Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • We need some news. Any news! Barbara, please feed the Bond News Machine!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 16 Posts: 16,413
    God, that last GHOSTBUSTERS was abysmal. I’m content to just pretend that never became a franchise after the first. Too many fans mythologize it when it was only ever supposed to be a farcical comedy for Murray to make sarcastic quips at Armageddon.

    Yes, I loved Ghostbusters as a kid, but there's never been any good argument for it being a film series (the cartoon I'll give a pass as I loved it!) and every instalment after 1984 has been worse and worse. But no.2 was at least a sequel to the first and tried to be of a kind with the first; Afterlife was fan service done very poorly in my opinion. In the original there's a nice joke about Egon collecting spores, mould and fungi; Afterlife seemed to think that showing us that collection made it funnier or something.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,216
    Nothing wrong with fan service; Picard was loaded with it.
  • edited January 16 Posts: 6,709
    talos7 wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with fan service; Picard was loaded with it.

    Yes, I find the diabolization of fan service to be diabolical, really. It works when they know their fans and fandom. When they feel they do and don’t, things go awry. And when they work against the fans it really shows and it creates ripples that go beyond the franchise and into political and economical treads.

    All and all, when they know their fans, fan service os wonderful. If they think fan service is past film referencing and homages, for example, it just doesn’t work as well.
  • edited January 16 Posts: 4,162
    I've actually not heard good things about Picard across the board, especially from people who like Star Trek. Can't really say one way or the other though (never watched any Star Trek beyond the recent movies).

    The only franchise/film I can currently think of that's 'reinvented' its character (so that's not a sequel or part of an existing superhero 'universe') while still maintaining a deference/understanding of the source material (and indeed subtle 'fan service') is probably The Batman, as much as I know not everyone loves that film.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,216
    007HallY wrote: »
    I've actually not heard good things about Picard across the board, especially from people who like Star Trek. Can't really say one way or the other though (never watched any Star Trek beyond the recent movies).

    The only franchise/film I can currently think of that's 'reinvented' its character (so that's not a sequel or part of an existing superhero 'universe') while still maintaining a deference/understanding of the source material (and indeed subtle 'fan service') is probably The Batman, as much as I know not everyone loves that film.

    I am a big fan of ST: Next Generation; Picard season 3 was incredible. It was an outstanding send off for that crew.
  • Posts: 4,162
    talos7 wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I've actually not heard good things about Picard across the board, especially from people who like Star Trek. Can't really say one way or the other though (never watched any Star Trek beyond the recent movies).

    The only franchise/film I can currently think of that's 'reinvented' its character (so that's not a sequel or part of an existing superhero 'universe') while still maintaining a deference/understanding of the source material (and indeed subtle 'fan service') is probably The Batman, as much as I know not everyone loves that film.

    I am a big fan of ST: Next Generation; Picard season 3 was incredible. It was an outstanding send off for that crew.

    The criticisms I've heard about Picard were broadly that it felt too bleak, and that a lot of the decisions weren't in line with the spirit of the original shows. Again, very much second hand stuff that I can't say anything about one way or the other, and I'm sure plenty have said the same about stuff I've liked and wouldn't agree with (including The Batman probably).
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    talos7 wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I've actually not heard good things about Picard across the board, especially from people who like Star Trek. Can't really say one way or the other though (never watched any Star Trek beyond the recent movies).

    The only franchise/film I can currently think of that's 'reinvented' its character (so that's not a sequel or part of an existing superhero 'universe') while still maintaining a deference/understanding of the source material (and indeed subtle 'fan service') is probably The Batman, as much as I know not everyone loves that film.

    I am a big fan of ST: Next Generation; Picard season 3 was incredible. It was an outstanding send off for that crew.

    I agree again with @talos7 …. I thought season one was … fine. I’m a sentimentalist, so
    I enjoyed seeing Picard, Data, Riker and Troi…. That was enough for me to tune into every episode. But I was underwhelmed …

    Season 2 was a hot mess. A steaming pile of hot mess…

    Season 3 was as perfect as I could have hoped and washed the other two seasons away… it was the first trek series, probably since TNG, where I was excited to watch each new episode. The entire team, from those in front of the camera, to those behind it, killed it. And, at least for this audience member, left me wanting more— which should always be the goal…
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 16 Posts: 16,413
    talos7 wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with fan service; Picard was loaded with it.

