Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    peter wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    I'm ready for more of a lighter style Bond on a mission approach again. Exploring the depths of Bond's character was something I didn't like about the Craig era. I see Bond as more a pulp hero character. He's better when he's already developed. Sure he can go through the wringer on his missions but he still always comes out on top. It wouldn't be regression, it would be a breath of fresh air. To say it can't be done today is nonsense and close minded. I don't want reality in my Bond films. I want escapist fantasy! Bond is an escape from this world, not a reflection of it. If the next Bond era is just going to be Craig 2.0 with even more melodrama and terrible plot twist then it will crash and burn.

    But why is anyone assuming the next era could be a Craig 2.0?

    I’m a fan of the Craig era, but I don’t want Craig 2.0, and I don’t see the filmmakers going backwards to design and create a new era.

    Each era has had its own uniqueness, strengths and weaknesses… I don’t see this changing in the slightest.

    Words of wisdom.

    The Moore era was popular. Guess what, TLD and LTK were the opposite of the Moore era. Why would they introduce a new actor by reminding us of the previous one? The logic is lost on me.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    The Moore era was popular. Guess what, TLD and LTK were the opposite of the Moore era. Why would they introduce a new actor by reminding us of the previous one? The logic is lost on me.

    I wouldn't say that's entirely true. The Living Daylights in particular had some elements to it that felt like it would belong in a Moore film. The cello case sled scene and the campy nature of Koskov and Whittaker. just to give a couple examples. Not knocking the film but it still had faint echoes of Moore in it.

    Licence to Kill was pure Dalton.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    Murdock wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    The Moore era was popular. Guess what, TLD and LTK were the opposite of the Moore era. Why would they introduce a new actor by reminding us of the previous one? The logic is lost on me.

    I wouldn't say that's entirely true. The Living Daylights in particular had some elements to it that felt like it would belong in a Moore film. The cello case sled scene and the campy nature of Koskov and Whittaker. just to give a couple examples. Not knocking the film but it still had faint echoes of Moore in it.

    Licence to Kill was pure Dalton.

    Faint echoes, sure, but as soon as Dalton came on board, TLD became something quite different, IMO.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    Denis Villeneuve would probably do a DN/FRWL style thriller but with TSWLM scale and visuals.
  • Posts: 6,709
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    I'm ready for more of a lighter style Bond on a mission approach again. Exploring the depths of Bond's character was something I didn't like about the Craig era. I see Bond as more a pulp hero character. He's better when he's already developed. Sure he can go through the wringer on his missions but he still always comes out on top. It wouldn't be regression, it would be a breath of fresh air. To say it can't be done today is nonsense and close minded. I don't want reality in my Bond films. I want escapist fantasy! Bond is an escape from this world, not a reflection of it. If the next Bond era is just going to be Craig 2.0 with even more melodrama and terrible plot twist then it will crash and burn.

    But why is anyone assuming the next era could be a Craig 2.0?

    I’m a fan of the Craig era, but I don’t want Craig 2.0, and I don’t see the filmmakers going backwards to design and create a new era.

    Each era has had its own uniqueness, strengths and weaknesses… I don’t see this changing in the slightest.

    Words of wisdom.

    The Moore era was popular. Guess what, TLD and LTK were the opposite of the Moore era. Why would they introduce a new actor by reminding us of the previous one? The logic is lost on me.

    Words of wisdom, indeed. Forwards is the way. Replication would be an insult to Craig, and I highly doubt Barbara would do that.
  • ForbseyForbsey Hampshire
    Posts: 8
    Jason Statham should play Blofeld..and Bond.
  • edited March 2 Posts: 6,709
    Forbsey wrote: »
    Jason Statham should play Blofeld..and Bond.

    At the same time? Now wouldn't that be something ;) The title could be Doubleshot...oh, wait.. :)
  • Posts: 1,979
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I also think we're not considering that other eras had their successes and their failures. The problems within the James Bond series don't live and die on the Craig-era alone. If people are nervous regarding following the same path, then why are we not discussing the same pitfalls that other eras fell into? Again, if we're assuming that following a similar path will lead to the same mistakes?

    For example, I agree that we need less MI6 moles going forward. It's overdone, but if EON do give me that again and it's the best I've ever seen it done? I'll eat my words straight away.

