Is a black James Bond inevitable ?

1567911

Comments

  • edited January 2013 Posts: 3,327
    RC7 wrote:
    Totally agree with this. I could never now accept seeing seeing Axel Foley as white in a new movie.

    Axel Foley is Eddie Murphy though right?

    Bond is a 60 year old character that has been pushed and pulled in so many different directions that any number of incarnations spring to mind. He can moulded. My point (not necessarily directed at yourself) is that, if the character of Bond is written as it is in CR for example, but played by Idris Elba, does it make it worse? If it's exactly the same character, exactly the same history, but black skin?

    In the 60's it wouldn't have worked, for obvious historical reasons. Given that there are many black people, of second, even third generation in positions of power and undoubtedly in the service, is it not reasonable to assume a series that prides itself on reflecting the modern world we live in, could pitch a black man as it's key protagonist.

    I get the Fleming purity angle, I'm just confused by people's arguments that seem to suggest the problem is skin colour, because as I've stated above, the modern Bond lives in 2013 and in 2013 black people work for her majesty's secret service.

    I still think ethnic backgrounds do bring something extra/different to certain roles. There is a certain coolness about Eddie Murphy's Axel Foley that I don't think a white actor could emulate, but I think a black actor similar to Murphy could (Will Smith for example).

    As for Bond, its more to do with my obsession with the original books. If I had it my way, the characters in the novels would appear on screen exactly as Fleming wrote them in the books. Goldfinger and Oddjob appear exactly as I imagined them in the novels, so does Rosa Klebb and Irma Bunt.

    I still have issues with Craig having blonde hair, because he doesn't match the description of Fleming's Bond.

    I'm probably being old-fashioned and stuck in my ways with these views, I know.

  • 002002
    Posts: 581
    3rwgxk.jpg

  • RC7 wrote:
    Totally agree with this. I could never now accept seeing seeing Axel Foley as white in a new movie.

    Axel Foley is Eddie Murphy though right?

    Bond is a 60 year old character that has been pushed and pulled in so many different directions that any number of incarnations spring to mind. He can moulded. My point (not necessarily directed at yourself) is that, if the character of Bond is written as it is in CR for example, but played by Idris Elba, does it make it worse? If it's exactly the same character, exactly the same history, but black skin?

    In the 60's it wouldn't have worked, for obvious historical reasons. Given that there are many black people, of second, even third generation in positions of power and undoubtedly in the service, is it not reasonable to assume a series that prides itself on reflecting the modern world we live in, could pitch a black man as it's key protagonist.

    I get the Fleming purity angle, I'm just confused by people's arguments that seem to suggest the problem is skin colour, because as I've stated above, the modern Bond lives in 2013 and in 2013 black people work for her majesty's secret service.

    I still think ethnic backgrounds do bring something extra/different to certain roles. There is a certain coolness about Eddie Murphy's Axel Foley that I don't think a white actor could emulate, but I think a black actor similar to Murphy could (Will Smith for example).

    As for Bond, its more to do with my obsession with the original books. If I had it my way, the characters in the novels would appear on screen exactly as Fleming wrote them in the books. Goldfinger and Oddjob appear exactly as I imagined them in the novels, so does Rosa Klebb and Irma Bunt.

    I still have issues with Craig having blonde hair, because he doesn't match the description of Fleming's Bond.

    I'm probably being old-fashioned and stuck in my ways with these views, I know.

    This is where my point of public perception came in, you remember the hostility Daniel Craig suffered before the release of Casino Royale, but today the blonde hair is forgotten because the world has accepted him as Bond, still white & hetro though!
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Ben Sisko is James Bond!
    Hippocrates_Noah_with_guns.jpg
  • Posts: 135
    002 wrote:
    3rwgxk.jpg

    can't argue with that....
  • Posts: 135
    Murdock wrote:
    Ben Sisko is James Bond!
    Hippocrates_Noah_with_guns.jpg

    sorry for the double post, but I can't argue with that either...
  • Posts: 3,327
    This is where my point of public perception came in, you remember the hostility Daniel Craig suffered before the release of Casino Royale, but today the blonde hair is forgotten because the world has accepted him as Bond, still white & hetro though!

    The hair colour is just enough for me to get over, mainly because Craig's eyes look like I imagined they would look in the novels. There is still an essence of Fleming's Bond that I see when I look at Craig.

    I don't honestly believe I would get that same feeling when looking at a black actor portraying Bond. Bond is white, with blue eyes, a cruel face and dark hair.