    I didn't say there was, but what I did say was that the fan service in Ghostbusters was poorly done. And you can certainly have too much of it.
    peter wrote: »
    Season 3 was as perfect as I could have hoped and washed the other two seasons away… it was the first trek series, probably since TNG, where I was excited to watch each new episode. The entire team, from those in front of the camera, to those behind it, killed it. And, at least for this audience member, left me wanting more— which should always be the goal…

    Yes it was tremendous, very exciting stuff. I would say that it fell away slightly towards the end when everything that you expected to happen started happening, and it perhaps felt slightly empty fan wish fulfilment at that point as a result (and let's not mention the post-credits scene), but it was still way more engaging than a dozen of those Star Wars series which cost ten times as much.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,216
    mtm wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with fan service; Picard was loaded with it.

    I didn't say there was, but what I did say was that the fan service in Ghostbusters was poorly done. And you can certainly have too much of it.

    And that is a valid opinion, even if I don’t agree. .
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I liked S3 of Picard, but that had nothing to do with the fan service, which I thought leaned a little too heavy at times, but that’s true even of the first two seasons.

    I think the most cringey was the return of that punk rocker from THE VOYAGE HOME. That bit felt overwritten.
  • Posts: 1,860
    I was hoping by now you guys would have some real news.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    We don’t even have fake news. :(
  • FeyadorFeyador Montreal, Canada
    Posts: 735
    The real news ... may be the 'real news' regarding the future of the Bond series.

    If 9-11 was in part a catalyst for a darker, more serious take on the character, than where are we now, in world rapidly escalating to a new Cold War full of proxies and the very real possibilities of direct conflict between the West and a loose alliance coalescing around China, Russia, Iran and North Korea?

    Does a new Bond reflect that or maybe just ignore it?

    Throw in the climate crisis, growing wealth disparity, inflation, etc. and the very real possibility of a crypto fascist becoming American president again ... and, well, you know, I don't see a reincarnation of Roger Moore stepping forward anytime soon.
  • Posts: 1,993
    I would much rather see a stripped down Bond adventure without the latest world crises and technology. A man alone relying on his wits would be a nice change. Maybe something he stumbles onto which doesn't need to involve MI6.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,138
    I like the stripped back idea, when they have no where to go, EON of old would sometimes go back to FRWL as the basis of the story.
    I’d like a spy thriller. Cloak and dagger stuff, with well written characters.
    It doesn’t have to be globetrotting or even overly action packed. Use Fleming as much as possible.
    Updating his novels for a modern time could be an idea.
  • edited January 17 Posts: 12,473
    Though I know it won't happen, I've long wanted something like DN or FRWL again with a bit less action and more of the detective work, character moments, buildup, etc. The Fleming novels are generally pretty sparing in the amount of action sequences, but it makes them all the more memorable and intense when they arrive, and I feel like the same can happen in movie form. But many people come to watch Bond movies for the spectacle aspect; there's no way they will be toning down the action much from Craig's era if at all.
  • Posts: 1,993
    No doubt, spectacle will remain. But a film can be a great adventure without ticking bombs and explosions. Bond blowing up SPECTRE properties makes wonder how the organization can afford to stay in business. I'd like to see more of the spy or secret agent than the demo man.
  • FeyadorFeyador Montreal, Canada
    Posts: 735
    The frequent need to top the last one has been a flaw in the series since ... oh, say, Thunderball.

    Sometimes the spectacle is sufficient, as it remains for me with TSWLM and MR, but that's probably a result of nostalgia in first seeing these as a child.

    Who is Bond after Craig, that's the difficult part. And how will we fans see him in relation to his antecedents? I don't think there's a default Bond that the series can just go back to. The Craig years may have been inconsistent, but anodyne in his representation he wasn't.

    I almost don't care about the iteration so long as a sharply-delineated character comes first, necessarily supported by a decent script ...
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I would much rather see a stripped down Bond adventure without the latest world crises and technology. A man alone relying on his wits would be a nice change. Maybe something he stumbles onto which doesn't need to involve MI6.

    Yep that sounds great for Bond 26. Sign me up
  • edited January 17 Posts: 1,368
    peter wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I can imagine Bond 26 running with the very broad story elements that we quintessentially think of as ‘the Bond formula’, more than the first three Craig films did. By this I mean I think we’ll be likely to get a Bond/M briefing scene in the MI6 office, Bond will in fact have gadgets, the Bond girl will in fact live to the end of the film etc.

    That said I think within that very broad framework they’ll do something different with it - subvert some sort of expectation, put a twist on something etc. Honestly, every Bond film does something different anyway using that foundation, even if the Craig films departed from some of it (ie. Every Bond film will have a villain, a set up to Bond’s mission, an ally of some sort even if it’s simply M, Bond girl etc, and at least one part of the usual fodder is there - the Bond theme, the ‘Bond, James Bond’, the gun barrel etc.)

    With a novel you don't need a "twist" . The book will give you enough stuff.

