SPECTRE - Press reviews and personal reviews (BEWARE! Spoiler reviews allowed)

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  • RC7 wrote: »

    Q being a heterosexual male is sacrosanct?

    I never said Q should be heterosexual. I said Q's sexuality should not enter into a Bond film.
  • RC7RC7
    edited November 2015 Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »

    Q being a heterosexual male is sacrosanct?

    I never said Q should be heterosexual. I said Q's sexuality should not enter into a Bond film.

    But MP's did and the previous M's did. Is that ok?
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Neither do I to be honest, but I think it would be a good step
    to have a gay character in the films.

    Why?

    Given Q's sex life has had zero bearing on any plot for 53 years (save the voicebox thing he made in DAF 'for the kids') what purpose would it serve?

    Bullshit PC for PC's sake.

    How would it even work?

    INT Q's LAB

    Bond: Morning Q.
    Q: Right pay attention 007 - I've decided to come out of the closet as a homosexual.
    Bond: Homosexual? You're joking?
    Q: I never joke about my sexuality 007.
    Bond: Ok fair enough. So what? Do you have some gadgets for me as usual?
    Q: Yes. Here's your new Aston and watch.
    Bond: OK lets just carry on as normal then.

    Utterly pointless.

    Yep bull shit PC for P 's sake.

    As I noted earlier - The point was that it wouldn't be PC to see a similar scene to the MP phone scene, where instead Q had a bloke in his bed. Just because a character is gay doesn't mean it has to be their defining trait, it can be a subtle nod. No one is saying the pet shop boys have to be playing in the background.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 4,615
    Very interesting direction re the topic of homosexuality in Bond and how defensive some are. I think there are parallels with the roles of woman in movies and I am, sure that there were those who thought that strong roles for women or ethnic minorities within movies was just bowing to PC liberalism. (Star Trek came under fire when Kirk kissed a black woman for goodness sake, with hindsight, dont those critics look a little silly now?) In a way, this is a perfect example of the dilemma that the franchise faces. The contrast between the traditional Bond and the values of his time and updating Bond into the modern World. A World where people are openly gay with no fear of judgement, its a non event. How long would it be, for example, before Bond was invited to a gay wedding? I suspect its a "bridge too far" at the moment. A female double 0 agent would be the next logical step in bringing Bond further up to date.
    OR this could be a big advantage of taking Bond back to the sixties as we dont have to deal with any of these issues, we can have our old fashioned Bond back where he belongs and all of the gays can stay firmly in the closet.
  • RC7 wrote: »

    But MP's did and the previous M's did. Is that ok?

    It may have escaped your notice but MP's been flirting with Bond in every single film. That's part of Bond.

    M's husband being there was incidental. The difference is you want Q to be gay to make a political statement i.e. that the service is all modern and diverse now. That seems to me to be wrong.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Yes, good points @patb . That's the great thing about friendly discussion, it can
    Wander to all sorts of places. :)
  • Posts: 4,615
    Having a character within any movie who is openly gay is not a political statement. its reflecting modern life
  • RC7RC7
    edited November 2015 Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »

    But MP's did and the previous M's did. Is that ok?

    It may have escaped your notice but MP's been flirting with Bond in every single film. That's part of Bond.

    M's husband being there was incidental. The difference is you want Q to be gay to make a political statement i.e. that the service is all modern and diverse now. That seems to me to be wrong.

    Find me the comment where I said that. Go on. Find it.

    patb wrote: »
    Very interesting direction re the topic of homosexuality in Bond and how defensive some are. I think there are parallels with the roles of woman in movies and I am, sure that there were those who thought that strong roles for women or ethnic minorities within movies was just bowing to PC liberalism.
    patb wrote: »
    Having a character within any movie who is openly gay is not a political statement. its reflecting modern life

    Perfectly said.
  • Posts: 6,601
    I put this here, as many are reading here.

    Does anybody else wonder, where Marketto is? He posted his "I loved the film" short review and I haven't seen him ever since. Unusual IMO.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Germanlady wrote: »
    I put this here, as many are reading here.

    Does anybody else wonder, where Marketto is? He posted his "I loved the film" short review and I haven't seen him ever since. Unusual IMO.

    He is just back in Brazil. I'm assuming he'll be checking in soon. We spent some time together in London and on the red carpet where he got some superb photos!
  • @RC7: I'm glad we've had this discussion and it's remained civil. I inferred you wanted it to be political because I have no idea why else you would include it. You have talked about it being a nod. A nod to whom, presumably the audience, which again suggest a political motive.

    @patb talks about the next step in updating bond. If you agree with him, then yes it's political. It's got nothing to do with character/plot development, you want to 'update' Bond to make it PC and stick two fingers up at those who like traditional Bond.