    With Connery and Lazenby they got it partly right, as they both have dark eyes. Moore's hair was too fair. Dalton and Brosnan are probably the closest to how Fleming wrote Bond in terms of appearance.



  • Posts: 135
    I think if a black actor ever does portray 007, it probably won't be anytime soon. I mean right now Moneypenny and Felix Leiter are both being portrayed by black actors and I feel like it would just be an overwhelming racial shift too quickly. I do feel bad for the first black actor to pick up the role, because he'll probably be known as "the black Bond" for the rest of his life.

    I guess I should post a disclaimer and say that I am absolutely not racist (my boyfriend is half black).
  • edited January 2013 Posts: 12,837
    @jetsetwilly Maybe that's why I feel differently to you. I was introduced to Bond through the films (although it was TLD, so a fairly close to Fleming film) and although I've read almost all the books now I prefer the movies.
    RC7 wrote:
    Bond is a 60 year old character that has been pushed and pulled in so many different directions that any number of incarnations spring to mind. He can moulded. My point (not necessarily directed at yourself) is that, if the character of Bond is written as it is in CR for example, but played by Idris Elba, does it make it worse? If it's exactly the same character, exactly the same history, but black skin?

    In the 60's it wouldn't have worked, for obvious historical reasons. Given that there are many black people, of second, even third generation in positions of power and undoubtedly in the service, is it not reasonable to assume a series that prides itself on reflecting the modern world we live in, could pitch a black man as it's key protagonist.

    I get the Fleming purity angle, I'm just confused by people's arguments that seem to suggest the problem is skin colour, because as I've stated above, the modern Bond lives in 2013 and in 2013 black people work for her majesty's secret service.

    Completely agree. This is the point I've been making/trying to make.
    Quantum07 wrote:
    I think if a black actor ever does portray 007, it probably won't be anytime soon. I mean right now Moneypenny and Felix Leiter are both being portrayed by black actors and I feel like it would just be an overwhelming racial shift too quickly

    I think that's true. We won't get a black Bond while there's still a black moneypenny and a black Felix (although will these actors even stay on after the Craig era or will it be like the Brosnan era, when the actors changed? We'll see I guess).
  • Data_ThiefData_Thief Banned
    edited January 2013 Posts: 75
    Hi all been away for a couple of weeks, my observation on this for all it's worth is that to hell with all the political correctness BS, Bond is and will always be a Caucasian heterosexual male because of public perception.

    Because movies are so prevalent in the modern human psyche that is to say, once a character is accepted by the movie going public you'd have to be an idiot to change that perception without risking your box office, which no studio will do.

    Classic example is Alex Cross, white in the novels, black as played brilliantly by Morgan Freeman in the fist two movies, however in the most recent reboot did they revert to the novels, no they cast Tyler Perry, a black african american.

    My point is neither racist or political, it's mearly a fact of life, once a perception is realised & concrete, it would take a major work of art to change that perception.

    Hence Bond will always be white & Axel Foley will always be black.

    IMO This discussion is done end it now.


    AMEN ! FINALLY SOMEBODY ON HERE WITH SOME SENSE

    How about making Bond a gay black woman?

    that way EON covers all political correctness and everybody is happy !!!
  • RC7RC7
    edited January 2013 Posts: 10,512
    Data_Thief wrote:
    Hi all been away for a couple of weeks, my observation on this for all it's worth is that to hell with all the political correctness BS, Bond is and will always be a Caucasian heterosexual male because of public perception.

    Because movies are so prevalent in the modern human psyche that is to say, once a character is accepted by the movie going public you'd have to be an idiot to change that perception without risking your box office, which no studio will do.

    Classic example is Alex Cross, white in the novels, black as played brilliantly by Morgan Freeman in the fist two movies, however in the most recent reboot did they revert to the novels, no they cast Tyler Perry, a black african american.

    My point is neither racist or political, it's mearly a fact of life, once a perception is realised & concrete, it would take a major work of art to change that perception.

    Hence Bond will always be white & Axel Foley will always be black.

    IMO This discussion is done end it now.


    AMEN ! FINALLY SOMEBODY ON HERE WITH SOME SENSE

    You should count yourself lucky @SpectreNumberOne, this happens very rarely. Like contracting AIDS.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Data_Thief wrote:
    AMEN ! FINALLY SOMEBODY ON HERE WITH SOME SENSE

    How about making Bond a gay black woman?

    that way EON covers all political correctness and everybody is happy !!!

