The henchman appreciation thread

135

Comments

  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Agreed. He also waves the dynamite around long enough for Rog to grab the axe and cut the rope. Amateurish to the extreme.

    But keep in mind, this guy is probably 85 or so. He is also not supposed to be a super villain who is very handy with the gun or the dynamite. He probably needs some time to do all that. I found the ending very funny and somewhat different from all the other villains' death which are often kind of similair and boring. It is also not very unrealistic. I also like that Bond who is quiet old here needs to be smart and cretive. In the more recent Bond flms it's mostly only about strength or quicknees which really bores me.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    The one thing I don't like about Dr. Mortner is his lazy, cartoony death.

    Yep.

    Like they were all just about to go off to the wrap party when someone suddenly said 'Hang on we forgot to kill off Scarpine and Mortner. Err let's just have them do some comedy juggling with some TNT from a Roadrunner cartoon. Sorted. Come on the bar's open.'

    Apart from anything what sort of shit way is that to try and kill someone hanging on the bridge? You have to time throwing it so it sails past Bond just as it goes off. Why not pick up Scarpine's gun up and use that rather than going straight to your fridge full of dynamite (and why would you have that anyway? For some impromptu mine excavating?).

    We slag off SP's writing, and with good reason, but this is so poor. Even P&W would've come up with something better.

    Don't know what you mean. It is not a major plot point, anyway. But if all villains reacted in a serious way Bond would not be alive. I think we can agree on that. As I said this old man is probably not a very smart super villain who knows how to kill someone the easiest way. Anyway he is not that stupid. As long as Bond stays under the pipe, he cannot shoot him from the Blimp. Throwing dynamit is however very affective. Because the explosion would make him fall from the bridge. The whole scene is also not that different from the death of the guy in the helicopter in FRWL.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I love that scene linked to above of Moore Bond kicking Sandor. One of several excellent fights by Sir Roger Moore throughout his storied career. Such intensity. The others of course were the savage encounter in Saida's change room, the Venice thrashing of Chang (I was surprised at how effective Rog was in that one) and the dispatching of two of Anya's Russian goons by the pyramids. Let's not forget the impressive somersault with rifle in hand at Stacy's house.

    @DarthDimi, thanks for making this a general thread rather than one focusing on that joker Elvis. Now we can have some appreciation for those other stellar adversaries, like NicNac, Bullion & Kill.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I'll say more. Herr Mortner wears that evil monocle and speaks with a thick accent. Who inspired him?

    Dr Mindbender, from the GI Joe cartoon?

    or just any evil monocle wearing type?

    But this is the level at which AVTAK is willing to meet us. The henchman is named "Scarpine" and he has a notable scar on his face. The big villain is named "Zorin". Those aren't names you give people. Zorin sounds like a cartoon alien (or an operating system, which it is). Scarpine sounds like Scorpio... Scarpio... Scarpin... Scarpine! Go! Write the script. Evil names. Good enough.

    At least Fleming gave his character some tongue-in-cheek an playful but not at all embarrassing names. Scaramanga, Goldfinger, Pussy Galore, Oddjob, ... The hidden winks as well as the obvious winks are part of the fun. In that same tradition we have Goodhead, Nekros, Onatopp, Jinx and May Day (see? I'm willing to give compliments when there's good reason.) But I'm so glad they called it out in CR: "Vesper. I hope you gave your parents hell for that." Zorin and Scarpine aren't playful or double entendres or whatever. They are a child's mind run free.

    So you are really criticising the names "Scarpine" or "Max Zorin"? I mean come on, this is the normal way how they named villains in the franchise. Why is Nekros a better name? I mean this is nitpicking. It is still far from being "Mr. Kill" or "Strawberry Fields". And I even have nothing against these names.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    @GBF, Nekros actually means something.
    I also criticise Mr. Kil.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    Scarpine can be a nick name because he has a scar. Maybe his real name is something with "....pine" in the end. I think this guy is supposed to be french. Does this really bother you?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    It's part of many - MANY things about the film that are just poor. AVTAK has one of the worst and most incoherent scripts in the entire series.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    GBF wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    The one thing I don't like about Dr. Mortner is his lazy, cartoony death.

    Yep.

    Like they were all just about to go off to the wrap party when someone suddenly said 'Hang on we forgot to kill off Scarpine and Mortner. Err let's just have them do some comedy juggling with some TNT from a Roadrunner cartoon. Sorted. Come on the bar's open.'

