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Decent suggestions chaps and immeasurably better than what we got.
Regarding @GBF's worries that Madeline has no point what if we dont kill White off in the chalet?
Instead Hinx bursts in on Bond and White's conversation, we have a fight smashing f**k out of the wooden furniture (think the Raiders bar fight with less Nazis) and a finale of Bond being launched off a balcony into the lake with Hinx thinking he's dead. Hinx then kidnaps White for some reason (Blofeld wants to torture him, White has some information they need).
Bond then goes on to Madeline as she is his only link to finding White now. Things proceed as normal (ditch the plane chase and have a chase between cars and Bond on skis) but then with the train fight Bond is again beaten by Hinx who then takes them both to the lair.
At the lair Blofeld reveals himself (as Blofeld - Oberhauser doesnt exist) and we have a dinner sequence with a badly f**ked up White where Blofeld explains everything about his plans and how Quantum was usurped by SPECTRE (I agree with you I dont like it but otherwise Mr White has no reason to be there and if we lose that angle we really are back to square one).
Then we move to the torture room where it is Madeline who is about to be tortured but White coughs up what Blofeld wants to know and is then killed for his trouble. A disappointed Blofeld then decides to torture Bond instead (not sure about all this but I want somebody tortured).
Bond escapes and we have a GE style finale with Bond thwarting things and blowing everything up, Blofeld escaping and a fight to the death between Bond and Hinx.
Ditch the London stuff.
Dont end up with Blofeld in prison as that just means in the next film you have to have him escape.
Still needs plenty of polish but we are getting it into better shape.
I admit the idea about Spectre evolving from Quantum is far-fetched and full of holes but I did want to link SP to CR and QOS because I feel it is unrealistic to introduce a second global omnipotent criminal syndicate and claim that the two are unrelated.
Wizard, I'm quite fond of the idea of not killing White, that would be good. I doubt he could realistically have too many scenes of course since Christensen didn't like CR or QOS and probably only came back on the condition that he'd be killed off. Oh and a ski chase is really overdue I think I've been waiting for one since TWINE, a good one since FYEO.
I thought that they were related?
Either make Oberhauser Blofeld right from the beginning or not at all and let him just be Oberhauser.
With those minor adjustments SPECTRE would be in the league of FRWL and OHMSS.
Personally I love SPECTRE nonetheless, it was the best cinematic experience since GoldenEye.
I am happy that you liked Spectre (more than me) but what do you think about the final climax, especially when compared to Goldeneye? Don't you think it was a bit rushed and that there were too many things going on in the 3rd act? Wouldn't it have been better if the climax had taken place in the crater in the way it was made in GE?
I am probably in the minority but I loved the London climax. Would the movie have ended after the Crater sequence, it would have felt like QOS, too short.
The London climax is very suspenseful, great atmosphere and I love that ruined MI6 building. The set builders have outdone themselves there.
Also the symmetry that Mendes created with starting the movie in a helicopter and ending it with one is just great. The bridge sequence is perfect in my opinion.
Also SP has the best ending of any Bond movie, except maybe OHMSS.
Bond walking towards Swann and then fading out.
The last scene with Bond driving away with Swann in London in that great car.
@jake24
That would have been great. I do like the title SPECTRE but The Death Collector would have been fabulous too!
Youre right. I hadnt noticed that. Thats a directorial flourish worthy of a Kieslowski or an Eisenstein. I take it all back now - SP is actually a work of genius.
Shame Guy Hamilton already did the same thing 41 years earlier with the fun house.
Sorry it is, I mean it in a different context in reply to GBF.
Yes we've seen symmetry before... OP begins with planes and clowns and ends with clowns and planes. DAD begins and ends in North Korea. GF begins and ends with someone being electrocuted.
At the end of the PTS, Bond stares at the ring so. damn. long. We get it, Mendes.
The conference scene goes on forever and misses the fun trope of *Blofeld* killing the errant Spectre member (show him in cahoots with Sciarra in Mexico). Blofeld could summon Hinx to gouge out his eyes.
In Tokyo, why does Tanner rat out Bond to M? He's his best friend in the service! Mendes needed to go back and actually read the books.
Madeleine is a complete bungle. She's actually great when she's cold and haughty in Austria (shades of Tracy) and when she melts a bit/drinks in Tangier, but given that it's the longest Bond movie of all time, there needed to be a few more scenes where she starts falling for Bond before they fall into bed. Cut other scenes to make room for Bond/Madeleine...I humbly suggest all the C/M scenes, which gives the love story a much-needed at least 15 more minutes to breathe if we are to believe that Bond leaves the service for her.