    New-Meme-Good-Troll_o_108143.jpg
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    When Tobey Maguire was cast as Peter Parker, my only real problem was that his eyes were blue, not brown (everyone knows his eyes are brown, heh heh), and when Brandon Routh was cast as Superman, my only problem with HIM was that his eyes were brown, not blue.
    If they ever make a Black Panther movie (Marvel superhero), and they cast it with some WHITE dude, I will refuse to see it.
    Soooo...... a short blond white guy is ALREADY pushing it, Bond-wise IMO. :))
  • Two words: Black Batman. :P
  • edited January 2013 Posts: 3,327
    @jetsetwilly Maybe that's why I feel differently to you. I was introduced to Bond through the films (although it was TLD, so a fairly close to Fleming film) and although I've read almost all the books now I prefer the movies.

    The franchise has survived for 50 years by keeping the character himself slightly dated and old-fashioned in many ways. Sure, they gave him dark humour, one-liners and the ocassional gadget (which cropped in the novels too from time-to-time), but underneath you still get the impression of an Etonian Imperialist with refined taste and an old-fashioned behaviour towards women. To me, all the actors have brought this to the role, even Aussie Lazenby.

    Bond's world around him has changed over the years, but he has remained fundamentaly the same. I think you would lose that Fleming essence if Bond suddenly became black. Once that is gone, then the character will be James Bond in name only. It will then be more of a generic action hero, with nothing remotely to do with Fleming anymore. How would the novel LALD stand up if Bond was black? The storyline just wouldn't work.

    Craig's portrayal has actually brought the character closer to Fleming's 1950's hero than ever before, and SF is now the most successful Bond film of all time (or soon will be), so there is still an appetite for the dated, old-fashioned character that Fleming wrote about.

    I don't see any reason right now why you would want to change that in any way....but maybe that's just me.



  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Two words: Black Batman. :P
    Two more words: No way.
  • brinkeguthriebrinkeguthrie Piz Gloria
    Posts: 1,400
    Bond = white British guy. No other way period.
  • Data_ThiefData_Thief Banned
    Posts: 75
    @jetsetwilly Maybe that's why I feel differently to you. I was introduced to Bond through the films (although it was TLD, so a fairly close to Fleming film) and although I've read almost all the books now I prefer the movies.

    The franchise has survived for 50 years by keeping the character himself slightly dated and old-fashioned in many ways. Sure, they gave him dark humour, one-liners and the ocassional gadget (which cropped in the novels too from time-to-time), but underneath you still get the impression of an Etonian Imperialist with refined taste and an old-fashioned behaviour towards women. To me, all the actors have brought this to the role, even Aussie Lazenby.

    Bond's world around him has changed over the years, but he has remained fundamentaly the same. I think you would lose that Fleming essence if Bond suddenly became black. Once that is gone, then the character will be James Bond in name only. It will then be more of a generic action hero, with nothing remotely to do with Fleming anymore. How would the novel LALD stand up if Bond was black? The storyline just wouldn't work.

    Craig's portrayal has actually brought the character closer to Fleming's 1950's hero than ever before, and SF is now the most successful Bond film of all time (or soon will be), so there is still an appetite for the dated, old-fashioned character that Fleming wrote about.

    I don't see any reason right now why you would want to change that in any way....but maybe that's just me.



    your absolutley right, you just destroyed RC7's whole argument. great post
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    @jetsetwilly Maybe that's why I feel differently to you. I was introduced to Bond through the films (although it was TLD, so a fairly close to Fleming film) and although I've read almost all the books now I prefer the movies.

    The franchise has survived for 50 years by keeping the character himself slightly dated and old-fashioned in many ways. Sure, they gave him dark humour, one-liners and the ocassional gadget (which cropped in the novels too from time-to-time), but underneath you still get the impression of an Etonian Imperialist with refined taste and an old-fashioned behaviour towards women. To me, all the actors have brought this to the role, even Aussie Lazenby.

    Bond's world around him has changed over the years, but he has remained fundamentaly the same. I think you would lose that Fleming essence if Bond suddenly became black. Once that is gone, then the character will be James Bond in name only. It will then be more of a generic action hero, with nothing remotely to do with Fleming anymore. How would the novel LALD stand up if Bond was black? The storyline just wouldn't work.

    Craig's portrayal has actually brought the character closer to Fleming's 1950's hero than ever before, and SF is now the most successful Bond film of all time (or soon will be), so there is still an appetite for the dated, old-fashioned character that Fleming wrote about.

    I don't see any reason right now why you would want to change that in any way....but maybe that's just me.



