Deadly attacks in Paris / Brussels / Nice (07/14/2016)

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  • Posts: 11,119
    who simply are not able to work themselves up into the middle class,

    I think you should limit your incompetence to box office predictions.

    The cliche "they have nothing to lose" is dead wrong, and we learn that attack after attack, when information is given about the authors.

    Stop thinking in terms of Hollywood movies from the 80s where the terrorists are poor guys who are black market dealers etc. Nowadays local terrorism is also "funded" by people asking for a loan of 8.000E from their banks, and who receive them because they have a proper job. And well, look at the profiles of the 9/11 terrorists...

    You are obviously analphabetic. There is a difference between terrorists of 2001 and today's terrorists. You blatantly refuse to understand the reasoning behind today's terrorists, by making utterly false assumptions that I am dumb. You should be ashamed of how you react to all this.

    I prefer to be measured:
    Hillary Clinton was, of course, very measured in her response. She too appeared on O'Reilly (her first time on the show in nearly 10 years), as well as on Anderson Cooper's program. She stressed the need for better intelligence gathering, expressed concern at the risk of getting sucked into a ground war in Syria, and flatly refused to use the term "radical Islam," preferring instead to declare, "We're at war against radical jihadists who use Islam to recruit and radicalize others in order to pursue their evil agenda."
  • Posts: 15,117
    patb wrote: »
    Some very good and fair points but , it is the majority of "peace loving practicing" religious people that give power to those who seek it within organised religion. Many religious people don't seem to be happy if they are on their own. They seek strength by being in a large group (or flock as christian's say). And these large groups enable leaders to have power over the group. A type of power that is unique to religion and beyond the political power of other leaders. If religion was purely about individuals finding their own spiritual truth and keeping that to themselves, I am in no doubt I would not be typing these words and 84 people would still be alive this morning.

    Problem with the moderate religious people is that there's no way to assess their view of their sacred text as the correct one. In fact often if you read said sacred text you need to twist it and ignore a lot of unsavoury aspects of it to have a moderate view of the doctrine it preaches.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 11,119
    Yes, everything has to be a leftist or rightist issue. Not just a human issue, like it is. Of course it's the political party that's evil, not the people practicing it, just like guns fire without human interaction with them...oh, wait. The idiocy runs rampant, full scale. If we can't stop pointing fingers at others, some blamers had better get ready to waste more empty words on mourning countless more innocent deaths going forward as they struggle to make people believe how one, just one political ideology is responsible for it all. Enough with the fairy tales.

    Do I agree with religion? No, I do not. I think it is largely toxic, divisive, manipulative and above all, the greatest tool for fear ever created by man. Tell a bunch of people they'll go to an eternally burning pit if they misbehave, and watch them dance; I truly get the appeal of it as a social tool for order by madmen bent on controlling a populace, but it's grown into its own cancer over time, and quickly. How many people have we lost to fundamentalist, blinding religion in wars, in attacks, in acts of violence, hate and resentment?

    With this all said, I do not think religion should be exercised into obscurity or shut down, and certainly not made to be illegal, as that is beyond ludicrous. It should never be that a minority of jackasses like those who orchestrate these attacks should ruin it for the good majority for have a faith that is unattached to this unique brand of hatred and terror. For as bad as the things it may cause are, there are still a majority who practice religion the way it should be done. There are many good people out there who just so happen to be religious, like most of my family, and those people feel a need to believe in a higher power to get them through the day. I think that alone points to how disorderly the world is and how they should be questioning their faith, but there you have it.

    I completely get why people need to tell themselves that a man in the sky is looking out for them and doing his best to give them a greater purpose, preparing them for final judgement, and on and on and on. While I cannot believe this, simply because it fails every trial of logic I place in front of it, I would never ask a government to stop people from practicing something like religion as long as it was done correctly. What needs to change in religion are the tenets of the main religions, especially Catholicism, who is the face of it and how we can alter how organized religion is practiced overall. To take a western example, the Vatican shouldn't be the final say on who is a sinner, nor should they be their own private bank at this point who can pay off people to go hush hush on all the very non-Christian things that go on inside its walls so as not to hurt membership worse than it already is. The Vatican in the past was run by men who knew the bible was full of it, and they used their position to exercise their power in ways that made them gods among men and more rich in wealth, influence and control than any man in Rome, men who they brainwashed into believing everything they said.

