Serious escalation in Syrian conflict: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter jet

13»

Comments

  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Are you the Turkish Alastair Campbell?

    So the plane was most definitely in Turkish airspace when it was shot at but conveniently it landed in Syria so all the crazies who murdered the pilots are nothing to with Turkey!

    It's extremely poor judgement by the Turks. As @patb says above just patrol the border and escort them away. Shooting down a Russian plane? What's the best result the Turks were hoping for in that situation?
    Surely you're aware that in border areas both my statements can be true? Maybe it wasn't good judgment on the part of Turkey, but certainly they have a legal right to shoot down hostile planes over their territory.
  • The Iraqi PM has a very good and valid point when he says that Turkish planes violate the Syrian and Iraqi airspace every day. The only country that is legally involved in Syria is Russia, according to international law. They were invited there by the legitimate government. Russia wasn t going to bomb Turkey, were they? Only their darlings IS.

    You must be joking. Everyone who uses, or abuses, decent international law to justify their own political agenda's, is a villain!

    Because you forget one very pivotal element here: Legitimate governments can fuel athrocities and can even commit genocide. And that is exactly what president Assad did when the Arab Spring kicked in.

    You know, a president or king can always slowly adopt elements of the Arab Spring. It's what the more enlightened kings of Jordan and Morocco did. You should check a bit and see how the democratic nature of Jordan and Morocco has improved considerably in the past three years.

    Assad however?
    tumblr_mrzhv6KVR71rwqfvwo1_500.jpg

    So before you startusing your flawed argument of international law, I kindly ask you to include 'international criminal law' as well. Back in the old days --post-WW II - pre-9/11-- we put those people on trial. Neuremberg, the Yugoslave Tribunal, The Hague Criminal Court of Justice.

    But ever since the powers on this planet shifted to less democratic nations, we suddenly feel 'empathy' for Assad...and Putin? It's ridiculous.

    Furthermore, in wars every participating country commits crimes. But we do forget sometimes the actual reason why we are fighting a war. Both Nazi-Germany and the Allied Forces wanted to win the WW II. But as you know, both powers had entirely different reasons and motivations for it.

    The 'Classic West' wanted to have real civilized peace for all nations, in which there was space for every human being. Every human being. Hitler however, wanted peace for only a few people, defined into German Nazi-genetics-laws.

    Today, the 'Classic West' hopefully still wants a prosperous and durable peace for everyone, no matter what your skin color, sexual preference or height is. But around 'us' there are factions/groups/nations who have other definitions for peace. ISIS wants to enslave women. Russia intensifies anti-gay laws. Israel warns the Jews that they are only safe in Israel. Saudi-Arabia is using punishments that are truly medieval (death by stones).

    So ask yourself that for once. What the real intentions are. Obviously you will mention the word "power", "oil" and "money". And that's absolutely true. But what if that "power", "oil" and "money" actually helps gay rights? Instead of destroying them? What if it helps equality between women and men, instead of enslaving women?


    Ask. Yourself. These. Questions. Please.

    Having said all this, and I'm drifting away from the core of your message, both Turkey and Russia were wrong. Very wrong. These countries, with their presidents Erdogan and Putin, stand for ultra-nationalism, not 'freedom for all'. These countries are imprisoning those who criticise their governments, instead of listening to them. So whatever they do in the war against ISIS, it's wrong. Turkey (ab)uses the fight against ISIS to also silence the Curd-minorities, to actually kill them. Russia enters the fight against ISIS, because they want to have a nice neighbouring buddy: Assad. They all want power, like the USA and many other 'Classic West' countries, but for the wrong reasons.

    Europe and especially the USA want more influence in the region, because they want to maintain our achievements of real freedom, real democracy, and real equality. That's the difference between the 'Classic West' on one side...and countries like Turkey and Russia on the other side.

  • Posts: 11,425
    Turkey, like Saudi, is another of our dodgy 'allies'. And like the Saudis they have been more than happy to turn a blind eye to much of what ISIL does.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Putin has really focused the minds in that region and in the West since he started sending Russian bombers in. I credit him with that. He is after ISIL. He is the only one of the lot who I am absolutely sure is after ISIL.

    From my perspective, Assad is the lesser of two evils there by a long shot. We know that these autocracies are more stable over there than 'democracies', so for now, I'm with Putin on this. Take out ISIL/Al Nusra/Al Quada first please. Then worry about Assad and 'Free Syrian' Army (I still don't know who these guys are supposed to be except terrorists themselves trying to take control forcibly......they are certainly not Tahrir square democracy protesters........and where are they getting their arms from to fight Assad?).
  • bondjames wrote: »
    Putin has really focused the minds in that region since he started sending Russian bombers in. I credit him with that. He is after ISIL. He is the only one of the lot who I am absolutely sure is after ISIL. From my perspective, Assad is the lesser of two evils there by a long shot. We know that these autocracies are more stable over there than 'democracies', so for now, I'm with Putin on this. Take out ISIL/Al Nusra/Al Quada first please. Then worry about Assad and 'Free Syrian' (I still don't know who these guys are supposed to be except terrorists themselves).

    You have to be joking. Russia is only in this mess, because they want Assad to stay in power. Putin didn't give a damn about the above picture I posted.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    You have to be joking. Russia is only in this mess, because they want Assad to stay in power. Putin didn't give a damn about the above picture I posted.
    Putin is after ISIL. That's all I know, and that's why he gets my support. Wholeheartedly.
  • bondjames wrote: »
    You have to be joking. Russia is only in this mess, because they want Assad to stay in power. Putin didn't give a damn about the above picture I posted.
    Putin is after ISIL. That's all I know, and that's why he gets my support. Wholeheartedly.