    I absolutely believe every Bond era has its successes and failures. That I prefer one era over another certainly doesn't mean I don't find fault. To your point about something being overdone is precisely why I don't want to see it again, even if done well.
  • Posts: 579
    echo wrote: »
    We haven't had a standalone mission since 1987.

    ?? Weren't all 4 Brosnan movies standalone? Casino Royale and Skyfall were standalone too when they were released, only later movies made them non-standalone.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,133
    Denis Villeneuve would probably do a DN/FRWL style thriller but with TSWLM scale and visuals.

    And this is a problem why?

    If that happened, I'd be more than happy.

    Imagine a new Bond actors debut with a film like that.
  • Posts: 1,979
    Having watched DUNE last night, nothing about that film or its direction even slightly hinted at Bond to me. I didn't find any of the characters especially compelling, not even Baron Kurtz.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited March 3 Posts: 2,011
    Villeneuve's a great director for sure. But I tend to enjoy his films more at home than the cinema. Because at home, I'm relaxed and can endure his slow burn style. Also, if he does directs Bond, he might do few action sequences, and use the rest of the film for his slow burn dramatic style. Or maybe he can adjust? Albeit if he does direct, another Hans Zimmer Bond score is certain...and Zimmer would do wonders with enough time given to him. Also, I really think a Villeneuve Bond film might feel like Skyfall....an unconventional and well shot Bond film, but still retaining the Bond style.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 941
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Having watched DUNE last night, nothing about that film or its direction even slightly hinted at Bond to me. I didn't find any of the characters especially compelling, not even Baron Kurtz.

    I'm not a huge fan of Villeneuve, but I think Blade Runner 2049 is the film that shows a certain amount of Bond-influence, with the hero being introduced in what is essentially a mini-adventure which ties into the main plot in much the same way that Bond pre-title sequences do, and of course Jared Leto's outlandish scheming mastermind pulling strings whilst his henchman (or woman, in this case) is the physical threat to the hero.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    Villeneuve's a great director for sure. But I tend to enjoy his films more at home than the cinema. Because at home, I'm relaxed and can endure his slow burn style. Also, if he does directs Bond, he might do few action sequences, and use the rest of the film for his slow burn dramatic style. Or maybe he can adjust? Albeit if he does direct, another Hans Zimmer Bond score is certain...and Zimmer would do wonders with enough time given to him. Also, I really think a Villeneuve Bond film might feel like Skyfall....an unconventional and well shot Bond film, but still retaining the Bond style.

    Exactly, can Villeneuve do bond without making it cerebral and moody and slow? I think there would likely be 1 or 2 big action scenes, just enough to put in the trailers, and most of the film would have very little dialogue, just a visual feast as Villeneuve films are.
  • Posts: 1,332
    Sicario, don't forget Sicario.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited March 3 Posts: 9,509
    If one watched Revolutionary Road or American Beauty, would one have seen a future Bond director?

    If one watched Monster's Ball or The Kite Runner, would anyone imagine the same director would have delivered QoS?

    If one watched cheesy flicks like Criminal Law or Defenseless, would one have thought Martin Campbell capable of making not just one, sophisticated and slick Bond film, but two, and two that are regarded as top of the series?

    To try and see a Bond film in a cerebral sci-fi film is really asking a lot of a filmmaker.

    I suppose if one wanted to see what Villeneuve could do as a Bond director, you should seek out one of his films that would be closer in genre, like Sicario. And then watch del Toro's character perform his assassination scene. That would be the best bet to see how Villeneuve could, potentially, approach a Bond film.

    I'm personally not concerned about the casting of Bond, nor the director. I have faith that whomever these people are, it'll be the right ones...
  • Posts: 4,133
    I think a lot of it depends on how much the director understands Bond. As I've said in the past Mendes seemed to 'get' what makes a Bond film work - the mixture of tension and heightened reality needed for action sequences, how to mix modern elements with Bond tropes/the material from the Fleming novels etc. It's just something certain directors understand or at least learn when they go into a Bond film.

    Any director will also bring their previous experience and little 'touches' as well, but how they tell a Bond story is arguably based on their adaptability. To Villeneuve's credit he's a director adept at working in a variety of genres and is able to effectively tell a distinct story for each of his films. That's actually encouraging, even if I'm not his biggest fan.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    Let's just assume that the "secret project" is bond and Villeneuve has been in negotiations for a while, its basically a done deal. With how fast we know EON can work once the ball is rolling, how likely do you think that they can get a script drafted over the summer and potentially be ready to film by the start of next year?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    peter wrote: »
    If one watched Revolutionary Road or American Beauty, would one have seen a future Bond director?

