Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited January 23 Posts: 9,509
    @007HallY pretty much nailed it. And it does take an army to make a film. That includes writers who may excel at dialogue and character, or a Scott Burns who not only is a screenwriter in his own right, but is a doctor that gets hired to punch up the action sequences and set pieces.

    This is the formula for big budget filmmaking, but as 007hally pointed out, this process does stil take place with smaller/indie films.

    And, as bigger, more famous writers will tell anyone: the first person to be fired on a film is usually the writer , 😂…
  • Posts: 1,994
    It makes no difference to me if a Bond film is written by one or a hundred writers. Someone has final script approval and therein is where the responsibility lies. Had I been in the position to have a final say about Bond scripts, there would have been things I would not have approved. I wasn't in that position, nor will I ever be. Buy as a consumer of Bond films I can be as critical as I choose about any and all aspects of Bond films. Irrespective of any rationale posed or my incomplete understanding of what it takes to make a Bond film, I can still judge and offer opinions. A Bond film that I am critical of that goes on to be a success doesn't negate my opinion. It doesn't make me wrong. I am not one to hop on the band wagon of popular opinion.

    Do I wish to see a change of writers with the next Bond series? Yes, whether it's a team of writers from one to a hundred. Why? Because you don't build a new house from the ground up using the same materials from the one you tore down. Unless, you're a proponent of repurposing, which is what you'd be doing hiring the same writers you've been using for a couple of decades. Bond 26: Only the name is the same.

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Building a house isn’t like making a film. Scorsese to Adam Sandler build little companies the way theatrical companies used to do. You build a company of writers and directors and actors and editors…

    Having an opinion about whether you like a film or not can’t be wrong. Having an opinion about HOW a film should be made could be an incorrect opinion. Very incorrect…
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 23 Posts: 16,420
    talos7 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    What’s the old saying, too many cooks…

    If you named a load of your favourite big movies though, I bet they were made with the same process.
    They spend a lot of money on these things- if it didn't work they wouldn't do it.

    And no doubt several were not; there is no locked in formula.

    There's obviously no guaranteed way of making a brilliant film: but it's not possible to point to any part of the process which has delivered many, many great films (and plenty of bad ones too of course) and say 'that doesn't work'. Because clearly 'too many cooks' can work, and often does.
  • Posts: 6,709
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    In a way I think they've already been doing that in the last couple of movies; Bond and Madeleine listening to vinyl records in Matera, the consistent reappearance of the DB5, the Rolls Royce in SP, Blofeld and Safin's lairs, the MI6 offices, Craig's style being inspired by Steve McQueen, etc.

    If you got rid of the mobile phones in Casino Royale, I'd say much of that movie is very retro too. I really liked that whole vibe.
    I think all four of the Daniel Crag James Bond movies have a muted timeless feel. I appreciated that.

    @ColonelAdamski
    Five Daniel Craig Bond movies, sir. Happy to have helped.

    There's only four in my world.

    I like your thinking.... :))

    4, and half an hour of another, yes ;)
  • Posts: 1,368
    mtm wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    What’s the old saying, too many cooks…

    If you named a load of your favourite big movies though, I bet they were made with the same process.
    They spend a lot of money on these things- if it didn't work they wouldn't do it.

    And no doubt several were not; there is no locked in formula.

    There's obviously no guaranteed way of making a brilliant film: but it's not possible to point to any part of the process which has delivered many, many great films (and plenty of bad ones too of course) and say 'that doesn't work'. Because clearly 'too many cooks' can work, and often does.

    Yeah, It can work. If they only needed one they would have one.
  • edited January 23 Posts: 6,709
    Thing is, most of the time another writer is called because something within his or her area of expertise isn’t working and needs a so called polish. So it’s only fair to assume that it isn’t a good sign that a script needs that many “doctors”. Of course one could end up having a clean built health by the end of it, but most of the times, calling in a multitask clinical team tells of forseen complications.

    At the end of the day, beginning with a solid script (and vision) is never, ever, a bad thing, and that’s what they should aim for.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    No, not really. Big tentpole films have been using a team of writers for decades and decades. It doesn't mean the script is in trouble, at all.

    When a studio purchases a script, they purchase it because it is a high scoring screenplay (studios have a team of readers that grade each script submitted to them).

