being criticised for the parasurfing from DAD and the Blofeld foster brother thing: elements which Lee Tamahori and Michael Wilson have been specifically credited for coming up with respectively. It's become a bit of a repeated meme that P&W are bad, but I'm not quite sure if that's always based in what's actually happened.
    Something like TMWTGG I would say is far more of a mess of a script than anything P&W have overseen.

    Really? TMWTGG script is fine.

    If P&W wrote a script about the world's greatest assassin which for some reason turned into a story about an irrelevant gadget and an empty power station, and featured no assassinations whatsoever; in which the Bond girl being an idiot drove the last act; in which Bond went to Beirut to get a bullet despite literally being mailed one in the previous scene, and in which he gets left behind by his ally when he comes to rescue him because he just drives off; we'd never hear the end of how bad they are. It's not tied together and characters have to be stupid to make the plot work.

    Well, they wrote Skyfall in which Bond being an idiot drove the last act.

    How does this track?
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    When you write on assignment, you don’t create in a vacuum. The producers and creatives work together to create the story that best fits what the producers want to bring to market.
    Yes indeed, and we know that there are specific story elements which have come not from them. On ajb recently I saw P&W being criticised for the parasurfing from DAD and the Blofeld foster brother thing: elements which Lee Tamahori and Michael Wilson have been specifically credited for coming up with respectively. It's become a bit of a repeated meme that P&W are bad, but I'm not quite sure if that's always based in what's actually happened.
    Something like TMWTGG I would say is far more of a mess of a script than anything P&W have overseen.

    Really? TMWTGG script is fine.

    If P&W wrote a script about the world's greatest assassin which for some reason turned into a story about an irrelevant gadget and an empty power station, and featured no assassinations whatsoever; in which the Bond girl being an idiot drove the last act; in which Bond went to Beirut to get a bullet despite literally being mailed one in the previous scene, and in which he gets left behind by his ally when he comes to rescue him because he just drives off; we'd never hear the end of how bad they are. It's not tied together and characters have to be stupid to make the plot work.

    Well, they wrote Skyfall in which Bond being an idiot drove the last act.

    How does this track?

    I’m often confused by what this person posts, 🤷‍♂️…
  • edited January 8 Posts: 4,164
    I suppose they mean that during the third act of SF Bond’s decision to go ‘off grid’ and lure Silva to Scotland using M gets her killed, ultimately meaning Bond ‘fails’ in a sense…

    I mean, not really sure how any of that is bad writing though. If anything it shows a good understanding of the type of decisions Bond makes as a character, both in the films and especially the Fleming novels (he’s not an overly elaborate tactical agent who’s always three steps ahead like an Ethan Hunt, Jack Reacher, or even Jason Bourne - often times he’s prone to making quite bold, sudden, or even rash decisions, often in order to simply move things along or put him and the villain on an even playing field). That and M dying is pretty significant from a story perspective, and it’s very much a character driven final act as well… ironically I’m not even sure if the last act was even a P&W idea or fully written by them anyway… so yeah, not sure how it’s a negative in terms of writing beyond personal dislike.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    If I knew more about what P&W did on each film in the Daniel era, I think it'd be easier to be for or against them.

    I think I'd like them to be involved, but they seem to be much stronger writers when a Haggis or Logan is lighting a fire under them, so to speak. They know Fleming, which is vital in my opinion.

    I do hope Bond 26 and the next era is not as self-referential in general. I don't know whether that's Purvis and Wade, producers or whoever but I think they need to a sense of freshness to proceedings, while retaining that Bondian essence.
    Make new iconic moments not redo past ones.
  • Posts: 1,368
    007HallY wrote: »
    I suppose they mean that during the third act of SF Bond’s decision to go ‘off grid’ and lure Silva to Scotland using M gets her killed, ultimately meaning Bond ‘fails’ in a sense…

    I mean, not really sure how any of that is bad writing though. If anything it shows a good understanding of the type of decisions Bond makes as a character, both in the films and especially the Fleming novels (he’s not an overly elaborate tactical agent who’s always three steps ahead - often times he’s prone to making quite bold, sudden, or even rash decisions, often in order to simply move things along or put him and the villain on an even playing field). That and M dying is pretty significant from a story perspective, and it’s very much a character driven final act as well… so yeah, not sure how it’s a negative in terms of writing beyond personal dislike.