    Apart from anything what sort of shit way is that to try and kill someone hanging on the bridge? You have to time throwing it so it sails past Bond just as it goes off. Why not pick up Scarpine's gun up and use that rather than going straight to your fridge full of dynamite (and why would you have that anyway? For some impromptu mine excavating?).

    We slag off SP's writing, and with good reason, but this is so poor. Even P&W would've come up with something better.

    Don't know what you mean. It is not a major plot point, anyway. But if all villains reacted in a serious way Bond would not be alive. I think we can agree on that. As I said this old man is probably not a very smart super villain who knows how to kill someone the easiest way. Anyway he is not that stupid. As long as Bond stays under the pipe, he cannot shoot him from the Blimp. Throwing dynamit is however very affective. Because the explosion would make him fall from the bridge. The whole scene is also not that different from the death of the guy in the helicopter in FRWL.

    How is it very effective? Unless you can judge the time of detonation to the nearest half second (difficult with a grenade with a set time fuse and with a dynamite fuse practically impossible) it either blows up to soon and Bond is shielded by the pipe or too late and then it blows up half way down to the road deck. You have to judge it to explode at precisely the moment it flies past Bond which is exceedingly difficult.

    If there was somewhere for it to land so it was near Bond it would be fine but wherever he throws it it will be less than a second when it is in range of Bond before it falls.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    edited February 2016 Posts: 1,984
    bondjames wrote: »
    I love that scene linked to above of Moore Bond kicking Sandor. One of several excellent fights by Sir Roger Moore throughout his storied career. Such intensity.

    Wait, what? Intensity? I'm shocked, lol. Positively shocked.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    I love that scene linked to above of Moore Bond kicking Sandor. One of several excellent fights by Sir Roger Moore throughout his storied career. Such intensity.

    Wait, what? Intensity? I'm shocked, lol. Positively shocked.

    Quite.

    The only fight less intense is the other one @bondjames bizarrely cites between the two KGB guys at the pyramids. The 'knockout' blow Rog delivers to the final guy would be lucky to floor the average premier league player if the were in the penalty area and a goal down in the 90th minute.

    God knows I love Rog but by and large his fights were extremely choreographed and stagey. 'Intense' is not a word I would use to describe any of them.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Roger's later fight scenes had about as much intensity as this:

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I think Moore's fighting skills are unnecessarily maligned on these threads. Sure, he's no Craig or Connery or even Lazenby, but I found his fights far more memorable than Brosnan's (except for the Alec one) and Dalton's (did he even have a hand to hand fight in any of his films?).

    It's true that he moved somewhat lumberly in his later years, but I found the TMWTGG fight in Saida's room and the two aforementioned fights in TSWLM quite intense. Ivan and Boris at the pyramids were soundly thrashed. I always look forward to them when I put in a copy of the respective blu's. The magnificent exotic settings and scores may of course be swaying me a little





  • Posts: 11,189
    That last one from TMWTGG is half decent, however that rooftop one from TSWLM is laughably bad. Those first two punches Moore makes clearly don't make contact.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    I am probably the only one who likes the RM fight in Stacey Sutton's house. It is not that intense bit I like it because of the score and the rock salt joke...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I liked it too, because of Moore's somersault with the rifle on the upper floor. It also had the 'let's not damage the artifact in the process' joke that was a staple of Rog's fights (it's in MR as well).
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    It's part of many - MANY things about the film that are just poor. AVTAK has one of the worst and most incoherent scripts in the entire series.

    I don't think it is very incoherent. Most things happen for a reason. Of course the film as all Bond films contains many unrealistic or even impossible sequences but I never felt that the charecters's motivations and actions are completely implausible.

  • Posts: 11,189
    bondjames wrote: »
    I liked it too, because of Moore's somersault with the rifle on the upper floor. It also had the 'let's not damage the artifact in the process' joke that was a staple of Rog's fights (it's in MR as well).

    The editing and stunt doubling in that fight scene is terrible.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited February 2016 Posts: 24,179
    GBF wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    It's part of many - MANY things about the film that are just poor. AVTAK has one of the worst and most incoherent scripts in the entire series.

    I don't think it is very incoherent. Most things happen for a reason. Of course the film as all Bond films contains many unrealistic or even impossible sequences but I never felt that the charecters's motivations and actions are completely implausible.

