Deadly attacks in Paris / Brussels / Nice (07/14/2016)

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  • Posts: 15,117
    The thing is, when an Islamist terrorist attack happens we often hear from the Muslim community two things with the condemnation of violence: 1)a denial, partial or complete, that the attack was religiously motivated and 2)a shift of blame to the victims. It has been particularly eloquent after the Charlie Hebdo massacre, but was not exclusive to it. "It was wrong but... "
  • Posts: 4,615
    agree, the "but" speaks volumes
  • edited March 2016 Posts: 15,117
    patb wrote: »
    agree, the "but" speaks volumes

    Same thing with 9/11. I heard the "but" left and right. I remember at uni the convoluted things I've heard from an Iranian neighbour (otherwise a decent bloke) to justify the attacks. After the Charlie Hebdo massacre, I think it was even worse: "It was wrong but people must respect our religion and the Prophet", "it was wrong but you can understand why some were upset", "it was wrong but CH was racist", "it was wrong but... was it really terrorism? More like an isolated incident from misguided minds."
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    patb wrote: »
    To be fair to Islam, it's possible to take another step back and not to blame religion and say that religion is a symptom of something else. As a species, we still have not grown up enough to trust science. We surround our selves with crap , mostly because we don't have the guts or vision to deal with reality and also to face up to our our ignorance in certain areas . Browsing the Sunday Times today (a paper targeted at the more upmarket zone), the horoscope was a reminder that we are surrounded by this junk and only a very small number within the global populace have managed to deal with the situation. So if we did find some type of solution to the present issues, it would only be a matter of time before the next conflict comes up.
    Plus religion has succeeded in creating a taboo around itself so even non-believers feel very reserved when it comes to openly criticize religion. It gets a respect that it has not earned and does not deserve. This taboo needs to be attacked and dismantled before religion can be fairly seen and observed for the childish fairy tale that it really is.

    Never heard anyone justify murder or other attrocities because it was in their horoscope, though.
  • Posts: 4,615
    Some delusions are harmless (or appear to be) and some aren't. Rather than pick on the dangerous ones, it would be better if we just dumped religion, tarot, tea leaves, lucky heather, voodoo, star signs, ..yada, yada, yada
  • Posts: 2,483
    About time somebody devotes a thread specifically to Islamic atrocities.
  • Posts: 15,117
    patb wrote: »
    Some delusions are harmless (or appear to be) and some aren't. Rather than pick on the dangerous ones, it would be better if we just dumped religion, tarot, tea leaves, lucky heather, voodoo, star signs, ..yada, yada, yada

    I think all delusions are potentially harmful. Tarot, tea leaves or other kinds of soothsaying,yes can be believed without much harm done, unless say you decide to give a lot of money to a charlatan for guidance, or you act upon false information trying to better your life. The Secret may not have been calling for violence, but it was a very harmful book.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    If we are to dump everything we don t approve of, regardless of it s harm, then we are on the path of those very whacko islamic fundamentalists we wish to fight.
  • Posts: 4,615
    Its not about dumping it because of what I think, its about educating the species and growing up enough as a global community so that we all dump it voluntarily because we know its useless and, in many cases, harmful.
  • Posts: 15,117
    If we are to dump everything we don t approve of, regardless of it s harm, then we are on the path of those very whacko islamic fundamentalists we wish to fight.

    But this is not what I am saying. We have to remain conscious of the harmful nature of unsupported beliefs and when necessary act accordingly. I don't think for instance a family should have the right to refuse its children vaccination. This is harmful for the children, regardless of the family's personal belief and it is harmful for our society as a whole. I don't think we should allow some religious organizations to "reeducate" homosexuals. And if we can and even must allow an Islamist preacher to preach his insanity and his hatred for the West, I do not think we have to give him a stage for it, allow him to preach sedition or say death threats. And on a smaller scale, I don't think creationism should be taught at school in lieu of evolution and I don't think Muslim pupils should fast during school hours during Ramadan.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    No disagreement. Forbid that which causes harm, and otherwise live and let live.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited March 2016 Posts: 9,117
    Just went on the BBC website to catch up on the news headlines.

    1st story - Muslim terrorist bomb in Lahore.
    2nd story - the hunt for the third man in Muslim terror attacks in Brussels.
    3rd story - Gains made by Syrian army against IS.
    4th story - Georgia passes a law allowing the religious to discriminate against homosexuals.


    Spot the common thread? But we are ordered by the government to 'respect people's beliefs' and told that religion is a force for good!?!? Fuck off. I'm sick of the rest of us having to put up with this shit.