    You can say the same about TMWTGG. ;)
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    007HallY wrote: »
    I suppose they mean that during the third act of SF Bond’s decision to go ‘off grid’ and lure Silva to Scotland using M gets her killed, ultimately meaning Bond ‘fails’ in a sense…

    I mean, not really sure how any of that is bad writing though. If anything it shows a good understanding of the type of decisions Bond makes as a character, both in the films and especially the Fleming novels (he’s not an overly elaborate tactical agent who’s always three steps ahead - often times he’s prone to making quite bold, sudden, or even rash decisions, often in order to simply move things along or put him and the villain on an even playing field). That and M dying is pretty significant from a story perspective, and it’s very much a character driven final act as well… so yeah, not sure how it’s a negative in terms of writing beyond personal dislike.

    You can say the same about TMWTGG. ;)

    You can, but you'd be wrong.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,415
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    If I knew more about what P&W did on each film in the Daniel era, I think it'd be easier to be for or against them.

    I think I'd like them to be involved, but they seem to be much stronger writers when a Haggis or Logan is lighting a fire under them, so to speak. They know Fleming, which is vital in my opinion.

    I think that's fair, but it also makes sense: you would certainly hope that bringing other writers' contributions would strengthen any script rather than weaken it.
  • Posts: 4,164
    007HallY wrote: »
    I suppose they mean that during the third act of SF Bond’s decision to go ‘off grid’ and lure Silva to Scotland using M gets her killed, ultimately meaning Bond ‘fails’ in a sense…

    I mean, not really sure how any of that is bad writing though. If anything it shows a good understanding of the type of decisions Bond makes as a character, both in the films and especially the Fleming novels (he’s not an overly elaborate tactical agent who’s always three steps ahead - often times he’s prone to making quite bold, sudden, or even rash decisions, often in order to simply move things along or put him and the villain on an even playing field). That and M dying is pretty significant from a story perspective, and it’s very much a character driven final act as well… so yeah, not sure how it’s a negative in terms of writing beyond personal dislike.

    You can say the same about TMWTGG. ;)

    You can do, and honestly I actually like the conversation Bond and Scaramanga have at the lunch table. The duel in the fun house is a great idea too.

    I think the issues with it for me are that the Solex never feels very weighty as a McGuffin, neither in terms of what it actually does (not always a problem mind) nor in terms of how characters react to it. Scaramanga uses it for a relatively primitive laser and claims he’s not much of a scientist. It’s of limited interest to him and provides no additional stakes because he’s going to do nothing consequential with it. Once Bond kills him the film becomes a bit boring with him simply needing to retrieve it (there’s an arbitrary countdown that Bond comes up with to the base exploding I suppose, but it never feels very weighty) and Goodnight’s comedic bumbling is used to put some sort of significant obstacle in Bond’s way. You then get a very odd final scene with Nick Nack (a henchman so overtly mismatched against Bond and one who in this scenario is given no significant advantage) played for laughs because it’s so low stakes.

    It’s a film with some cool ideas, but the writing lets it down in my opinion.
  • Posts: 1,368
    007HallY wrote: »
    I suppose they mean that during the third act of SF Bond’s decision to go ‘off grid’ and lure Silva to Scotland using M gets her killed, ultimately meaning Bond ‘fails’ in a sense…

    I mean, not really sure how any of that is bad writing though. If anything it shows a good understanding of the type of decisions Bond makes as a character, both in the films and especially the Fleming novels (he’s not an overly elaborate tactical agent who’s always three steps ahead - often times he’s prone to making quite bold, sudden, or even rash decisions, often in order to simply move things along or put him and the villain on an even playing field). That and M dying is pretty significant from a story perspective, and it’s very much a character driven final act as well… so yeah, not sure how it’s a negative in terms of writing beyond personal dislike.