    If one watched Monster's Ball or The Kite Runner, would anyone imagine the same director would have delivered QoS?

    If one watched cheesy flicks like Criminal Law or Defenseless, would one have thought Martin Campbell capable of making not just one, sophisticated and slick Bond film, but two, and two that are regarded as top of the series?

    To try and see a Bond film in a cerebral sci-fi film is really asking a lot of a filmmaker.

    I suppose if one wanted to see what Villeneuve could do as a Bond director, you should seek out one of his films that would be closer in genre, like Sicario. And then watch del Toro's character perform his assassination scene. That would be the best bet to see how Villeneuve could, potentially, approach a Bond film.

    I'm personally not concerned about the casting of Bond, nor the director. I have faith that whomever these people are, it'll be the right ones...

    That's what I have been trying to say before, @peter. Looking at a director's resume, and drawing conclusions about hypothetical Bond films, is a strange thing to do. Many were thrilled that Danny Boyle was going to do a Bond film, the guy who made Trainspotting, 28 Days Later, Sunshine, The Beach, and Slumdog Millionaire. What in these films screams Bond? Except that Boyle has artistic merit, can work with actors, can turn in awesome films on small budgets, and can produce beautiful images. That's what made me interested in a Boyle film. Same with Villeneuve. He's a filmmaker who has already shown tremendous skill.

    The question is not so much, what has this director done that is like Bond? The question is, is this a capable director? A capable director understands that Bond is not something he should axe up until it fits the mood, tone, pace and art of his previous work. Rather, he understands Bond's DNA and is excited about making a kick-ass Bond film that pleases fans, draws in large audiences and appeals to a new generation of young future Bond fans.

    When people are afraid that Bond will not line up well with a respectable director's previous work, I offer them Mister Mom as Batman to reflect on. Remember, also, that Spielberg was mocked by critics when he started making "serious" films. Robert Pattinson is now a respected actor, yet wasn't he hideous as Edward in that Twilight crap? Saying that Villeneuve will surely make a Bond film that's slow, cerebral, emotionally cold, boring even, feels a bit hysterical and leads to just the same mistakes. I think Villeneuve has shown that he deserves some credit. If -- and it's a big if -- Villeneuve ends up doing a Bond film someday, shall we give the talented filmmaker some credit rather than assume that he's already exhausted his range, style and inspiration?
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    Exactly @DarthDimi @peter!

    Good directors shape themselves and their skills to a project and what it needs, they don't try and turn it into something its not and Villeneuve would be no different.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Very nicely said and you’ve summed up my feelings as well, @DarthDimi … This is also a hugely collaborative effort to put films like these on the big screen (as @moneyofpropre2 has shown in his 1300 plus pages of research ). There will be producers and actors and stunt coordinators and editors all having a say in how the script and film is shaped.

    And, as you say, this is a big IF (I do believe that Villeneuve is right at the top of their choices, but scheduling (as Villeneuve’s past with EoN proves), is a very real obstacle). If EoN isn’t ready with a script and casting, and one or two of Villeneuve’s other projects are ready to go, he won’t wait forever and he’ll have to move on.

    Like everything in this industry: nothing is written in stone until a film is locked and delivered (directors can get fired, actors can get injured, natural disasters can wipe sets out (all things that have happened (Bryan Singer/Josh Trank; actors who do some of their own stunts get hurt all the time (Ford, Craig, Clooney); the first time Gilliam was to shoot his Don Quixote film, Mother Nature had other plans…))…; stars have to align, and it’s never as simple as someone “wanting” to do a multi million tent pole film. So much has to actually fall in place (it really is a wonder that these types of films are made every year).
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 941
    Let's just assume that the "secret project" is bond and Villeneuve has been in negotiations for a while, its basically a done deal. With how fast we know EON can work once the ball is rolling, how likely do you think that they can get a script drafted over the summer and potentially be ready to film by the start of next year?

    I think the quote " I have four projects on the table, currently. One of them is a secret project that I cannot talk about right now, but that needs to see the light of day quite quickly," IF it pertains to Bond, sounds like he's concerned Eon are taking too long to get the ball rolling. I tend to agree with Peter that even if Villeneuve's secret project is Bond it is by no means certain that it will happen. A lot of planets have to align to put someone so currently popular in the director's chair of such a carefully managed franchise.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    Villeneuve can smash out an epic like Dune in 2 years, if Bond 26 is some kind of thriller it wouldn't take that level of prep work, and if EON finally have the ducks in a row...