    When was the last time atheism monopolised the news like this with stories that are only about death, fear, war and intolerance? Or conversely - when was the last time there was a positive story about religion?

    It's about time religion was treated as what it is - a mental illness.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    @TheWizardOfIce

    I think fighting religion in a direct conflict is impossible.
    My answer is education. Countries that allow free-spirited education and force it upon boys and girls alike, also tend to become more secular over time.
    If only they realised this is Arkansas and the likes...
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    I've received notifications saying the white house is on lockdown after reports of shots fired.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @TheWizardOfIce

    I think fighting religion in a direct conflict is impossible.
    My answer is education. Countries that allow free-spirited education and force it upon boys and girls alike, also tend to become more secular over time.
    If only they realised this is Arkansas and the likes...

    Education the answer? Difficult when the likes of David Cameron and the rest of the Islingtonistas are forever extolling the virtues of 'faith' schools.

    Teaching kids to have 'faith'. That's brilliant. So why would they listen when you say 'You need to study hard to pass your exams' when in the previous class they have had it drummed into them to believe in God's grand plan for the universe and nothing they do can change that.

    One for all the kids at faith schools here: next time your teacher gives you earache for dicking around in class just say 'It's ok I don't need to study because I have faith I will pass. Blindly believing in something without actual evidence to support it what this school is all about isn't it?'

  • Posts: 15,117
    Education is great and to make sure people get a good education they have to keep religions out of school.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    I'd say we need to educate people about religion, not necessarily from religion. And to not mention religion, sadly, invites curiosity and might lead people to less trustworthy educators.
  • edited March 2016 Posts: 15,117
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I'd say we need to educate people about religion, not necessarily from religion. And to not mention religion, sadly, invites curiosity and might lead people to less trustworthy educators.

    Oh to avoid any ambiguity I agree. What I meant is to keep religious authorities out of school and religious dogmas as well. Pupils need to know about different faiths, but they need to know these are faiths. NOT have religions take over science classes, sex ed classes and school assemblies. Which I have seen when I was a teaching assistant.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I'd say we need to educate people about religion, not necessarily from religion. And to not mention religion, sadly, invites curiosity and might lead people to less trustworthy educators.

    Oh to avoid any ambiguity I agree. What I meant is to keep religious authorities out of school and religious dogmas as well. Pupils need to know about different faiths, but they need to know these are faiths. NOT have religions take over science classes, sex ed classes and school assemblies. Which I have seen when I was a teaching assistant.

    I'd take issue with the notion that pupils 'need to know' about different religions. Perhaps as a background to modern conflicts and terrorism but would it be a bad thing if a child actually grew up ignorant of religion?

    It should be an offence to expose a child to religion before they reach the age of 18. At that point they are free to make up their own mind about the world but I wonder how many you'd find, who without being brainwashed by their parents as children, would turn to religion of their own volition?

    I'd sooner any child of mine took up smoking rather than religion.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I'd take issue with the notion that pupils 'need to know' about different religions. Perhaps as a background to modern conflicts and terrorism but would it be a bad thing if a child actually grew up ignorant of religion?

    It should be an offence to expose a child to religion before they reach the age of 18. At that point they are free to make up their own mind about the world but I wonder how many you'd find, who without being brainwashed by their parents as children, would turn to religion of their own volition?
    I like your first idea. Namely, introduce religion early, but as a background to conflict and terrorism. Or even frame it in the context of showcasing humankind's desire and predilection to delude itself, along with other examples which they can verify. What and how a child is taught at an early stage can stay with them (even subconsciously) for a lifetime, so an early start on this is not a bad thing, as long as the context is rational and supported by real world examples rather than fairy tales.

    Regarding not teaching before the age of 18, the problem I have with this is the most susceptible are going to hear about it anyway (most likely from home) so I think it's best to head it off at the pass early and put it in the proper context. It's best to frame the narrative and give examples of the positives and negatives as soon as possible, just like sex education, before unsafe practices form.