    You can say the same about TMWTGG. ;)

    You can, but you'd be wrong.

    No, it's the same!

    Everybody is stupid in Sykfall. M, Bond, Moneypeny, Q...

    And the Macguffin is useless too!


  • edited January 8 Posts: 4,164
    007HallY wrote: »
    I suppose they mean that during the third act of SF Bond’s decision to go ‘off grid’ and lure Silva to Scotland using M gets her killed, ultimately meaning Bond ‘fails’ in a sense…

    I mean, not really sure how any of that is bad writing though. If anything it shows a good understanding of the type of decisions Bond makes as a character, both in the films and especially the Fleming novels (he’s not an overly elaborate tactical agent who’s always three steps ahead - often times he’s prone to making quite bold, sudden, or even rash decisions, often in order to simply move things along or put him and the villain on an even playing field). That and M dying is pretty significant from a story perspective, and it’s very much a character driven final act as well… so yeah, not sure how it’s a negative in terms of writing beyond personal dislike.

    You can say the same about TMWTGG. ;)

    You can, but you'd be wrong.

    No, it's the same!

    Everybody is stupid in Sykfall. M, Bond, Moneypeny, Q...

    And the Macguffin is useless too!


    There’s a difference there too. We actually learn the consequences of the list being leaked, and it adds to M’s conflict/character. We’ve seen one agent die during the PTS as well as Bond and M’s reaction to it. We get a sense that lives are at stake.

    Another difference is SF prioritises story and character slightly over the dry mechanics of plot, so once the list is leaked/it stops fuelling what characters do it’s dropped. Honestly, it’s a good decision as by that point we’re on the way to learning who Silva is/his past with M. The Solex just grinds the film to a halt during the climax of TMWTGG for me.
  • Bentley007Bentley007 Manitoba, Canada
    Posts: 575
    Have Purvis and Wade been confirmed as writing for Bond 26? I am curious or have EON even settled on the direction they want to take Bond next?

    It seems like this may be the case and I just missed the subtle confirmation. I still thought EON were in the creatuve direction stage and not at script writing.
  • Red_SnowRed_Snow Australia
    Posts: 2,539
    peter wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    I am curious whether we get a break from P&W finaly

    I don’t think so @jobo … Last I heard was that the two writers would at least be used to get ideas and outlines and maybe even a first draft.

    Other writers will be hired.

    But at least late last year, I even think Barbara and Michael both stated they would discuss ideas to their long-term writers first.

    But, rest assured, other doctors will be brought on to punch-up the script and polish the shooting draft (and then on set there’ll be more organic rewrites).

    I don’t understand why people don’t like these two? We’ve probably never read one of their unedited, un-script-doctored scripts before. Probably anything of theirs that we’ve read had already gone through at least script notes from the producers; or at least I’ve never had the opportunity to read one of their untouched drafts before …

    Purvis and Wade were interviewed on BBC Radio 4 in December and said they don't know what's happening with Bond 26.

    “We don’t know, we’ve not talked to the producers about it. In fact, when we see them, it’s the one thing we don’t talk about. They’ve kind of been thinking of other things a bit.”

    However, at the end of the interview with Dr. Nicola Fox (Head of Science at NASA) Purvis and Wade said, “If Bond ever goes into space again, we’ll come and pick your brains about it all.”

    I think they were just speaking generally and doesn't necessarily mean anything, but they do sort of contradict themselves at the end there.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    Have Purvis and Wade been confirmed as writing for Bond 26? I am curious or have EON even settled on the direction they want to take Bond next?