    @patb Please don't call me defensive. I've already given the example of Wint and Kidd as characters who I don't have a problem being gay because guess what, it was relevant to their characters. They were a duo united by sadism and love. Having a gay wedding or a female 00 agent for the sake of being modern is utterly wrong. I'm baffled you can't see that.

  • DariusDarius UK
    Posts: 354

    'The love story was about as convincing as Attack of The Clones'

    Oooooh that stings.

    Trouble is he's not that far off the mark. Not quite as bad because Lea and Dan are in a different league acting wise to Natalie and Hayden and even P&W's best hack writing can't plumb the depths of George's dismal dialogue.

    It's not just "not far off the mark", it has hit the nail right on the head. The relationship between Bond and Swann is underdeveloped at best and reprehensibly treated at worst.

    I've desisted from writing a review for the forum until I've had the chance to see the movie again (an extended trip to the US has prevented a sooner second watching), but my big reservation about SP on just one viewing is the two-dimensional character of Madeleine Swann and the poorly developed love affair between her and Bond. One moment, their relationship is prickly at best and the next they're sharing dirty martinis and one-liners. And then, Mr Hinx (is that his name? -- he's never acknowledged as such) breaks up the party with a completely gratuitous, if not well choreographed and executed, fight. After this, they jump into the sack and, wham, bam, thank you ma'am, we're expected to believe their love is as deep as that between Bond and Vesper in CR. This, in my opinion, is really what makes the "I love you" line in the later torture scene a real cringer, if ever there were one. Goodness me, it even outdoes "Yo momma" from DAD, and that's a huge admission because I believe that DAD is a rightly vilified movie.

    A post-CR audience expects more from a Bond movie now than "Bond beds leading lady and she then falls in love with him" mentality. In this sense, CR is very much a victim of its own success when it comes to subsequent movies. Bond may have appealed to Pussy's implied Freudian maternal instincts back in 1965, but that is not the case now, fifty years later. I'm afraid now, Messrs Broccoli, Wilson, Mendes, Logan, etc., you've got to convince us of the "L" word before bandying it around as a one-liner and expecting us to swallow it.
  • Posts: 6,601
    Putting all together, what I read without having see it (tonite), I would think, that those who aboslutely love it get, what they set out to do, those, who don't are unhappy with that decision to play it this way. Both fair opinions, but it tells me, they actually succeeded with what they wanted, but it may not be, what the overall public wants or expects from a DC Bond film. So, whose to blame? Nobody, all a matter of taste.
    The worst, I might say is, it seems, it lacks soul, of which SF had plenty, that could make up for all its flaws. But the lightness of touch was asked for by many and that's what we got. Noo some find it too light. somehow, they can't win.

    Wonder, what i will think about it. Seeing it tonite.
  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    I'm with @Scaramanga - why do we need to know the sexual orientation of a minor character, let's not have these things getting in the way of the film. I don't care for any backstory for the minor characters it's not needed.
  • RC7RC7
    edited November 2015 Posts: 10,512
    @RC7: I'm glad we've had this discussion and it's remained civil. I inferred you wanted it to be political because I have no idea why else you would include it. You have talked about it being a nod. A nod to whom, presumably the audience, which again suggest a political motive.

    I said 'Just because a character is gay doesn't mean it has to be their defining trait, it can be a subtle nod' ie. a nod to their character. If a man were seen in the back of shot in Q's bed, that would just be a little character moment. You say M's husband being there is incidental, well, so is this. Or do heterosexuals have a monopoly on incidental characters?

    Anyhow this seems to have been blown out of all proportion. This was and still is the point I was making and it has now become a discussion about politicising Bond. It's not, it's just a discussion about character, variety and evolution.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 4,615
    Updating Bond into the 21st Century is not political. Its making the decision to make the movie attractive to the latest generation of movie goers who have little concept of 60s culture. One day, he may get a lift in an electric car. Is that political or the reality of modern society? When a female got the job of M, was that political? No, it reflected reality. To make peoples sexual preferences into a political topic is just not fair IMHO as it is simply reality of how we live our lives.
    I have called no individual withing the forum defensive. "how defensive some are" were my words.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 4,615
    "I've desisted from writing a review for the forum until I've had the chance to see the movie again (an extended trip to the US has prevented a sooner second watching), but my big reservation about SP on just one viewing is the two-dimensional character of Madeleine Swann and the poorly developed love affair between her and Bond. One moment, their relationship is prickly at best and the next they're sharing dirty martinis and one-liners. And then, Mr Hinx (is that his name? -- he's never acknowledged as such) breaks up the party with a completely gratuitous, if not well choreographed and executed, fight. After this, they jump into the sack and, wham, bam, thank you ma'am, we're expected to believe their love is as deep as that between Bond and Vesper in CR. This, in my opinion, is really what makes the "I love you" line in the later torture scene a real cringer, if ever there were one. Goodness me, it even outdoes "Yo momma" from DAD, and that's a huge admission because I believe that DAD is a rightly vilified movie."
    Sir Hillary's wife was sorted all this (have you read about her plot for the next Bond) I agree with all your observations and the only way to sort them is to view them in a different light/context. Was Swann falling in love or seducing Bond for later exploitation? All of your observations are based on the assumption that she is genuine in her feelings for Bond. The "I love you" line could take on a whole different dimension if we go down the genius route of Sir Hillary's wifes concept.
  • @patb Do you remember Anya Amasova (agent X?)? Do you remember Whitt and Kidd?