    Once the deal is done, the film may take many many many many months after, to start principal, but more often than not, it is a few years from sale to principal.

    Things change while a script sits on a shelf, and once development begins in earnest, a producer, or producers, study their investment, and assesses how they can make this project air tight. If it needs more action, they go to the action people. If they wanted more romance, they go to those doctors, and so on.

    It's just the way films are assembled.

    However, @Univex , a script tends to show it's over all health if a page one rewrite is commissioned. That means the studio and producers love a concept, but the script was executed poorly. So they hire new writers to maintain the original idea, but they want a new script written around it.

    A page one rewrite shows a script or story is in trouble.

    What we've been discussing is the hiring of script doctors to tighten or enhance elements of the original scripts. These assignments are well paid, but short in duration (a couple to three weeks of work, max. It's not a re-write. It's more of a "punching-up.")
  • Posts: 4,166
    Univex wrote: »
    Thing is, most of the time another writer is called because something within his or her area of expertise isn’t working and needs a so called polish. So it’s only fair to assume that it isn’t a good sign that a script needs that many “doctors”. Of course one could end up having a clean built health by the end of it, but most of the times, calling in a multitask clinical team tells of forseen complications.

    At the end of the day, beginning with a solid script (and vision) is never, ever, a bad thing, and that’s what they should aim for.

    I think if there’s a lack of consistent direction then of course there’ll be problems no matter who the writers are. At the end of the day it’s those head creatives (producers and possibly the director) who provide the notes for writers/tell them even broadly what they need changing and get final say.

    For what it’s worth though, I don’t think this is the case with Bond. I personally don’t like some of the creative decisions taken with NTTD, and indeed viewers may find certain plot points contrived or ineffective, but it does have a coherency. All the plot threads lead somewhere, each scene has a clear purpose, and it knows what it’s about/leading up to. Alongside SF I’d say it’s the most ‘effective’ script of the Craig era in this sense (as much as I prefer CR as a film I don’t think its script is as good, often suffering from ropey dialogue and the occasional plot point - ie Mathis being ‘framed’ by Le Chiffre - that’s set up as a twist and never quite adequately explained).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 23 Posts: 16,420
    peter wrote: »
    No, not really. Big tentpole films have been using a team of writers for decades and decades. It doesn't mean the script is in trouble, at all.

    When a studio purchases a script, they purchase it because it is a high scoring screenplay (studios have a team of readers that grade each script submitted to them).

    Once the deal is done, the film may take many many many many months after, to start principal, but more often than not, it is a few years from sale to principal.

    Things change while a script sits on a shelf, and once development begins in earnest, a producer, or producers, study their investment, and assesses how they can make this project air tight. If it needs more action, they go to the action people. If they wanted more romance, they go to those doctors, and so on.

    It's just the way films are assembled.

    However, @Univex , a script tends to show it's over all health if a page one rewrite is commissioned. That means the studio and producers love a concept, but the script was executed poorly. So they hire new writers to maintain the original idea, but they want a new script written around it.

    A page one rewrite shows a script or story is in trouble.

    What we've been discussing is the hiring of script doctors to tighten or enhance elements of the original scripts. These assignments are well paid, but short in duration (a couple to three weeks of work, max. It's not a re-write. It's more of a "punching-up.")

    There's an interesting bit in Some Kind of Hero where, I think it's either Michael Wilson or one of P&W, says how writing a big film like these is like a marathon, and sometimes your writers tire after many months on it and you need to send them back to the bench and get some new players on the pitch (yes, I'm mixing the metaphor! :D ) for a burst of energy. It's not about them failing, it's just the process.
    I've been looking at a really interesting website which looks at the various drafts of the script for Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade recently, which I think has an almost perfect blockbuster movie script, with wonderful dialogue, excellent character development, actual themes which run though it, very efficient exposition, ideas which pay off later in the story, great jokes we all still remember etc. and it's quite amazing to see how each person who took it on refined it more and more, eliminating the dead ends and compressing various things until it became practically perfect. A fresh pair of eyes on something doesn't mean it's bad to start with.
    007HallY wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    Thing is, most of the time another writer is called because something within his or her area of expertise isn’t working and needs a so called polish. So it’s only fair to assume that it isn’t a good sign that a script needs that many “doctors”. Of course one could end up having a clean built health by the end of it, but most of the times, calling in a multitask clinical team tells of forseen complications.