    It seems like this may be the case and I just missed the subtle confirmation. I still thought EON were in the creatuve direction stage and not at script writing.

    I would guess you're right on your assumption that no script has been written.

    But I find it hard to believe what P and W said in that interview. After all, if they have been working with EoN on ideas for direction and stories, are they going to admit that they are, and invite all kinds of queries?

    Or, as is probably the case (if they're chatting with EoN), they've signed an NDA. In other words, they're legally bound to keep their mouths shut.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited January 8 Posts: 3,152
    P & W used elements of TMWTGG so well in SF (the villains plan to get hold of a particular device; a bullet leads Bond on the trail an assassin; Bond sleeps with the villains' lovers; the women have come to hate the villains and hope that Bond will kill them, but they die at the hands of the villains instead; even the private islands) that it took a while for it to dawn on a lot of people just what they'd done. I can't remember any media piece at the time that pulled them up on it. There must be scope for similar re-workings, rather than overt adaptations, no? Although it was pretty bad writing to have Kincade implausibly use a torch to find the path to the chapel, tbf...
  • Posts: 1,368
    Venutius wrote: »
    P & W used elements of TMWTGG so well in SF (the villains plan to get hold of a particular device; a bullet leads Bond on the trail an assassin; Bond sleeps with the villains' lovers; the women have come to hate the villains and hope that Bond will kill them, but they die at the hands of the villains instead; even the private islands) that it took a while for it to dawn on a lot of people just what they'd done. I can't remember any media piece at the time that pulled them up on it. There must be scope for similar re-workings, rather than overt adaptations, no? Although it was pretty bad writing to have Kincade implausibly use a torch to find the path to the chapel, tbf...

    And Moneypenny is Mary Goodnight!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    @DEKE_RIVERS
    You only type out one- or two-sentence opinions, rarely an actual argument or a more fleshed-out explanation. Others compose full comments, you answer with "x is bad" or "so-and-so was done wrong." You are becoming a broken record. If you want to participate, please deliver more than just your opinion pretending it is objective truth. Thank you.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I do hope Bond 26 and the next era is not as self-referential in general. I don't know whether that's Purvis and Wade, producers or whoever but I think they need to a sense of freshness to proceedings, while retaining that Bondian essence. Make new iconic moments not redo past ones.

    Amen to this. I am so tired of the umpteenth "Honey coming out of the ocean" and "Jill getting killed in gold" reference. (I could also do without the Aston Martin--YMMV.)

    Give us new and exciting iconic moments!
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,047
    NTTD had flashes of outlandisness. I think whatever P & W come up with, a bit of outlandishness is going to creep into Bond 26.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited January 8 Posts: 6,304
    I know but I kind of licked liked the eyeball.

    Fleming did it too. Scaramanga eating the snake comes to mind.
  • Posts: 1,368
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @DEKE_RIVERS
    You only type out one- or two-sentence opinions, rarely an actual argument or a more fleshed-out explanation. Others compose full comments, you answer with "x is bad" or "so-and-so was done wrong." You are becoming a broken record. If you want to participate, please deliver more than just your opinion pretending it is objective truth. Thank you.

    My opinion is my opinion. I don't need to say this. It's obvious.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited January 8 Posts: 3,152
    Yeah, but it can be interesting to see how someone's formed their opinions, what's led them to that conclusion, etc. There's been plenty of times where I've got a new perspective on something from a post on here, because someone's thought of something in a way that hadn't even occurred to me. It's one of the things I really like about this place.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @DEKE_RIVERS
    You only type out one- or two-sentence opinions, rarely an actual argument or a more fleshed-out explanation. Others compose full comments, you answer with "x is bad" or "so-and-so was done wrong." You are becoming a broken record. If you want to participate, please deliver more than just your opinion pretending it is objective truth. Thank you.

    My opinion is my opinion. I don't need to say this. It's obvious.