Oberhauser should have just been Oberhauser--his personal vendetta even okay. The dynamic should have been a rough remake of TB, with Oberhauser the neo-Largo and keep Blofeld mostly in the shadows (at least until the crater).
Add consequences to the drilling. Bond loses his memory? Madeleine rescues him a la Tracy at the ice rink?
And on and on...
I think this highlights a particular problem that I have with the film, that they tried to put in too many elements, but none of these is really developed very well. This applies to the torture scene as well as the relationship between Bond and Madeleine and the Bond/Oberhauser backstory. Also the Spectre concept does not really work.
Compared to CR and QOS ,that was inconsistent and annoying....
Not wanting to open up a massive can of worms, but for everyone who hates this, what is the problem?
To me is seems like a bit of hokey melodrama, but it is a bit of a nothing to me.
Re: the C/M scenes: sadly I suspect that this was engineered to give Fiennes something to do (since he objected to being the traitor as per the script leaks), and is an unfortunate consequence of casting high calibre actors with 'still impressive careers' in supporting roles.
I recommend they not do this going forward, but rather find a reputable older actor who will be happy with a smaller role in the films. There are numerous choices available from GoT alone.
Yes, I agree that that was why the C story was there. I'm not quite sure how to solve that problem: Dame Dench didn't seem to be bothered by a small subplot. And while I like Scott, his acting style was all wrong for a Craig Bond film. In a Brosnan or Moore film, he would have been fine.
I didn't like the C story also because the stakes did not feel high (the BBC/CNN clips notwithstanding). Someone in that storyline--other than C--needed to die.
Maybe someone like Tanner, which goes against the books but whose current portrayal as M's unofficial secretary is really not working for me. His scenes in SP could easily have been handled by Moneypenny or Q.
Or maybe M could have died in some self-sacrificing gesture. Give us a new M every film--shades of The Prisoner!
I think it's time to give Tanner a rest and have him only pop up when a film demands it.
No point to 'The dead are alive' subtitle at all except Mendes thinking hes being clever (its a very subtle reference to Obeerhauser. Do you see? Its bloody brilliant). Why are EON scared to say to him that the GB not being f**ked with is more important than Mendes thinking hes Ingmar Bergmann? We already had to forgo the GB in SF because Mendes' amazing opening shot couldnt be touched. I dont care what your opening shot is twat. Its the 50th anniversary Bond film I want the GB up front and the Bond theme at full blast.
Yep. For once a valid criticism of Tanner's bungled character that cant be levelled at Rory.
Cant argue with that in the slightest.
If they go with this then I can live with the stepbrother bullshit and as has already been stated it would be far better to have Blofeld in the shadows this time round making him the main villain further down the line.
Had Bond been stumbling all over the place as they escaped and Madeline been the one shooting the guards and saving him this would have turned a pedestrian sequence into something suspenseful and important in building their relationship (a la Tracy saving the day at the ice rink). Its already been set up on the train that she knows how to handle a gun and it could climax with her getting into a fight with one of the guards and a groggy Bond dives in to help and it ends with them both saving each other by strangling the guy to death or something.
Instead lets just have the drill enhance Bond's marksmanship with not even one bullet astray as he takes the guards out tediously easily.
Exactly. Could go on all night. These decisions all seem so obvious. Why was no one involved in making the film able to see it?
Craig's biggest fight of his tenure and yet nothing. The SP fight as just a fight is probably slightly better. But the CR stairwell fight as a total sequence and a character study (ending with a battered Bond looking in the mirror) blows it away. And I thought Mendes was the Oscar winning director and Martin Campbell the bloke who made The Green Lantern?
Judi Dench managed just giving Bond his mission in GE and her CV shits on Fiennes. I think its been more EON saying to themselves 'We've got a big name playing M so we need to give them more screen time.'
Judi's screen time increased exponentially with each film and now they've just carried it on with Fiennes. At the current rate M will have more lines than Bond by B30.
Jesus.
I see your point but how is killing off someone no one has even noticed is in the film in the first place raising the stakes?
Difficult to imagine a situation where we need him to pop up but I'm all in favour of getting shot of him ASAP.
This highlights why SP generates such 'passion' for want of a better word.
It is not because it is complete shit people are so annoyed (count myself in that category). Its because it had the potential to be so good and they went and totally pissed it up the wall.
Lets be fair its clearly a far better film than a DAF or a TMWTGG but the reason it seems to get so hammered is the disappointment we all feel of what could have been.
Just implementing a few of the suggestions in this thread would have improved it immeasurably but they made shocking decision after shocking decision and that exasperates us no end.
It is just flabbergasting how it turned out when with just the tiny amount of effort we have gone to in this thread it could have easily been licked into very good shape.