    At the end of the day, beginning with a solid script (and vision) is never, ever, a bad thing, and that’s what they should aim for.

    I think if there’s a lack of consistent direction then of course there’ll be problems no matter who the writers are. At the end of the day it’s those head creatives (producers and possibly the director) who provide the notes for writers/tell them even broadly what they need changing and get final say.

    For what it’s worth though, I don’t think this is the case with Bond. I personally don’t like some of the creative decisions taken with NTTD, and indeed viewers may find certain plot points contrived or ineffective, but it does have a coherency. All the plot threads lead somewhere, each scene has a clear purpose, and it knows what it’s about/leading up to. Alongside SF I’d say it’s the most ‘effective’ script of the Craig era in this sense (as much as I prefer CR as a film I don’t think its script is as good, often suffering from ropey dialogue and the occasional plot point - ie Mathis being ‘framed’ by Le Chiffre - that’s set up as a twist and never quite adequately explained).


    Yeah, strongly agree there- NTTD does work as a piece very well (maybe some slight confusion about who Valdo and Primo think they're working for at points, and maybe Nomi is rather redundant, but it all feels part of the same film and everything drives in the same direction), and SF does too, where CR does feel a touch scrappy in places- the falling building set piece we've been talking about is a good example.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    And NTTD from what I heard, was an actual page one rewrite based off of a P and W concept. However, I have conflicting reports on how far P and W went. Some people told me they wrote a draft (as in a single draft), and others said it was a few outlines that didn’t get to a script. Either way Cary F came in and started a page one on it, but regardless, it didn’t sound as if P and W went very far in development. But they at least put structure to it, and Cary ran with his own writing team (uncredited Scott z Burns, PWB and himself).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 23 Posts: 16,420
    That's very interesting; sounds like they had less time working on it than usual then. It would be fascinating to see what changed.

    To me someone doing an uncredited polish often sounds similar to the role an editor has on a novel: they can see the novel with fresh eyes, work out what's working and what isn't, and give it a prune and a tidy up here and there. TV shows have script editors who do much the same. To think that this means the script or book is 'sick' in the first place seems a very odd idea to me.
  • It's not about them failing, it's just the process.

    That often is the process but not always. Just think of the screenplays of Tarantino, Cameron or Nolan. For example Cameron does have co-writers on the Avatar sequels, but it was his decision to employ co-writers, and his creative vision is still very much the driving force behind the sequels.

    I get that producers often meddle in the creative process, but in an ideal world producers don't make any creative decision. Instead, they simply help the director execute his or her creative vision.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 23 Posts: 16,420
    It's not about them failing, it's just the process.

    That often is the process but not always. Just think of the screenplays of Tarantino, Cameron or Nolan.

    Sure; there's no rule that says every single film gets made the same way. But many of them go through a similar process, and loads of films we've all loved got made in that or a similar method too.
    I find the process of re-writing rather fascinating, especially when it comes to big blockbusters funnily enough. Because they're almost more like machines than anything: they need designing and machining and rebuilding and oiling and refining. A James Bond movie is not a personal expression of one writer's soul.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited January 23 Posts: 9,509
    @Colonel_Venus in the case of Tarantino and Nolan, they’re auteurs. They’re writing for themselves to direct.

    They are outliers. Not many are given this leeway. They are the 1% .

    99% of the films you watch have been done precisely as described above…

    EDIT: @mtm: you’re right on the short time. That’s exactly the case. P an W did their outline/draft but then there was the Boyle/Hodge interruption.

    Once Boyle/Hodge left.

    Carey was hired and he turned everything around in a few short months. It was a very fast turn around in a business that sometimes feels like it’s moving as fast as molasses…
  • edited January 23 Posts: 4,166
    Another thing to consider is those auteurs like Cameron and Nolan are (at least in part) producing the films themselves as well as directing/writing. And they've built up to that point after a very certain point in their careers, often having attained a level of clout or in some cases a relative degree of financial independence. It's very different to the typical working director, regardless of whether that's in big films/TV, or even in something like corporate video/film. For the vast majority of directors their job isn't to make those big conceptual decisions but simply adapt the script or fulfil the brief for whatever project they've been hired to do. It doesn't mean they're not creative, it's just that they have a very specific job. Saying that in an ideal world producers wouldn't make any creative decision and simply allow the director to fulfil their creative vision misses the point in the majority of cases. Most of the time it's the director who is tasked with executing the creative vision of the project, the concept of which they've had no hand in (very simplified, but that's broadly what they do. Incidentally that's how Nolan started out as a director on corporate videos, and Cameron's first film is in line with this).

