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I'll believe that when I start seeing women go head-to-head with men in championship boxing.
Look, I'm not knocking women (I love them). Their strengths are simply not the same as men's strengths. Women can, on average, do many physical things better than men but men have the upper hand in fighting due to their, on average, greater brute strength.
NO ARGUMENT THERE!
Ah, so you think fighting is about brute strength? Interesting... :-B
And you might be surprised to learn that I am a scientist, specialist in Andrology, I know a thing or two about male physiology. You should stop writing outdated stereotypes as "facts" in every post you make, this is the 21st century after all.
Then I recommend that you watch these MI films again, particularly 1 and 5. Claire Phelps & Ilsa Faust are just as complex as anything we've had in most Bond films.
I can assure you, I've met some women who don't subscribe to this point of view (physically as well as in other ways). Quite frankly, if they can bring home the bacon, I'm open to being a nurturer as well. They can take on the protection job if they want it. It's not all it's cracked up to be, and the pay sucks.
Women better at: washing, ironing, nagging.
Those are just well known facts aren't they?
People tend to overreact sometimes and mix up "good female character" with "make her behave as manly as possible". The whole 'damsel in distress' trope has been so overused that people have now gone the other extreme and EVERYBODY needs to be equally kick-ass. But I think the more sensible among us simply wish for more interesting, layered female CHARACTERS.
Somebody mentioned above that "Bond girls serve 3 general purposes:
1. To get shagged.
2. To look good in a bikini.
3. To die. "
And that's kind of a problem, because at some point you run the risk of the character simply becoming an object and not an actual person, something I think the Bond series has been dealing with fairly well recently. Theres nothing necesserily wrong with the usual "babe in a bikini" role, this is a fantasy setting after all, but we've had that SO many times now that it definitely doesn't hurt to have more ACTUAL females with characters beyond their looks or plot necessity. And Ilsa Faust from MI is a very good example of a female character thats actually INTERESTING and not simply there for window-dressing.
Again, not EVERY character needs to be like Ilsa or Vesper, but at this day and age after a hundred variations of "Honey Ryder", they provide something different and much more ineteresting. A healthy balance of both is the key.
You may have a point there as long as the above 'laws' which you state do in fact apply (I'm not sure if they do). One can't have the cake and eat it too is your point I assume.
Having said that, men in general are stronger than women physically if not necessarily psychically. When these rules / laws are being devised, they are being devised for the general population or majority, and perhaps the weakest, not necessarily the exceptions or the strongest. So in that case, they are fair laws.
As another example, I've always been a little annoyed about the 'women and children first' in cases of life or death situations.....in terms of who should be allowed to leave / escape first. In a pure equality world, chivalry should arguably be thrown out the door. However, in that case, what are we (men) good for then?
I obviously believe that there are indeed key differences between the sexes.
However, I wasn't stating that the ass-kicking woman is as much a stereotype as the bimbo (she's not, but becoming more so). I was stating that they are both just as unrealistic -- not necessarily an ass-kicking woman in general, but one that could take several male henchmen types.
As for the rest of your post, I'm in 100% agreement with all that you said.
Yes, these are my points exactly. Thank you! I think you understand where I'm coming from.
I've met quite a few women who are capable of much more violence as the average bloke who says he is capable and the stronger sex. God....most of us would be praying for a speedy dead if we had to give birth to a child. ;)
Absolutely. So, you're acknowledging another scientifically proven (through many, many separate studies) physical difference between the sexes -- that women, in general, are better able to handle lasting pain than are men.
I just hope you're not acknowledging that edge that women have, while simultaneously denying the fighting edge that men, in general, have over women by using the isolated example of your female MP.
However, if you're using that case of you female MP instructor to illustrate that a man should not assume he can out-fight a woman just because she's a woman, then your point is well taken. You never know. Agreed.
Oh yeah, that's what I meant, I think I misworded my opening statement somewhat. What I meant was that too often "make her a bad-ass" is used a lazy way to add depth. I'm always remined of Jinx, a misguided attempt at "creating an equal to Bond" by simply making her be good at fighting but not actually giving her any personality or letting her be as SMART as Bond and NOT get caught. Her only character trait is "I'm a woman and I know kung-fu". I find it even MORE insulting to have a character like that and then reduce her to a damsel in distress, at least Solitaire and plenty others have the excuse of being weak and untrained, Jinx is just bad at her JOB.
I'm inclined to agree. I'd rather see stronger written female roles than kick ass caricatures.
It's like Kara in TLD who's often passed off as dim as Mary Goodnight but although a little naive she doesn't get kidnapped and have to be rescued by Bond unlike Wai Lin (captured twice on the stealth boat) and Jinx. Plus it's Kara whom urges the Mujahideen to fight the Russians and even leads the attack.
I'd have thought an actress would prefer a meatier role in a Bond film like Kara or Vesper rather than Jinx but then again all my female friends that are into Bond DO like the action girls and particularly liked Wai Lin and Camille so what do I know!
In fact, this whole debate got started (not just w/you but several others) only because I simply meant to suggest that it would more realistic, to make a woman an equal to Bond/Hunt/etc (and I do believe men & women are equal but different), by focusing on strengthens that, in general, women have over men (I used seduction as an example of something women are, in general, better at -- but it needn't only be that).
It's perfectly good, and even necessary, to make such a character a good fighter also, but unrealistic to make her able to take several male henchmen (who would be good fighters too) who are probably twice her weight & strength (not that strength is the only factor in a fight).
In support of your point, I would even say that if she were to outwit the men, using her feminine charms, wisdom, etc, this would be much more realistic (and interesting) than, as you say, lazily adding "depth" by simply making her a bad-ass fighter (who has to rely on that to take down henchman).
I find it much more believable/realistic that a skilled man can take down several other men (in fact, I've seen exactly this, on youtube posted street fights, while I've never seen a woman take several men in real life).
Pussy for example, despite being 'turned', was a strong character.
So was Fiona
So was Anya
So was Goodhead
So was Melina
So was Octopussy
I found the above far more 'modern' than Kara or whiney Bouvier (I think Dalton's tenure had the weakest women roles actually).
Moore got more than his fair share of liberated women towards the end of his run, perhaps to atone for Goodnight.
Of Brosnan's I like Natalya who was pretty cool.
Craig's had a good run too, in CR, QoS & now in SP.