    Nowadays we've got that on a global scale, with popes raging wars against gays and other aspects of our humanity that are natural and born to us, and therefore not wrong. The Vatican thinks what God has given us is beautiful and pure and natural, except if you are homosexual or transgender, in which case it's not God who did that to you, and only your choice alone that needs to be "fixed" before judgement day. In addition, they are still pushing antiquated ideas that priests must remain celibate and not marry, then they act surprised and try to hide it when those very priests develop unhealthy ideas of sexuality and try to get it anywhere they can (like from altar boys) because the church has told them they can't partake in the act of sex, the most natural thing in our biological make-up.

    Point being, don't focus on the majority of peaceful practicing religious people. Focus on the major organized centers of it that are brainwashing and leading divisive operations against those seen as different by their marching orders, express from "God." That's where the real change can begin.

    Thank. YOU. @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 . Finally someone who agrees with me. I think you hit the nail on the head. I have been really frustrated at how the discussion tends to become a blamefinger-discussion in which we accuse the left or the right. I admire your nuance, your sanity and your....well.....measured post. More people should do that. I fully agree with your post.

    And to all people who respond to @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7. Give an equally measured and nuanced response please. He is not typing such a long post for the sake of becoming typecasted as 'leftist' or 'weirdo'. He just wanted to make clear that there's a difference between people who practice religion in a peaceful way and people who abuse it and recreate it into a violent radical ideology. You have peaceful Muslims, Jews, Mormons and Christians. But you also have murderers, pedophiles, suicide criminals, psychopaths and...terrorists who act in name of a religion and twist and turn that religion into violent sectarian propaganda.

    If we CAN NOT make that distinction, then we won't find a solution. And for those who think I should limit my posts to 'incompetent box office predictions'..........well, to those I say: Let a moderator come in between for such remarks as well. It's the content of name-calling and bullying that destroys a good discussion as well.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 4,615
    Yes, more proof.
    We have some politicians who cant even say certain words, such is the hypersensitivity created by well meaning liberals who seek to protect Islam from any critique and the cowardess of mainstream politics not to deal with these issues.
    Do these terrorists seek to promote Islam? Yes
    Are they radical? You bet
    But our leaders cant even say the words. How the hell can we have a genuine dialogue under such a ridiculous culture?
  • Posts: 15,117
    Sorry but there's no excuse for this atrocity. And let's call a spade a spade here: it was an act of religious devotion and the religion is Islam. Which can be criticized, mocked and ridiculed as an idea.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2016 Posts: 15,716
    France should leave the EU/Schengen immediately, pull out the military from most foreign bases, close its borders and double/triple the budget of the intelligence service that can be used to monitor radicalized subjects a lot closer (wouldn't have stopped yesterday's attacks, but the other 2 Paris attacks and Brussels' attacks were made by people who were known by the secret services). Also, build "holding areas" to monitor any immigrants arriving from Africa/Middle East until they have been thoroughly checked out.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Sorry but there's no excuse for this atrocity. And let's call a spade a spade here: it was an act of religious devotion and the religion is Islam. Which can be criticized, mocked and ridiculed as an idea.

    Obviously there's no excuse for this atrocity. But...are you serious that you are implying that some in here want to falsely justify such an act? If so, then please understand that's not the case.


  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2016 Posts: 15,716
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Sorry but there's no excuse for this atrocity. And let's call a spade a spade here: it was an act of religious devotion and the religion is Islam. Which can be criticized, mocked and ridiculed as an idea.

    Obviously there's no excuse for this atrocity. But...are you serious that you are implying that some in here want to falsely justify such an act? If so, then please understand that's not the case.


    You are saying we should accept that such attacks will happen from now on and that they can't be stopped. That is factually justifying such attacks.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited July 2016 Posts: 9,117

    Thank. YOU. @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 . Finally someone who agrees with me. I think you hit the nail on the head. I have been really frustrated at how the discussion tends to become a blamefinger-discussion in which we accuse the left or the right. I admire your nuance, your sanity and your....well.....measured post. More people should do that. I fully agree with your post.