    Anyway, there are plenty of examples of auteurs who either constantly work/have worked with other writers, or don't tend to write their own scripts at all.
  • Posts: 6,709
    My bad on not reading all the previous posts, @peter. I suppose I meant a page one rewrite under a new tone and vision, a realignment if one must. I’ve been a clinical practitioner on a number of scripts, and I’ve never been called if it’s a tight affair, brilliantly written and conceptualised. I still advocate getting a good writer or writers from the get go, and being clear on the vision one wants for the project. I’m not saying things won’t work out brilliantly otherwise, as I’m sure many times is the case, but if we’re playing with the odds, better have the good hand to start with, than to relly on wild cards and pure chance.
  • Posts: 3,327
    peter wrote: »
    @Colonel_Venus in the case of Tarantino and Nolan, they’re auteurs. They’re writing for themselves to direct.

    They are outliers. Not many are given this leeway. They are the 1% .
    Add Kubrick to that too. Like you said, the 1%.

    Yes I know movie scripts suffer endless rewrites with different writers, this even happened in the early Bond films.

    I'm not sure on the 80's Bond films though, as it appears as though John Glen worked closely with Maibaum and Wilson, and there wasn't that many other writers involved in the process (I could be wrong).


  • Posts: 4,166
    peter wrote: »
    @Colonel_Venus in the case of Tarantino and Nolan, they’re auteurs. They’re writing for themselves to direct.

    They are outliers. Not many are given this leeway. They are the 1% .
    Add Kubrick to that too. Like you said, the 1%.

    Yes I know movie scripts suffer endless rewrites with different writers, this even happened in the early Bond films.

    I'm not sure on the 80's Bond films though, as it appears as though John Glen worked closely with Maibaum and Wilson, and there wasn't that many other writers involved in the process (I could be wrong).


    Kubrick's a director who tended to work with other writers as well (and by his own admission never wrote original screenplays, and specifically sough out novels to adapt). He generally tended to work with other writers as well. As I said before he hired two different screenwriters for Dr. Strangelove based on the direction he wanted to take the screenplay in, and at least two academics met with him to hone the ins and outs of nuclear warfare. He famously also crafted the script of Full Metal Jacket by getting Michael Herr and Gustav Hasford to submit different drafts and then edited them together/played around with stuff during shooting. Even A Clockwork Orange, a script credited only to him, featured heavy contributions by Malcolm McDowell and on-set/editing revisions. He's a fascinating director, but I often think his 'perfectionism' is somewhat overstated and his ability to collaborate/understand the different areas of filmmaking is understated.
  • edited January 23 Posts: 2,270
    He co-wrote ‘The Shining’ with Diane Johnson as well! And don’t forget how critically panned that film was when it came out, even being nominated for the razzies! I think people tend to overlook the fact that even films of the New Hollywood era were collaborative efforts. The Godfather films were famously collaborative efforts between Mario Puzo and Francis Ford Coppola. Apocalypse Now was Coppola and John Milius. Even Warren Beatty, who had a notorious reputation for being a perfectionist, was open to collaborations between himself and the likes of Robert Towne, and Elaine May. Now compare those to films like The Flash, which went through multiple different writers and approaches, and ultimately ended up being a confused, bloated slog of a film to get through. The difference in the quality of writing is night and day, and I get that’s a bit of a tough comparison to make, but I think it sort of highlights the fact that on many of the “big” blockbusters, there are sometimes too many people having an input/say in story making decisions.
  • Posts: 4,166
    He co-wrote ‘The Shining’ with Diane Johnson as well! And don’t forget how critically panned that film was when it came out, even being nominated for the razzies! I think people tend to overlook the fact that even films of the New Hollywood era were collaborative efforts. The Godfather films were famously collaborative efforts between Mario Puzo and Francis Ford Coppola. Apocalypse Now was Coppola and John Milius. Even Warren Beatty, who had a notorious reputation for being a perfectionist, was open to collaborations between himself and the likes of Robert Towne, and Elaine May. Now compare those to films like The Flash, which went through multiple different writers and approaches, and ultimately ended up being a confused, bloated slog of a film to get through. The difference in the quality of writing is night and day, and I get that’s a bit of a tough comparison to make, but I think it sort of highlights the fact that on many of the “big” blockbusters, there are sometimes too many people having an input/say in story making decisions.