    - Why must Aubergine die? Is soon-to-be leader of the microchip market Zorin afraid of a French PI digging up some horse racing dirt? Who cares? That's like Bin Laden getting worried over a speeding ticket.
    - If Zorin wants to stay low, why is he himself picking up May Day, on the Seine, parachuting in broad daylight in Paris from the Eiffel Tower after publicly committing a murder? (Because we're not even going to wait for Aubergine to get home and kill him in the privates of his own house.)
    - I mean, if a lousy PI must die because of some horse racing crap possibly drawing attention to Zorin, why does Zorin attempt to kill two members of the British Secret Service? That's a declaration of war.
    - Speaking of which, why must the British Secret Service dig into horse race cheating? Eh, wasn't there something about - I dunno - microchips and the threat of nuclear fallout and EMP and such?
    - Why is Zorin suspect number 1 because a Zorin manufactured microchip was found in Siberia? (If a Windows computer was found in a terrorist camp, did Bill Gates do it?) Oh wait, the leak came when he took over. Yeah, great evidence.
    - Why is Chuck Lee selling fish? I mean, Chuck Lee - CIA, meeting the legendary James Bond. Let's see, we've got hotel rooms, hotel lobbies, parks, boats, ... Nope, we prefer the difficult way. Good to see time and effort was spent on setting up a cover... on American soil.
    ...

    Things happen for a reason, no doubt. But it makes no sense at all. And people complain about MR...
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I liked it too, because of Moore's somersault with the rifle on the upper floor. It also had the 'let's not damage the artifact in the process' joke that was a staple of Rog's fights (it's in MR as well).

    The editing and stunt doubling in that fight scene is terrible.

    I heard it before, yet I have never noticed the stunt doubles in that sequence. That's why I never bothered it.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    It's part of many - MANY things about the film that are just poor. AVTAK has one of the worst and most incoherent scripts in the entire series.

    I don't think it is very incoherent. Most things happen for a reason. Of course the film as all Bond films contains many unrealistic or even impossible sequences but I never felt that the charecters's motivations and actions are completely implausible.

    - Why must Aubergine die? Is soon-to-be leader of the microchip market Zorin afraid of a French PI digging up some horse racing dirt? Who cares? That's like Bin Laden getting worried over a speeding ticket.
    - If Zorin wants to stay low, why is he himself picking up May Day, on the Seine, parachuting in broad daylight in Paris from the Eiffel Tower after publicly committing a murder? (Because we're not even going to wait for Aubergine to get home and kill him in the privates of his own house.)
    - I mean, if a lousy PI must die because of some horse racing crap possibly drawing attention to Zorin, why does Zorin attempt to kill two members of the British Secret Service? That's a declaration of war.
    - Speaking of which, why must the British Secret Service dig into horse race cheating? Eh, wasn't there something about - I dunno - microchips and the threat of nuclear fallout and EMP and such?
    - Why is Zorin suspect number 1 because a Zorin manufactured microchip was found in Siberia? (If a Windows computer was found in a terrorist camp, did Bill Gates do it?) Oh wait, the leak came when he took over. Yeah, great evidence.
    - Why is Chuck Lee selling fish? I mean, Chuck Lee - CIA, meeting the legendary James Bond. Let's see, we've got hotel rooms, hotel lobbies, parks, boats, ... Nope, we prefer the difficult way. Good to see time and effort was spent on setting up a cover... on American soil.
    ...

    Things happen for a reason, no doubt. But it makes no sense at all. And people complain about MR...

    These are all acceptable complaints. I think it is not a good idea to look at all these in detail. I think the plot is not very intelligent by any means but it is still somewhat consistent. There are no obvious plot holes and anyway the film does not take itself too seriously. Most Bond films usually have such unrealistic elements to give us some action sequences and keep Bond from dying early in the film. You could make a list of every Bond film mentioning all the hundreds of unlogic plot points. Just a few exmaples. Why is the villain in almost every second Bond film having dinner with Bond instead of just killing him? Why does he not kill him easily but in a very overcomplicated way giving him the chance to survive? Why do most villains tell Bond about their evil plans? Why does Bond introduce himself as "Bond, james Bond" isntead of staying undercover? You see there are many of such implausible "Bondian" elements in the franchise. But without them most films were just boring.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited February 2016 Posts: 24,179
    @GBF, true enough, however in AVTAK I feel there are far more than average of these silly things. Every Bond film makes a few of these forgiveable mistakes but AVTAK makes far too many. Half of the film dives into sub plots that go nowhere. When Bond and Zorin are fighting on top of the Golden Gate, I keep waiting for Bond to go, "this is bacause Pegasus won instead of Fluke!"