    I'll agree that's quite a good post by @Brady, even though there are parts of it I don't agree with, but it's a bit rich of you to piggy back on it given your previous comments thus:
    So then you get this mess. As long as wealth and prosperity isn't equally distributed across the planet
    And there's nothing you can do about it. Well, there's something you can do. Make sure that wealth is distributed more equally

    This is neither nuanced nor well measured. It's just 6th form Socialist Worker rhetoric which has been shown thoughout history to be a load of old bollocks. Did you miss the Berlin Wall coming down? It's a nice idea but it doesn't work in reality.

    PS - Repetitivley writing the word 'nuance' every third sentence doesn't make your arguments any more valid.
    stag wrote: »
    I just heard on the news from a source within the French authorities that "France should get used to terrorist attack." There's your answer as to what is being done!

    Indeed. 'Just put up with it as we haven't got a clue' seems to be the only answer the politicians have. Desperate times.

    Hillary Clinton was, of course, very measured in her response. She too appeared on O'Reilly (her first time on the show in nearly 10 years), as well as on Anderson Cooper's program. She stressed the need for better intelligence gathering, expressed concern at the risk of getting sucked into a ground war in Syria, and flatly refused to use the term "radical Islam," preferring instead to declare, "We're at war against radical jihadists who use Islam to recruit and radicalize others in order to pursue their evil agenda.

    The prospective leader of the free world still more concerned with not offending Islam than doing anything about it. Pathetic.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Sorry but there's no excuse for this atrocity. And let's call a spade a spade here: it was an act of religious devotion and the religion is Islam. Which can be criticized, mocked and ridiculed as an idea.

    Obviously there's no excuse for this atrocity. But...are you serious that you are implying that some in here want to falsely justify such an act? If so, then please understand that's not the case.


    You are saying we should accept that such attacks will happen from now on and that they can't be stopped. That is factually justifying such attacks.

    I have NEVER said that we should accept such attacks. I said that they can't be stopped......as long as we don't understand the complexities of this and instead start raging a counter-war on Islam!
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2016 Posts: 15,716
    You factually justify these attacks by being the biggest Pro-EU guy on these forums. You are the huge-ass problem here. The EU and all your bullshiting politicians that are from your side are the root of the problem. If France could control its borders, we could feel safer even if there will always be the possibility of attacks. The point here is to diminish the chances of attacks, and your stupid EU is actually helping the terrorists.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Sorry but there's no excuse for this atrocity. And let's call a spade a spade here: it was an act of religious devotion and the religion is Islam. Which can be criticized, mocked and ridiculed as an idea.

    Obviously there's no excuse for this atrocity. But...are you serious that you are implying that some in here want to falsely justify such an act? If so, then please understand that's not the case.


    You are saying we should accept that such attacks will happen from now on and that they can't be stopped. That is factually justifying such attacks.

    I have NEVER said that we should accept such attacks. I said that they can't be stopped......as long as we don't understand the complexities of this and instead start raging a counter-war on Islam!

    By 'complexities' you just mean to absolve Muslims of any responsibility for their own actions.
  • Posts: 15,117
    The problem is Gustav: Islam is part of the problem. Whatever the complexities at the core of it, fuelling the madness is a religious ideology. Islam has to reform and adapt to the secular West, NOT the other way round.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    There are a few discussions going on here, and they are being conflated.

    The first one is about religion. Yes, it is a delusion (there is no hard evidence for god as we know, just anecdotal). I don't know who drove the lorry, but ultimately most of the attacks in France and elsewhere have been by people who are religiously minded, and perpetrated 'in the name' of Islam, in this case.

    The second one is simply about 'war'. There is indeed a war going on, and it's been going on for quite some time. It got more intensive in 2003, and then has escalated since then. That is primarily against countries with large Islamic populations. Islam is a very unified religion, and in some ways is more than that - it's actually more of a culture. So those who see themselves as culturally and religiously similar to the people being killed in the Middle East will be affected emotionally. Retaliation is inevitable. Add the fact that there are a vast number of young disaffected males in society, and you have an explosive mix. They feel a need to kill infidels and avenge their fallen brothers, no doubt.