    True about the New Hollywood types (Robert Towne was also a script doctor/uncredited contributor on The Godfather as well).

    I suppose The Flash example may well come back to the issue of coherent direction from producers/directors that I was talking about (thing about the credited writers on that as well is that only one seems to have gotten a screenplay by credit - the other 3 have story by credits). Like I said, with Bond there does seem to be more consistency on a basic level, regardless of what one thinks of the actual creative decisions.
  • 007HallY wrote: »
    Like I said, with Bond there does seem to be more consistency on a basic level, regardless of what one thinks of the actual creative decisions.

    There is, and I’m thankful for that. Regardless of how some feel about the films of the last 25 or so years, none of them feel as if they buckle under their own weight. Even Die Another Day surprisingly doesn’t feel as convoluted when it comes to its plotting, and that film has CGI waves, race swapping villains, and invisible Aston Martins.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,138
    I'm hopeful EON does what they do best when they find themselves in this position.
    They go back to Fleming.
    An updated version of Fleming's Bond for today's audiences could be the way to go.
    Add characters like May and Sir James Molony perhaps. I realise that housekeepers are few and far between in today's society. But a woman that comes and looks after Bonds apartment while he's not in London via an online service wouldn't be out of the question.
  • Posts: 1,994
    Would it be enough to see May going about her housekeeping duties, or would she need to be a part of the plot? Attacked, kidnapped, or witness to something?
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,138
    I think it would be enough to see her going about her duties. A minor character, no need to give the next film a personal angle to the story. As much as that helps fuel things, it does get a bit repetitive after a while.
    I was thinking maybe Bond could berate May for not cooking his eggs for three and a third minutes, or something along those lines. See a little more of Bond's private life when he's not on a mission.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited January 24 Posts: 6,304
    Benny wrote: »
    I'm hopeful EON does what they do best when they find themselves in this position.
    They go back to Fleming.
    An updated version of Fleming's Bond for today's audiences could be the way to go.
    Add characters like May and Sir James Molony perhaps. I realise that housekeepers are few and far between in today's society. But a woman that comes and looks after Bonds apartment while he's not in London via an online service wouldn't be out of the question.

    Tom Holland
    is
    Ian Fleming's James Bond
    in
    Sex for Dinner, Bed and Breakfast

    Starring
    Damian Lewis as Drex
    Zendaya as Gala Brand
    with Robert Downey Jr. as M
    and Imelda Staunton as May
  • Although I'm not that convinced by May's introduction, I do think it would be interesting to expand on Bond's civilian life outside of his work. Maybe it's time to bring back Sylvia Trench or to introduce a similar character?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    Although I'm not that convinced by May's introduction, I do think it would be interesting to expand on Bond's civilian life outside of his work. Maybe it's time to bring back Sylvia Trench or to introduce a similar character?

    I would only want this if it happens to intersect with the plot of the film. I don’t want to stop the adventure film to see how Bond spends his evenings off duty or how he gets his flat cleaned.
  • Posts: 2,165
    mtm wrote: »
    Although I'm not that convinced by May's introduction, I do think it would be interesting to expand on Bond's civilian life outside of his work. Maybe it's time to bring back Sylvia Trench or to introduce a similar character?

    I would only want this if it happens to intersect with the plot of the film. I don’t want to stop the adventure film to see how Bond spends his evenings off duty or how he gets his flat cleaned.

    I think it could be the sort of thing they add straight after the titles and before Bond goes to MI6 to see M for his mission. It only needs a minute or so of screen time but would add a lot.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    What would that add though? Sounds like it could slow the whole thing down, unless we’re establishing some sort of change in Bond’s lifestyle which affects where the story goes.
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