    Hey, @DEKE_RIVERS ... Uhm, I've adapted a novel, and the same producer of that project has hired me to adapt another novel (from the same author)... I'm genuinely asking you to join me in a conversation (in our DMs), about how utterly misguided your post was. I don't think you'll accept the invitation, but I am asking...

    From your comments about scripts aren't written to be read, to this latest about books providing "enough stuff", it sounds like you think whipping up a $200 million tentpole film is easy-peasy. I can assure you, putting together a half a million dollar contained film, is brutal, let alone a massive multi million dollar blockbuster.

    My DM's open and I'd be happy to chat further...

    where is the controversy? You are adapting novels and you're not the only one.

    It's very common. Why EON can't do that?

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Though I know it won't happen, I've long wanted something like DN or FRWL again with a bit less action and more of the detective work, character moments, buildup, etc. The Fleming novels are generally pretty sparing in the amount of action sequences, but it makes them all the more memorable and intense when they arrive, and I feel like the same can happen in movie form. But many people come to watch Bond movies for the spectacle aspect; there's no way they will be toning down the action much from Craig's era if at all.

    How much action is there in Skyfall though? Once you’re past the credits, what.. a fight in the skyscraper, a fight in the casino, a quick gunfight at the inquiry… and then you’re at the climax: it’s not exactly packed. Do you want less action than that?
  • Feyador wrote: »
    Does a new Bond reflect that or maybe just ignore it?
    The Bond film series has always reflected geopolitical crises and trends: classic east-west opposition during the 1960s; cooperation between blocs during détente; more positive representation of communist figures, particularly during the Andropov and Gorbachev years; dispersion of Soviet weapons after the fall of the USSR; political instability of the Russia in the 90s; international terrorism. Goldfinger and YOLT even had Communist China as a background villain, funding the main antagonists.

    The only exceptions would probably be Thunderball (even though the film plays on the fear of nuclear armageddon that has been top of mind since the Cuban Missile Crisis), OHMSS, DAF, LALD and Moonraker, the latter two reflecting the cinematic landscape more than the politics of that time. In any case, it is very rare that these films are made without reflecting the world in which they are produced (politically and culturally). In fact, it would be practically unprecedented for the series if Bond 26 did not reflect the world of the second half of the 2020s.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,045
    Yeah, I've always thought there isn't much action in SF. I think what Mendes did, was to craft the limited action with intense care, so they can be memorable. I for one, thought helicopters were going to chase Bond & M in the DB5 in Scotland. It explains why Mendes went all out action in SP, even if the climax wasn't strong.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    As far as the Michael/Barbara era goes, I think GE, CR, and SF actually had the correct amount of action set pieces. It’s with the rest of the movies that they seem to have felt they needed to crank things up.

    The worst was the TND/TWINE/DAD trifecta by Vic Armstrong that seemed to be way over-reliant on machine gun action. So it was a breath of fresh air when CR scaled down the action, though I suppose that’s a consequence of adapting a book that’s centered on a card game.

    I remember being worried when QOS was in production and it was apparent they were doubling on the amount of set pieces. And it turned out to have some of the worst action set pieces of the franchise. I think the only way one could actually enjoy the set pieces is if they’re accustomed to the shakycam and over-editing where camera shots only last a few frames.

    It’s absolutely insane to me how CR was done so well that Eon decided not to try replicating that success and keep that second unit, but instead allow Marc Forster to take Bourne’s second unit/editing team and just make a poor imitation of what Paul Greengrass was more adept at.

    When news broke that SF was bringing back Alexander Witt and Stuart Baird, it was music to my ears.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    The Brosnan films got a bit mechanical with their set pieces: each had to have the big third act action scene - tank/bike/caviar/aston
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    peter wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I can imagine Bond 26 running with the very broad story elements that we quintessentially think of as ‘the Bond formula’, more than the first three Craig films did. By this I mean I think we’ll be likely to get a Bond/M briefing scene in the MI6 office, Bond will in fact have gadgets, the Bond girl will in fact live to the end of the film etc.

    That said I think within that very broad framework they’ll do something different with it - subvert some sort of expectation, put a twist on something etc. Honestly, every Bond film does something different anyway using that foundation, even if the Craig films departed from some of it (ie. Every Bond film will have a villain, a set up to Bond’s mission, an ally of some sort even if it’s simply M, Bond girl etc, and at least one part of the usual fodder is there - the Bond theme, the ‘Bond, James Bond’, the gun barrel etc.)

    With a novel you don't need a "twist" . The book will give you enough stuff.

    Hey, @DEKE_RIVERS ... Uhm, I've adapted a novel, and the same producer of that project has hired me to adapt another novel (from the same author)... I'm genuinely asking you to join me in a conversation (in our DMs), about how utterly misguided your post was. I don't think you'll accept the invitation, but I am asking...