    The third one is about Islam not being able to adapt to the West. Here, I disagree. That is too broad a judgement. I know many practicing Muslims who fit well into Western society and yet are deeply religious. Turkey, for example, is modern and relatively open as a society (despite Erdogan's attempts) and is Muslim. Malaysia is not radical and is a Muslim country. There are more Muslims in India than in Pakistan.

    No, as we have discussed whenever these incidents occur, there is a brand of Islamic ideology, namely the Wahhabist one that originates from Western 'friend' Saudi Arabia. This is the theology that is responsible for radicalising the youth and for inspiring ISIL/Daesh.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

    The West will not address this head on because of it's need to sell weapons to the Kingdoms and buy their oil. The citizens are being duped.

    The Saudis have actually been funding Wahhabist madrassas globally, and folks have been turning a blind eye to it. Instead, they are going miles away and dropping bombs, when the problems are actually at home.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-yousaf-butt-/saudi-wahhabism-islam-terrorism_b_6501916.html
  • Posts: 15,117
    @bondjames I'm not saying Islam cannot adapt to the West. I'm saying it has to, just like other faiths had to adapt to our now mostly secular societies. Even though they did so sometimes unwillingly and whining about their loss of privileges and influence along the way.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    @Ludovico, I know that Islam has more of a difficult time adapting than some other religions (but not all). I am not well enough versed or knowledgeable about the teachings, but it is quite a stringent religion from what I know, and those who follow the 'letter' will probably have problems assimilating.

    I also believe that Sharia should not be allowed in Western societies. Period. It will open up a can of worms. If that's unacceptable to those who are religiously inclined, then they should perhaps move somewhere else.

    However, I am most upset by the apparent lack of efforts to stop the Wahhabist ideology from spreading in Saudi funded institutions. I am not sure if the spy agencies have infiltrated such religious places, but if not, they should immediately. This is where the hate is coming from. Bottom line, they aren't doing enough on this front.
  • Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    There are a few discussions going on here, and they are being conflated.

    The first one is about religion. Yes, it is a delusion (there is no hard evidence for god as we know, just anecdotal). I don't know who drove the lorry, but ultimately most of the attacks in France and elsewhere have been by people who are religiously minded, and perpetrated 'in the name' of Islam, in this case.
    The third one is about Islam not being able to adapt to the West. Here, I disagree. That is too broad a judgement. I know many practicing Muslims who fit well into Western society and yet are deeply religious. Turkey, for example, is modern and relatively open as a society (despite Erdogan's attempts) and is Muslim. Malaysia is not radical and is a Muslim country. There are more Muslims in India than in Pakistan.

    This is the profile of the perpetrator:
    The perpetrator of the terrorist attack was a 31-year old Frenchman of Tunesian descent. In the cabin of his truck there was his official Identity Card. The man was a well-known suspect with the police for physical violence against humans, illegal possession of weapons, but he wasn't marked by French intelligence.

    The Tunesian Intelligence Service said that the man, Mohamed Lahouaiej, was in Tunesia for the last time four years ago. He was married, had three kids and wasn't actively attending prayers in Mosques. With Tunesian authorities he wasn't marked as 'radical'.

    Press Agency AFP mentioned that the man rented the truck this week in the region Provencee-Côte d'Azur.

    So, again, this is a man who isn't an active ISIS terrorist or went to Syria. He is 'inspired' by it, yes. But he isn't by far a person that one can earmark in an early stage as a 'potential radical terrorist'. He is Muslim yes, but by far a devoted one.

    And a prime reason he 'exploded' into this terrorist attack, had to do with the fact that he was already a small criminal in his own neighborhood.


    Secondly, I fully agree with you @BondJames on what you say about the Islam. I also believe there's room for a more enlightened, 'westernized' Islam. And in The Netherlands that is already happening. I had the privilege to actually organize a combined service between Muslims and Christians in Enschede. And through intense negotiations, we more or less pressed the Muslims in Enschede to be a bit more 'different' with the building plans for a new mosque.

    And look what it got them?
    image-5855121.jpg

    Right now it's already an attraction with non-Muslim citizens in Enschede. They fell in love with this mosque.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Schengen and the EU is our undoing. People who still support open borders don't see the reality.
  • Basta!