    Regarding those not being brainwashed early turning to religion, I'm not sure what the stats are on this. I can imagine that parental (family elders & other loved ones etc.) teaching and brainwashing definitely impacts a child's perception and world view, so probably it could reduce the numbers dramatically. However, there are still those who turn to religion late in life. It's been my experience that this is more on account of some trauma or personal loss, which leads to 'finding god' as solace. I have encountered many like this, and they are the most zealous & difficult to dissuade. In fact, the same apparently applies to many of the Daesh/ISIL followers - namely late & 'free will' converts to the 'cause'.
  • Posts: 15,117
    @TheWizardofIce I think Richard Dawkins pleaded it very well: you cannot understand history or even literature without a knowledge of religions. It's part of the historical and cultural context of every civilization. When Voltaire speaks against a bishop in his writings you need to know what a bishop is. But if children need to understand belief systems, they should not be indoctrinated said belief system. So let's kick the Church of England vicars out of public schools. And the assembly prayers.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'd take issue with the notion that pupils 'need to know' about different religions. Perhaps as a background to modern conflicts and terrorism but would it be a bad thing if a child actually grew up ignorant of religion?

    It should be an offence to expose a child to religion before they reach the age of 18. At that point they are free to make up their own mind about the world but I wonder how many you'd find, who without being brainwashed by their parents as children, would turn to religion of their own volition?
    I like your first idea. Namely, introduce religion early, but as a background to conflict and terrorism. Or even frame it in the context of showcasing humankind's desire and predilection to delude itself, along with other examples which they can verify. What and how a child is taught at an early stage can stay with them (even subconsciously) for a lifetime, so an early start on this is not a bad thing, as long as the context is rational and supported by real world examples rather than fairy tales.

    Regarding not teaching before the age of 18, the problem I have with this is the most susceptible are going to hear about it anyway (most likely from home) so I think it's best to head it off at the pass early and put it in the proper context. It's best to frame the narrative and give examples of the positives and negatives as soon as possible, just like sex education, before unsafe practices form.

    Regarding those not being brainwashed early turning to religion, I'm not sure what the stats are on this. I can imagine that parental (family elders & other loved ones etc.) teaching and brainwashing definitely impacts a child's perception and world view, so probably it could reduce the numbers dramatically. However, there are still those who turn to religion late in life. It's been my experience that this is more on account of some trauma or personal loss, which leads to 'finding god' as solace. I have encountered many like this, and they are the most zealous & difficult to dissuade. In fact, the same apparently applies to many of the Daesh/ISIL followers - namely late & 'free will' converts to the 'cause'.

    Well in a Wizard dictatorship kids getting exposed to it at home wouldn't happen because they would be taken into care and the parents prosecuted for child abuse.

    In terms of teaching it should be taught as something dangerous that they should steer clear of. Strange how keen schools are to teach kids the horrors perpetuated by the Nazis but not religion which surely has a higher body count through history.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @TheWizardofIce I think Richard Dawkins pleaded it very well: you cannot understand history or even literature without a knowledge of religions. It's part of the historical and cultural context of every civilization. When Voltaire speaks against a bishop in his writings you need to know what a bishop is. But if children need to understand belief systems, they should not be indoctrinated said belief system. So let's kick the Church of England vicars out of public schools. And the assembly prayers.

    Well that's fine if you are studying history. Also you need it if you're studying world politics as there are still too many countries who let it have some say but those are the only contexts in which it should be studied - historical background and as an anachronism of how less educated people used to think in the olden days.

    These days religion has all the relevance of the coccyx; a reminder of our primitive origins but serving no useful function.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    If Nazism had been a religion, it would still get a free pass.
  • Posts: 15,117
    If Nazism had been a religion, it would still get a free pass.

    Pope Benedict XVI got a free pass for being in the Hitlerian Youth.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    If Nazism had been a religion, it would still get a free pass.

    Pope Benedict XVI got a free pass for being in the Hitlerian Youth.

    An ex-Nazi in charge of an organisation that hordes billions in its vaults and is a haven for paedos. Sounds like the plot of a Frederick Forsythe novel but apparently it's something we should all respect.
  • Posts: 15,117
    And he had that stupid flirt with intelligent design. Even compared to his Church he was backward.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,255
    Ludovico wrote: »
    If Nazism had been a religion, it would still get a free pass.

    Pope Benedict XVI got a free pass for being in the Hitlerian Youth.

    An ex-Nazi in charge of an organisation that hordes billions in its vaults and is a haven for paedos. Sounds like the plot of a Frederick Forsythe novel but apparently it's something we should all respect.

    The truth is always stranger then fiction. But looking at the way the Catholic churh behaved during those years you shouldn't be surprised...
  • Posts: 15,117
    And his successor practiced exorcisms. But hey, he's modern and everything.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The Catholic Church supported Hitler. After all, he was one of their own. The muslims supported him, too.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,716
    New attack tonight in Nice. Reports of 60+ dead, 100 injured.
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