    Compare this to Glen's other films. There's silliness in all four of them, but in acceptable doses. I never loved the jokes in the Spain car chase of FYEO; neither do I like the jokes in the market place fight in OP; glad we dodged the flying carpet bullet in TLD; and some of Q's stuff in LTK hurts my feelings. But there's so much in those films that could be called clever, original, logical, ... Unfortunately, there's so little of that in AVTAK.

    For the record, I don't hate AVTAK. There's so much to enjoy. But when I'm in a script-sensitive mood, it's arguably my least favorite Bond film.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @GBF, true enough, however in AVTAK I feel there are far more than average of these silly things. Every Bond film makes a few of these forgiveable mistakes but AVTAK makes far too many. Half of the film dives into sub plots that go nowhere. When Bond and Zorin are fighting on top of the Golden Gate, I keep waiting for Bond to go, "this is bacause Pegasus won instead of Fluke!"

    Compare this to Glen's other films. There's silliness in all four of them, but in acceptable doses. I never loved the jokes in the Spain car chase of FYEO; neither do I like the jokes in the market place fight in OP; glad we dodged the flying carpet bullet in TLD; and some of Q's stuff in LTK hurts my feelings. But there's so much in those films that could be called clever, original, logical, ... Unfortunately, there's so little of that in AVTAK.

    For the record, I don't hate AVTAK. There's so much to enjoy. But when I'm in a script-sensitive mood, it's arguably my least favorite Bond film.

    You're probably right with the subplot going nowhere. At least it had something to do with the microchips but yes certainly a liitle bit too far from the main plot. On the other hand I quiet liked it that they revealed the main plot not too early in the film. But probably they could have fixed the subplot better to the final main plot....
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited September 2016 Posts: 9,020
    THIS HAS TO BE RESURRECTED

    ELVIS and why he changed the Bond franchise forever

    In 2008 Marc Forster, the Swiss director, knew he had to do something truly spectacular, something daring, something never done before. He thought long and hard and then it hit him like an avalanche in the Swiss Alps.

    Cast a Swiss guy from Zurich as a henchman. It just happened Anatole was Marc's friend so it was a natural choice.

    Furthermore, the Piz Gloria wasn't free for filming, but Anatole Taubman really is the next best thing that came to mind.

    Forster immediately recognised Taubman's vast talent. Not dissimilar in handling a gun like Craig does Forster made sure Anatole will have his "Bond" moment as can be seen nicely in below pictures.

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    The Swiss-German touch.

    But that wasn't enough of course, so Mr. Forster and Mr. Taubman sat together for a while to make a master plane on how to change the Bond franchise forever.
    While drinking some milk and reading the "Blick" (Switzerland's version of The Sun) Anatole received a call by his mother who told him to get a half pound of white bread and some cheese, preferably Emmentaler, on the way back to home.

    When he put the phone down he and Forster just looked at each other, deep into each other's eyes. No words were needed, everything was becoming clear and Forster and Taubman just left with the knowledge something truly spectacular had just occurred.

    So it happened that Elvis does speak Swiss-German in his very first scene. He is on the phone with his mother asking her if she needs anything that he could bring back home.
    Of course he gets distracted and has to tell his mother that he will call her back.

    This daring short but memorable scene has written history. Not only is it the first time ever that Swiss-German actually gets spoken in an MGM Movie but of course it never happened in a Bond movie before and probably never will again.

    Elvis calling his mother back was filmed as well. The five minute conversation is rumoured to be the most daring film experiment ever but sadly in the editing process it had to go because Forster and the producers realised it would disrupt the non-stop action theme of the movie and also the audience would never recover from the hilarity of it.
    That it had to go because the movie would have gotten too lengthy is a nasty rumour by the way.

    The Toupee.

    One could think Elvis wearing a toupee was just meant as a joke. Nothing could be further from the truth.
    In fact it is one of the greatest homages ever made in a Bond movie.
    A homage to the incomparable, unforgettable, one and only Sir Sean "The Toupee" Connery.

    The human behind the henchman.