    As the creator of this thread almost 12 months ago, I ask you to calm down and stop cursing like a mad man, otherwise please leave this thread until you calm down so we can have a peaceful conversation here instead of having ridiculous posts like yours that will cause a heated discussion. I am tired of having posts like that causing mayhem in serious threads where we should be calm and be in solidarity against extremism and terrorism.

    So let me see if I've got this straight: @gustav can't say "Basta" (according to my dictionary, a term of vulgar origins basically meaning, "enough already") without receiving a rebuke, while others can say "Fuck" all they want as long as they're saying "fuck religion"? Glad I've been giving this thread a miss for the most part...
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2016 Posts: 15,716
    I didn't say he can't say 'Basta', I just quoted the last to make the quote shorter. Don't care for that word, it was the rest of his OTT post that was a problem.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Schengen and the EU is our undoing. People who still support open borders don't see the reality.

    473317005.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=62CA815BFB1CE480FF166B66130FE517D1DB44E5599D888A5A9CF6EFE4D8520B2D82010F7ED17180

    Do you see borders? Do you.....really believe every country on this globe can be surrounded by one continuous border of fences that, when trespassed, cause death? Do you really believe that one customs port, or 10, or 50...can dramatically reduce the massive immigrant crisis we are facing? Right now as we speak, Hungary's fence doesn't seem to work...

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    During War, even moving around your own country means producing i.d., I
    would say we are at war. Having to show passports at borders, shouldn't
    be a huge infringement, It wouldn't bother me.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    Schengen and the EU is our undoing. People who still support open borders don't see the reality.

    Correct. Let's put this failed project to bed, close our borders to the terrorists, and venerate the nation state. There is nothing wrong with national identity and national pride.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 4,619
    I think, in all honesty, there's nothing you can do about it.

    Nonsense. There are plenty of things European leaders could do about it. A great first step would be for them to do everything they can to stop people who follow the set of beliefs called islam from coming to Europe.
  • Posts: 11,119
    I think, in all honesty, there's nothing you can do about it.

    Nonsense. There are plenty of things European leaders could do about it. A great first step would be for them to do everything they can to stop people who follow the set of beliefs called islam from coming to Europe.

    How exactly?
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    I think, in all honesty, there's nothing you can do about it.

    Nonsense. There are plenty of things European leaders could do about it. A great first step would be for them to do everything they can to stop people who follow the set of beliefs called islam from coming to Europe.

    More truth. Funny how leaders condemn Christians for disagreeing with gay marriage, but are quick to downplay Muslim terrorist acts. Apparently we're just supposed to accept that this will be a regular occurrence from now on. Utterly spineless.
  • Posts: 15,117
    I condemn Christians for their backward views on same sex marriage and sometimes their lobbying against it, or their attempts to block it. Churches should have no power over the state, period. Whatever the particular faith. But that means being hard on Islam as well.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    But that means being hard on Islam as well.

    It would be tough but I believe I could live with that.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 4,619
    How exactly?

    1. Working together with North-African and Middle-Eastern leaders.
    2. Petrolling the Mediterranean Sea and immediately shipping rescued people back to North-Africa instead of shipping them to Italy.
    3. Border barriers + soldiers at the borders between Turkey and the EU (Greece & Bulgaria). Despite the nonsense that you wrote earlier, border barriers DO work, and the Hungarian fence DOES work. source: https://i.redditmedia.com/aM8j0TbzLOo4-e8MIedh-6NpRKNbFZXKODFMk0w2Bk8.jpg?w=1024&s=1062de080ce9b7607b63cb33e2fed271
    4. Making life in Europe for migrants as unappealing as possible, without being inhumane. (For example: as little benefits as possible.)
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited July 2016 Posts: 8,395
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I condemn Christians for their backward views on same sex marriage and sometimes their lobbying against it, or their attempts to block it. Churches should have no power over the state, period. Whatever the particular faith. But that means being hard on Islam as well.

    I completely agree. What I was saying is that if the leaders can condemn Christians they should be able to condemn Muslims as well. We are either enlightened or we aren't.
This discussion has been closed.