    And once the USA is after ISIS, it gets slammed for it. Double standards. We seriously need to tone down our hate of the USA.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Well, the truth is that if you want to combat ISIL then you need some form of stable/strong government in Syria. At the moment the ONLY option is Assad.

    The idea that you can get rid of Assad and implement democratic reform at the same time as combating ISIL is total insanity.

    Getting rid of Assad will only create the context in which ISIL will thrive.

    Western foreign policy is in a complete and utter shambles on this.

    I can actually fully understand why Corbyn is still against UK air strikes in Syria. He knows that the RAF could end up being used against the Syrian government and that that will end in disaster.

    The Americans are even now still arming anti-government rebels with anti tank weaponry. It's insanity. What exactly are they trying to achieve? They say they want to defeat ISIL but at the same time they are attacking one of the few military forces - the Syrian Army and it's proxies - that is able to defeat ISIL.

    And at the same time they won't arm the Kurds for fear of annoying Turkey.

    Stupidity on a truly grand scale.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    You have to be joking. Russia is only in this mess, because they want Assad to stay in power. Putin didn't give a damn about the above picture I posted.
    Putin is after ISIL. That's all I know, and that's why he gets my support. Wholeheartedly.

    And once the USA is after ISIS, it gets slammed for it. Double standards. We seriously need to tone down our hate of the USA.
    If you want to believe that the US was only after ISIL, that's ok. The US was arming Syrian rebels, and doesn't have the ground intelligence to know ISIL from the Syrian rebels. They are fightng each other, and ISIL was winning and taking the arms (along with other arms supplied by Saudi & Qatar). Free Syrian Army have Al Nusra members too.

    Putin doesn't give a damn about a 'free Syrian Army' revolution. He has Assad's, Iraq's and Iran's backing, and his job is to exterminate ISIL and anyone else fighting the government of Syria at this moment. That is a simpler mission, and easier to achieve. I'm 100% with him on it.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    I don't think anyone's deluded enjough to think Putin cares about the human rights of Syrians.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    You have to be joking. Russia is only in this mess, because they want Assad to stay in power. Putin didn't give a damn about the above picture I posted.
    Putin is after ISIL. That's all I know, and that's why he gets my support. Wholeheartedly.

    And once the USA is after ISIS, it gets slammed for it. Double standards. We seriously need to tone down our hate of the USA.
    If you want to believe that the US was only after ISIL, that's ok. The US was arming Syrian rebels, and doesn't have the ground intelligence to know ISIL from the Syrian rebels. They are fightng each other, and ISIL was winning and taking the arms (along with other arms supplied by Saudi & Qatar). Free Syrian Army have Al Nusra members too.

    Putin doesn't give a damn about a 'free Syrian Army' revolution. He has Assad's, Iraq's and Iran's backing, and his job is to exterminate ISIL and anyone else fighting the government of Syria at this moment. That is a simpler mission, and easier to achieve. I'm 100% with him on it.

    I agree. Instead of bleating about Assad the west needs to get on message and wipe out ISIL first.

    We armed rebels in Afghanistan in the 80s and look how that turned out?

  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    You have to be joking. Russia is only in this mess, because they want Assad to stay in power. Putin didn't give a damn about the above picture I posted.
    Putin is after ISIL. That's all I know, and that's why he gets my support. Wholeheartedly.

    And once the USA is after ISIS, it gets slammed for it. Double standards. We seriously need to tone down our hate of the USA.
    If you want to believe that the US was only after ISIL, that's ok. The US was arming Syrian rebels, and doesn't have the ground intelligence to know ISIL from the Syrian rebels. They are fightng each other, and ISIL was winning and taking the arms (along with other arms supplied by Saudi & Qatar). Free Syrian Army have Al Nusra members too.

    Putin doesn't give a damn about a 'free Syrian Army' revolution. He has Assad's, Iraq's and Iran's backing, and his job is to exterminate ISIL and anyone else fighting the government of Syria at this moment. That is a simpler mission, and easier to achieve. I'm 100% with him on it.

    I agree. Instead of bleating about Assad the west needs to get on message and wipe out ISIL first.

    We armed rebels in Afghanistan in the 80s and look how that turned out?

    I fear that Hollande and Cameron are about to turn one mighty shit storm into an even bigger one.

    They really haven't got a clue what they're doing or why.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    You have to be joking. Russia is only in this mess, because they want Assad to stay in power. Putin didn't give a damn about the above picture I posted.
    Putin is after ISIL. That's all I know, and that's why he gets my support. Wholeheartedly.

    And once the USA is after ISIS, it gets slammed for it. Double standards. We seriously need to tone down our hate of the USA.
    If you want to believe that the US was only after ISIL, that's ok. The US was arming Syrian rebels, and doesn't have the ground intelligence to know ISIL from the Syrian rebels. They are fightng each other, and ISIL was winning and taking the arms (along with other arms supplied by Saudi & Qatar). Free Syrian Army have Al Nusra members too.

    Putin doesn't give a damn about a 'free Syrian Army' revolution. He has Assad's, Iraq's and Iran's backing, and his job is to exterminate ISIL and anyone else fighting the government of Syria at this moment. That is a simpler mission, and easier to achieve. I'm 100% with him on it.

    I agree. Instead of bleating about Assad the west needs to get on message and wipe out ISIL first.

    We armed rebels in Afghanistan in the 80s and look how that turned out?

    This is exactly the same.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    An interesting consequence of the shooting down of the fighter: a restoration of Israeli-Turkish relations. https://www.yahoo.com/news/turkey-needs-israel-says-erdogan-133335552.html
Sign In or Register to comment.