    There is a lot more to Elvis' few scenes than meets the eye at first.
    The character is very complex and it's Marc Forster's and Anatole Taubman's way to underline the cruelty of feeling and being useless, being treated as a doormat by your boss and colleagues and being the "odd" guy, unpopular and unwanted.

    Elvis feels utterly worthless, underused, or belittled and it's the theme of his life.
    It's a really great touch to the movie that is fast paced and relentlessly action driven.

    When Elvis smiles at the guy at Tosca he just flashes him a dirty look back. How many times had this happened to you as well, it's not a good feeling and the drama in this little instant of the movie elevated Quantum Of Solace to a true classic.
    And the other deeply dramatic moment in the film when Elvis is on the plane with the CIA. He asks about the flight time and he just gets ignored. Worse than that Felix Leiter stares at him like he was invisible.
    Another milestone in dramatic story telling without words.

    But there is even more in store for the cinephile that likes subtle nuanced drama.

    Losing his toupee after he falls down the stairs at the hand of a woman, well leg really, is deeply disturbing and equivalent to losing his manhood.

    As if that wasn't enough, the poor soul even gets used as a human shield in the desert hotel by his boss.
    A great deal of money went into that very short scene when Forster made sure that the latest and best special effects would be used to show Elvis standing there, first getting his pants and toupee blown away by the explosion which makes him literally standing naked in front of the world up and down there and furthermore this humiliation is the last thing he experiences as he then gets incinerated in the flames.

    This is heavy stuff, that only a superior director like Marc Forster can do.

    You could be Elvis.

    With Elvis they created the ultimate underdog henchman, a man who just wants to be loved or at least feeling appreciated for the hard work he's doing for his boss.
    Seeing him talking to his mom on the phone in the first scene makes him human immediately, a guy next door that could be you or me who just happens to be working for the wrong guy and company.
    This is so much better than those totally unrealistic, sometimes almost comic book style henchman like Oddjob, Stamper, Hinx, Jaws and so many more of them.

    Furthermore Mr. Forster made sure, Elvis would always be there on the screen wherever Dominic Greene would go. There is this deep sense of loyalty in Elvis for Mr. Greene, it's admiration and maybe even some kind of love. The way Elvis gazes at Dominic speaks volumes but yet is a subtle way to bring some human element into a film that is heavily pumped by hard on action.
    Never ever does Elvis realise that this is an unrequited love and that he will always feel empty inside.

    Look at those pictures below and see how incredibly fine acting can bring something special to a movie that at first sight seems to rely solely on its main star, the 00 agent with a licence to kill.


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    My favourite shot. Elvis seemingly adjusting his tie by chance, but this is not a man just wanting to be dressed properly, this is a man wanting to please his boss, maybe even getting a nice compliment by him, how lovely he looks in that tux. The expression on his face shows us a naive, but yet, lovable man, that just chose the wrong path, a path that will eventually have him go up in flames.
    full.jpg

    The franchise has been changed. It has the human element now, thanks to the daring director and actor that made it all possible.

    It's easy to see who is the secret star in that picture below. Olga realises it of course. It is said they had quite a romp together when filming QoS and that Craig was quite a bit jealous of Anatole.

    full.jpg

    So please, my dear friends, do not just dismiss this fabulous character that enriches the franchise so much when you will view Quantum Of Solace the next time.
    Watch out for Elvis, see how he cares about his mother on the phone, how he wants to be appreciated, how he is loyal to his cruel boss. How he will rather lose his pants than letting come some harm to Mr. Greene.
    In the end it kills him and that is commendable. Let's celebrate his death by cheering and clapping the next time you see that scene.

    Elvis has left the building, but he hasn't left our hearts.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    Thank you for that moving post. I shall consider him at the next best henchman tournament
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Elvis lives!
  • First some wacky fellow posts an appreciation for Bibi Dahl in the "Does this Movie Make Any Sense?" thread -- and now Elvis gets his day in the sun. I'm waiting for a re-appraisal of the guy double-taking at the wine bottle any day now....
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    We always loved him.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Wasn't there some thread dedicated to this loser as well? I recall seeing it at some point. Hopefully it has been closed.
  • MrcogginsMrcoggins Following in the footsteps of Quentin Quigley.
    Posts: 3,144
    Well it's a one for the money two for the show !...
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited September 2016 Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    Wasn't there some thread dedicated to this loser as well? I recall seeing it at some point. Hopefully it has been closed.

    You're in it right now...

    Congratulations for being instrumental in its revitalization.
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