    That's three sentences, which is a good start.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    The fact that Broccoli and Nolan were in talks tells us even bigger news: Eon is actually talking with directors now.
  • mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Even the early film took liberties with the original books though (GF is, in my honest opinion, a much better film because of the changes it made in adaptation).

    I love that when they adapted OHMSS, they kept the opening scenes in the same order as the novel, despite those being a flashback in the book. They removed the flashback element and made it linear and pretty much nothing changed! :)

    007HallY wrote: »
    The continuation novels are in the same boat really, and are in my opinion all of lower quality than the Fleming books. Colonel Sun has even had scraps of it make its way into the films. Maybe they could do something similar with some of the stronger novels (ie. only use specific ideas) but I’d argue overall the more interesting things about even the Horowitz novels had already been done in the Craig films. So they wouldn’t benefit from being adapted fully. Personally, I’d take any of the recent original scripts over any Bond continuation novel.

    Yes, I enjoy the novels, but I don't think you'll find one with ideas as strong as the recent films. Something like Skyfall or even Spectre actually take Bond to new places and have coherent themes; TWINE is a pretty bold story with lots of new elements. The Horowitzs are great fun but I'm not sure they're pushing any boundaries: something like Trigger Mortis is (intentionally I think, to be fair) a pretty standard Bond adventure story.

    Don't know about that. Nobody Lives Forever is a completely different story to anything we've gotten because it's a story with Bond on the defensive. No Deals Mr. Bond is an espionage thriller that goes beyond the simply smuggling/money/Macguffin theme that others like TLD, OP and FYEO have. In that story Bond is trying to save British human assets, except is one is a traitor. And out of Benson's work there is High Time to Kill: we've seen Bond go down mountains but never up one. A rush between Bond and other agents up a mountain to find a MacGuffin is a pretty well done bog-standard Bond plot we've never seen before.
  • Posts: 1,368
    With a novel you have a basic plot, characters, the title. They can add action or whatever they need. It worked with Casino Royale.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,415
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yeah, but it can be interesting to see how someone's formed their opinions, what's led them to that conclusion, etc. There's been plenty of times where I've got a new perspective on something from a post on here, because someone's thought of something in a way that hadn't even occurred to me. It's one of the things I really like about this place.

    Yes agreed, I also can't have a conversation with someone who just states their opinion as a fact (always a contrary one, funnily enough) and gives no reasoning. So I don't ;)
    The fact that Broccoli and Nolan were in talks tells us even bigger news: Eon is actually talking with directors now.

    Is it a fact though?
  • Posts: 7,507
    The fact that Broccoli and Nolan were in talks tells us even bigger news: Eon is actually talking with directors now.

    Is it a fact though?[/quote]

    I hope it's fact but I suspect it's not.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,216
    While they may have had informal conversations years ago, there is still nothing that confirms that Nolan and EoN were/are recently in talks; it is possible that questionable sources are being given too much credibility

    On the other hand, Nolan may have presented an Idea, and with the help of his brother, the first draft of a script. Contracts have been signed and they are waiting for the right time to announce. 😉
  • In fact, plenty of continuation (and Fleming) plots and plot elements are still available:
    1. Nazi/illegal gold being sold and Bond investigating (OP and LALD)
    2. Bond being brainwashed and trying to kill M (TMWTGG)
    3. Nuclear station meltdown (although this isn't too different to what we've seen) (LR)
    4. Bond with a Russian agent (or any other nationality) who doublecrosses him (IB)
    5. Forced nuclear disarmament of a nation/of the world (RoH)
    6. The already mentioned NLF, HTTK and NDMB
    7. Bond suffering from an illness that makes him unable to trust himself (DS)
    8. Bond pretending to be brainwashed to get back at the villains (WAMTK)
  • edited January 8 Posts: 2,161
    Has there been any specific piece of any continuation novel directly lifted and put in an EON film, aside from COLONEL SUN? I mean where there is no doubt to the source (as per CS).
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