    These were characters that were included because they were an integral part of the plots, not because they wanted to be PC.

    The day PC liberalism takes Bond for it's own is the day I stop watching modern Bond.

  • edited November 2015 Posts: 4,615
    OK, one last point on this. I would hope that some can see the difference of placing a character within a movie because of a trait/quality and using that as part of the plot or placing them there and having that quality as part of them as that what life is like. So when Felix was played by a black actor, was that used as part of the plot or to make it a PC liberal version? Or is it just reality that some staff within the CIA are black in the same way that some staff within security services are gay (and no longer have to hide this),
    Q mentions he has two cats to feed, a throw away line but it made him more real. For many, having a boyfriend/girlfriend of the same gender as as natural as having a cat. That is the reality of modern life
    as our society evolves and hopefully moves forwards (allowing people to be themselves) and our art forms attempt to reflect this, there will always be friction by some who may feel uncomfortable with such changes.
  • MyNameIsMyBondRnMyNameIsMyBondRn WhereYouLeastExpectMeToBe
    Posts: 221
    "PC liberalism"-it is one thing what PC purports to be, and what PC has the intention or strive to become. Digby is a part of that-what about the role figure-accentuated GAY-?!-who knows..!
  • @patb my last word on this. Maybe they thought Jeffrey Wright would make a good Leiter, like Bernie Casey in NSNA. They didn't necessarily hire him for his colour.

    It's sad that you can't read what I'm saying and instead just imply I'm uncomfortable with change.

    If I was gay or black I wouldn't want to be tokenised in the way you described.

  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    Im a logging off before this discussion turns to Idris Elba. lol
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 389
    As far as I'm concerned the only character who should never be anything other than White, Male & Heterosexual is BOND, all other rolls can be as the producers wish, this isn't predudice it's just common sense.
  • RC7 wrote: »
    Q being a heterosexual male is sacrosanct?

    I think the cinematrographic Q being asexual is a reason he was a kid's favorite character no ? We had to wait until Octopussy to see he didn't mind pretty women IIRC.
  • Im a logging off before this discussion turns to Idris Elba. lol

    no he's too old lol.

    Good point Suivez.

  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »
    Q being a heterosexual male is sacrosanct?

    I think the cinematrographic Q being asexual is a reason he was a kid's favorite character no ? We had to wait until Octopussy to see he didn't mind pretty women IIRC.

    Yes, he's pretty asexual throughout. Desmond shagging was not something I considered as a kid.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I still try not to think about it ! :))
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    I still try not to think about it ! :))

    Ha ha
  • Posts: 2,081
    Oh my goodness... I better just say thumbs up @patb and @RC7, well argued.
  • Well argued? Maybe for a sixth form debating club. The progressives vs the nasty homophobe. How can they lose? haha
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Well argued? Maybe for a sixth form debating club. The progressives vs the nasty homophobe. How can they lose? haha

    No one actually called you anything, you were the one being accusatory. I've no idea who you are, your political leaning, sexuality and I don't really care, it's none of my business. But if you make statements such as...
    Having a female 00 agent for the sake of being modern is utterly wrong. I'm baffled you can't see that.

    You're going to get called out, because it is missing the point entirely. Neither of us are directly advocating it, just stating it's one of the many possibilities when approaching a new Bond film. Anyone is entitled to wallow in the status quo and staunchly defend it, that's their right, but they can't then complain when other people are happy to encourage a little variety. I fail to see how a female 00 agent would degrade the quality of the film and/or the legacy of Bond.

    If a writer wants to include a female 00 agent because they feel the dynamic is interesting and one that hasn't been fully explored I'd like to think they could do that without people jumping down their throats and calling it PC nonsense etc, etc.
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