Probably not enough to challenge the big 3 of FRWL, OHMSS and CR but certainly there was enough there if they kept their heads and their sanity (f**king stepbrothergate? How can anyone at EON sign off on that?) for it to be comfortably top 10, maybe top 5.
For me, the major issue with the idea is how much it shrinks Bond's world. Bond is supposed to be an anonymous operative who is sent out to sabotage threats to Britain and the world. Bond is supposed to confront "others," if you will. It's an old-fashioned, colonial sort of idea. But to shrink the entire world down so that it revolves around Bond - Bond influenced Oberhauser's path in life, as he claims - means there are no "others" anymore. If it weren't for Bond, the monsters of Blofeld and Spectre wouldn't exist. A hero creating their villains or being the centre of the universe works for some stories (Batman, Star Wars), but not for others. James Bond is not supposed to be a "special" character who was destined to do what he does. He is supposed to be replaceable, just one of many 00s, who chooses a life of danger in the name of serving his country.
Some of the older films bungle up the idea that Bond is anonymous, too, by making Bond semi-famous within the intelligence or criminal community, but at least that idea only suggests that Bond has built a reputation, which is believable enough.
The dead are alive subtitle doesn't work. The gunbarrel score is boring aswell, newman should've experimented a bit instead of borrowing Arnold and added more oomph to it. The tracking shot isn't as good as made out and it takes me out of it everytime when they enter the hotel. I don't like how Dan plays the kiss with sigman either, doesn't work for me the way he holds his head and looks at her. I'd have bond skip over the window railing ala the bannister in QOS rather than stepping over it like my nan. I realise dans knee might have something to do with that and that he's playing a more seasoned bond, but it still annoys me somewhat that he doesn't seem that mobile in the PTS ( see chase through DOTD festival that had to be altered , yes I know because of dans knee injury).
The blowing up of the building that sciarra is in by filmmakers who pride themselves on being the best is woeful. The overuse of green screen and crap special effects and materials looks exactly like it is, shite. I wouldn't have bond land on a couch either and would've told Dan to f off with that terrible idea. The whole helicopter stunt and fight sequence is a bit of a miss also. For a stunt that was done for real, mendes doesn't half do a great job of making it look fake. Why the overly long focus on the chopper? We should've seen wide shots of that stunt and yet we get amateurish looking and badly staged action not helped by new newman rehashing SF. The sequence is devoid of any sort of tension or excitement, culminating in the awful shots we get when it's quite clear that bond isn't going to crash and will pull up, seriously disappointing. The what seems like 10 minute long shot of the ring is poor aswell.
Christ could be here a while .... I'll post back after I've made the Mrs a brew.
Thats the PTS dealt with! Take your time son.
By the time youre done this will be as long as War & Peace.
missed potential and missed opportunity certainly is a reason for my disappointment. They had the money, they had the cast, they had the time to produce the film properly, they had the legal rights, they had the cinematography, however, they did not have a good script :-)
Of course all the promising incrediants I mentioned above make this film look great and you may think, this film may not please you but it cannot be bad either. There are indeed a few very good scenes in that film). However, I personally think that the script is just bad and that a bad script can never make a good film. You can ruin a good script by bad film making, but you cannot save a film when it is based on a bad script....
1. What's the big deal about Blofeld being Bond's foster brother?
Well...
a) It's not Fleming. A lot in the film series isn't Fleming either except...
b) All this fan talk about how the Craig films "are just like Fleming." (Except, of course, for Mathis being a double agent, but that usually doesn't get referenced). It's a pretty major change for something that is "just like Fleming." Not to mention...
c) It's just like Austin Powers/Dr. Evil. That gets a raise out of some people because...
d) Remember all that talk ("Austin Power f***ed us.") that the series had to be rebooted because of Austin Powers?
2. Re: the gunbarrel..."Why are EON scared to say to him (Mendes) that the GB not being f**ked with is more important than Mendes thinking hes Ingmar Bergmann?"
It could be that Eon's current generation isn't all that fond of the gunbarrel, except as a marketing device. Remember, in 2012, Barbara Broccoli refused to say if the gunbarrel would be at the start of Bond 24. "It will vary from film to film."
http://www.heyuguys.com/the-heyuguys-interview-skyfall-michael-g-wilson-barbara-broccolli/
Perhaps, just perhaps, Barbara Broccoli is in the same camp as posters on this and other 007 bulletin boards who write things such as, "I can't believe you guys care so much about the gunbarrel!"
3. "Judi's screen time increased exponentially with each film and now they've just carried it on with Fiennes. At the current rate M will have more lines than Bond by B30."
Based on the current rate of production, we won't have to worry about that until sometime between 2033 and 2039.