    Amazon will certainly be willing to throw any amount of money to get the wheels turning.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 941
    Villeneuve can smash out an epic like Dune in 2 years, if Bond 26 is some kind of thriller it wouldn't take that level of prep work, and if EON finally have the ducks in a row...

    Amazon will certainly be willing to throw any amount of money to get the wheels turning.
    Dune already had a plot, a very definite story and direction, the new Bond perhaps doesn't, the producers might still be unsure which direction to take the character in and what they want to say with it. It's not the filming, it's all that stuff that comes before it that I think might slow things down.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Villeneuve can smash out an epic like Dune in 2 years, if Bond 26 is some kind of thriller it wouldn't take that level of prep work, and if EON finally have the ducks in a row...

    Amazon will certainly be willing to throw any amount of money to get the wheels turning.
    Dune already had a plot, a very definite story and direction, the new Bond perhaps doesn't, the producers might still be unsure which direction to take the character in and what they want to say with it. It's not the filming, it's all that stuff that comes before it that I think might slow things down.

    💯 % @sandbagger1 … Development is exactly that: it’s doing some heavy lifting in early stages to make sure, as best as possible, that the production doesn’t get knee-capped in some way, later down the road. Development of these hugely expensive projects takes time. The people behind the scenes (including those at Amazon), know this, they know what’s at stake, and they will take all the time they need (and IF this secret project is indeed Bond, then EoN and Amazon know they’re now in some kind of three-headed race, and there is no guarantee they’ll be the victors).
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    peter wrote: »
    Very nicely said and you’ve summed up my feelings as well, @DarthDimi … This is also a hugely collaborative effort to put films like these on the big screen (as @moneyofpropre2 has shown in his 1300 plus pages of research ). There will be producers and actors and stunt coordinators and editors all having a say in how the script and film is shaped.

    Yes, @peter, that too. I doubt that EoN is ever going to let a director operate in isolation, i.e. in full control of the entire project. A Bond film is typically a "family" effort; a director is not likely to ever monopolise a film. It's certainly true that directors bring a vision, possibly even a DP, composer, ..., and if their ideas please the chiefs, then they probably gain some freedom. But in the end, I'm sure that they still answer to the producers. Remember, Boyle had to walk. Even Danny Boyle, who is not exactly a random nobody, wasn't going to make his Bond film.
  • Posts: 133
    Well, assuming the producers would like to hire Villeneuve it's most likely because they like his films and his filming style. Almost all of his films are relatively slow and very serious, with very little humor. If they want to go to back to more humorous, adventurous and lighter films I doubt they would ask Villeneuve to direct their movie. Of course it's a collaborative effort, but I doubt they are looking for a lighter tone, if they would like to work with Villeneuve.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Kojak007 wrote: »
    Well, assuming the producers would like to hire Villeneuve it's most likely because they like his films and his filming style. Almost all of his films are relatively slow and very serious, with very little humor. If they want to go to back to more humorous, adventurous and lighter films I doubt they would ask Villeneuve to direct their movie. Of course it's a collaborative effort, but I doubt they are looking for a lighter tone, if they would like to work with Villeneuve.

    Really depends on your definition of "humor" @Kojak007 ... In Sicario, I thought most of Brolin's scenes had a biting, sardonic or black humor....
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    I'm just a little puzzled at the timeframes. Again, assuming "secret project" = bond 26, and Villeneuve said things need to happen fairly quickly, then how long can they afford to wait before he has to go off and make Dune: Messiah?

    Can Villeneuve really justify hanging around until 2026 when he has so many projects in development? Maybe, if he's really passionate about Bond, but it seems a bit unrealistic to me.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited March 3 Posts: 5,970
    I mean without going into it too much, Dune Messiah is a project I imagine could probably benefit from a gap if Denis wants to go off and work on something else. It's not something he needs to rush due to the aging of actors at all. I know he's finished the script but I don't see Denis being against sitting on something if he feels the time isn't right or he wants to explore something else in the meantime? But again we are just hypothetically speaking in terms of this secret project being Bond.

    He himself said recently: "the danger in Hollywood is thinking about release dates, not quality." and "there is absolutely a desire to have a third one, but I don’t want to rush it."
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