    From your comments about scripts aren't written to be read, to this latest about books providing "enough stuff", it sounds like you think whipping up a $200 million tentpole film is easy-peasy. I can assure you, putting together a half a million dollar contained film, is brutal, let alone a massive multi million dollar blockbuster.

    My DM's open and I'd be happy to chat further...

    where is the controversy? You are adapting novels and you're not the only one.

    It's very common. Why EON can't do that?

    But that's not what you were saying @DEKE_RIVERS , 😂. And that is not NOT what I was saying.

    But you know that.

    Look at what you did say: "with a novel you don't need a "twist". The book will give you enough stuff". This statement is a very incorrect statement, just like when you said screenplays aren't written to be read.

    But instead of cluttering up this thread with this silliness, I invited you to reach out for a private discussion.

    Which it was obvious from the jump that you wouldn't.

    Saying that, my DM is still open.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited January 17 Posts: 3,152
    It’s absolutely insane to me how CR was done so well that Eon decided not to try replicating that success and keep that second unit, but instead allow Marc Forster to take Bourne’s second unit/editing team and just make a poor imitation of what Paul Greengrass was more adept at. When news broke that SF was bringing back Alexander Witt and Stuart Baird, it was music to my ears.
    Although the reason Alexander Witt was hired for CR is because he was Doug Liman's second unit director on The Bourne Identity, tbf. Witt probably wouldn't have been on Bond without Bourne - funny how things work out.
  • edited January 17 Posts: 1,368
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I can imagine Bond 26 running with the very broad story elements that we quintessentially think of as ‘the Bond formula’, more than the first three Craig films did. By this I mean I think we’ll be likely to get a Bond/M briefing scene in the MI6 office, Bond will in fact have gadgets, the Bond girl will in fact live to the end of the film etc.

    That said I think within that very broad framework they’ll do something different with it - subvert some sort of expectation, put a twist on something etc. Honestly, every Bond film does something different anyway using that foundation, even if the Craig films departed from some of it (ie. Every Bond film will have a villain, a set up to Bond’s mission, an ally of some sort even if it’s simply M, Bond girl etc, and at least one part of the usual fodder is there - the Bond theme, the ‘Bond, James Bond’, the gun barrel etc.)

    With a novel you don't need a "twist" . The book will give you enough stuff.

    Hey, @DEKE_RIVERS ... Uhm, I've adapted a novel, and the same producer of that project has hired me to adapt another novel (from the same author)... I'm genuinely asking you to join me in a conversation (in our DMs), about how utterly misguided your post was. I don't think you'll accept the invitation, but I am asking...

    From your comments about scripts aren't written to be read, to this latest about books providing "enough stuff", it sounds like you think whipping up a $200 million tentpole film is easy-peasy. I can assure you, putting together a half a million dollar contained film, is brutal, let alone a massive multi million dollar blockbuster.

    My DM's open and I'd be happy to chat further...

    where is the controversy? You are adapting novels and you're not the only one.

    It's very common. Why EON can't do that?

    But that's not what you were saying @DEKE_RIVERS , 😂. And that is not NOT what I was saying.

    But you know that.

    Look at what you did say: "with a novel you don't need a "twist". The book will give you enough stuff". This statement is a very incorrect statement, just like when you said screenplays aren't written to be read.

    But instead of cluttering up this thread with this silliness, I invited you to reach out for a private discussion.

    Which it was obvious from the jump that you wouldn't.

    Saying that, my DM is still open.


    yes, that's what I say. Adapting novels is useful. don't you think so?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 17 Posts: 16,413
    Venutius wrote: »
    It’s absolutely insane to me how CR was done so well that Eon decided not to try replicating that success and keep that second unit, but instead allow Marc Forster to take Bourne’s second unit/editing team and just make a poor imitation of what Paul Greengrass was more adept at. When news broke that SF was bringing back Alexander Witt and Stuart Baird, it was music to my ears.
    Although the reason Alexander Witt was hired for CR is because he was Doug Liman's second unit director on The Bourne Identity, tbf. Witt probably wouldn't have been on Bond without Bourne - funny how things work out.

    Ha! That is funny. And I don't know how fair it is to call it the Bourne team anyway: Dan Bradley had just come off Indiana Jones- he wasn't just Bourne. He also went on to do the same job on Mission Impossible Ghost Protocol; and that wasn't Bourne either.

    Does anyone know how the QoS car chase was intended to end, incidentally? Seeing that footage of the Aston flipping onto its side again last week put it in my mind and I'm still eager to know what we missed. I think it must hit the spinning rear tyre of the JCB it and the Alfa are passing either side of, which flips it on its side, but I'm not sure why.
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