    If Craig's Bond was genuinely Fleming-esque, he would have treated Wright's, Leiter, very differently. Perhaps it's best to evolve rather than stand still.
  • Posts: 3,327
    Two words: Black Batman. :P

    I don't think I would be able to accept that either. I grew up with the DC Comics, and I could only ever see Bruce Wayne being white, with dark hair. Keaton was badly miscast. Bale is closest to how I imagined him from the comics.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    chrisisall wrote:
    Two words: Black Batman. :P
    Two more words: No way.

    I'm Blackman!

  • Posts: 3,327
    RC7 wrote:
    If Craig's Bond was genuinely Fleming-esque, he would have treated Wright's, Leiter, very differently. Perhaps it's best to evolve rather than stand still.

    Not sure on that, as Fleming's Bond often had black men in the novels as allies who help him out. Quarrel was his very close right-hand man in two novels, and Bond is seething with anger and wanting revenge when Quarrel is murdered in Dr. No.
  • @jetsetwilly I don't want things to change right now, I loved SF and I want them to keep Craig for as long as possible., I just don't think it would matter if Bond was black in the future because of the reasons I've mentioned.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote:
    If Craig's Bond was genuinely Fleming-esque, he would have treated Wright's, Leiter, very differently. Perhaps it's best to evolve rather than stand still.

    Not sure on that, as Fleming's Bond often had black men in the novels as allies who help him out. Quarrel was his very close right-hand man in two novels, and Bond is seething with anger and wanting revenge when Quarrel is murdered in Dr. No.

    I'm very familiar with the novels, I read them over again every year. I wasn't suggesting Wright would not be an ally, but in Fleming world, Bond would consider him inferior. It's no secret Fleming was an imperialist, embodying the traits that naturally came with that.
  • Posts: 3,327
    @jetsetwilly I don't want things to change right now, I loved SF and I want them to keep Craig for as long as possible., I just don't think it would matter if Bond was black in the future because of the reasons I've mentioned.
    Fair enough. I know I'm set in my ways when it comes to certain things like Bond. I want the films to be as close to the books as possible, but I realise not everyone thinks like that.

  • RC7 wrote:
    If Craig's Bond was genuinely Fleming-esque, he would have treated Wright's, Leiter, very differently. Perhaps it's best to evolve rather than stand still.
    Maybe at some point he could have told Leiter to fetch his shoes :D
  • Posts: 3,327
    RC7 wrote:
    RC7 wrote:
    If Craig's Bond was genuinely Fleming-esque, he would have treated Wright's, Leiter, very differently. Perhaps it's best to evolve rather than stand still.

    Not sure on that, as Fleming's Bond often had black men in the novels as allies who help him out. Quarrel was his very close right-hand man in two novels, and Bond is seething with anger and wanting revenge when Quarrel is murdered in Dr. No.

    I'm very familiar with the novels, I read them over again every year. I wasn't suggesting Wright would not be an ally, but in Fleming world, Bond would consider him inferior. It's no secret Fleming was an imperialist, embodying the traits that naturally came with that.
    True. The relationship between Felix and Bond in CR and QoS is also nothing very much like the novels either while we are on the subject. It's a strange relationship they have, with very little trust on either side. This was nothing like how Fleming wrote the two of them.

  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote:
    If Craig's Bond was genuinely Fleming-esque, he would have treated Wright's, Leiter, very differently. Perhaps it's best to evolve rather than stand still.
    Maybe at some point he could have told Leiter to fetch his shoes :D


    :D
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    Bond is defined by his nationality, not his race.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote:
    RC7 wrote:
    If Craig's Bond was genuinely Fleming-esque, he would have treated Wright's, Leiter, very differently. Perhaps it's best to evolve rather than stand still.

    Not sure on that, as Fleming's Bond often had black men in the novels as allies who help him out. Quarrel was his very close right-hand man in two novels, and Bond is seething with anger and wanting revenge when Quarrel is murdered in Dr. No.

    I'm very familiar with the novels, I read them over again every year. I wasn't suggesting Wright would not be an ally, but in Fleming world, Bond would consider him inferior. It's no secret Fleming was an imperialist, embodying the traits that naturally came with that.
    True. The relationship between Felix and Bond in CR and QoS is also nothing very much like the novels either while we are on the subject. It's a strange relationship they have, with very little trust on either side. This was nothing like how Fleming wrote the two of them.

    Yeah, they've never done Leiter properly for me.

This discussion has been closed.