Looking through John Logan's script for "Spectre"

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  • edited December 2015 Posts: 15,117
    Shardlake wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Making him Franz Oberhauser was a bad idea probably one of the worst in the whole series history, quite frankly it would have at least been separate to Bond if they'd gone with the African warlord, I know which one I'd rather live with.

    I'm getting more and more annoyed about this element.

    @Shardlake, what exactly about this do you consider so bad? I'm just asking because I seem to have missed some of your other posts. :-)

    Because the whole idea of making Blofeld connected to Bond's distant past must go down as one of the worst in the history of the series.

    I know some think this is fine and they think it's done subtlety but to me and others it's like a sore thumb and now it's shackled this era with this nonsense.

    I have no problem with tying the films together but I'm no script writer but if you look at my posts in the how would you have done it differently I came up with a much better idea than P&W did.

    The tying together is no lame it feels like an after thought they had a chance to really do this justice but instead it was lame. SP for me has now sullied this era and there is no way to back away from it, it's out there and Purvis & Wade need to go.

    I could n't care less about the Brosnan era Bond ended in 1989 and then began again in 2006.

    It was a bad idea because it's a bad idea? And a tautology is a tautology. Come on!

    @Pierce2Daniel-Sorry but no. Chiwetel Ejiofor is no Blofeld and certainly not in that video. People can complain a lot about the Oberhauser connection, but at least Oberhauser came from Fleming and Blofeld did have German blood in the original novels. So they made an effort to tie him in, however loosely, to the novels' Blofeld. Who is not an African warlord, especially not a young one. Or a woman.
  • Posts: 5,767
    WTF? Bond´s last mission? Bond is a sure-fire money machine, and someone seriously thought the idea of Bond´s last mission would be great?? Almost immediately after re-booting the series with rookie Bond?? And on top of that, they put the idea of bringing back the biggest villain in Bond history?? This is absolutely amazing.


    "So here’s the big question – what was Blofeld’s big plan? Blowing up the Nato event and causing the blackout doesn’t seem that much worse than prior villain plots. If we’re pulling all the threads together and saying this was all part of a bigger play then we need to know what that was and how all those moments led to this… and if he was the villain behind the last three movies but we never knew that then I wonder how hard we have to work to get the audience to remember/rethink the past and attribute all their (and Bond’s) animosity towards him. He has to be a serious threat in this movie – with a big enough plan for Bond to thwart – to help support his uber villain status."
    Yeah, it would have been nice if they had realised that in the film.


    Interesting to read about an "eyeball camera", which appeared in both of the last M:I films ;-).


    At some point someone asks if maybe there´s just too much going on. Not a bad question also regarding the final product. Not the most meaningful comparison, I know, but I just re-watched M:I4, and I find it brilliant how much tension is created there using just one simple premise, which is there pretty much from the start.


    Interesting that Blofeld´s motivation always seemed to be a problem. Also that Mendes mentions that they stopped halfway in the desert. I feel they never solved those problems.
  • Posts: 15,117
    "Bond's last mission" is more like a publicity stunt for me than anything else. Like killing Bond at the beginning of the film.

    And if being able to see and know everything the secret services of nine nations see and know is pretty much a grand scale scheme that has major consequences.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Agreed, people get so worked up over that whole "brothers" tie in. It's so minor it's nothing. Hell it's better handled than Blofeld's reveal in YOLT and after DAF his character was ruined. At least he's returned to the classic Blofeld of the shadows while retaining the visual elements of the seen character. This is how I imagined Blofeld had they done him right the first time and he looks like Blofeld from the OHMSS novel so brownie points.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Murdock wrote: »
    Agreed, people get so worked up over that whole "brothers" tie in. It's so minor it's nothing. Hell it's better handled than Blofeld's reveal in YOLT and after DAF his character was ruined. At least he's returned to the classic Blofeld of the shadows while retaining the visual elements of the seen character. This is how I imagined Blofeld had they done him right the first time and he looks like Blofeld from the OHMSS novel so brownie points.

    And it is mile better than a youthful African warlord as Blofeld, or Denbigh as Blofeld, or Ernestina Blofeld as Blofeld. AND closer to Fleming as well.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Agreed, people get so worked up over that whole "brothers" tie in. It's so minor it's nothing. Hell it's better handled than Blofeld's reveal in YOLT and after DAF his character was ruined. At least he's returned to the classic Blofeld of the shadows while retaining the visual elements of the seen character. This is how I imagined Blofeld had they done him right the first time and he looks like Blofeld from the OHMSS novel so brownie points.

    And it is mile better than a youthful African warlord as Blofeld, or Denbigh as Blofeld, or Ernestina Blofeld as Blofeld. AND closer to Fleming as well.

    Indeed. Though they can use the African Warlord for a future Bond movie and name him Buonapart Ignace Gallia.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Murdock wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Agreed, people get so worked up over that whole "brothers" tie in. It's so minor it's nothing. Hell it's better handled than Blofeld's reveal in YOLT and after DAF his character was ruined. At least he's returned to the classic Blofeld of the shadows while retaining the visual elements of the seen character. This is how I imagined Blofeld had they done him right the first time and he looks like Blofeld from the OHMSS novel so brownie points.

    And it is mile better than a youthful African warlord as Blofeld, or Denbigh as Blofeld, or Ernestina Blofeld as Blofeld. AND closer to Fleming as well.

    Indeed. Though they can use the African Warlord for a future Bond movie and name him Buonapart Ignace Gallia.

    And thus tying it to Fleming again. But this time, not a rather nice looking Ejiofor but an older, heavier Black guy.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Agreed, people get so worked up over that whole "brothers" tie in. It's so minor it's nothing. Hell it's better handled than Blofeld's reveal in YOLT and after DAF his character was ruined. At least he's returned to the classic Blofeld of the shadows while retaining the visual elements of the seen character. This is how I imagined Blofeld had they done him right the first time and he looks like Blofeld from the OHMSS novel so brownie points.

    And it is mile better than a youthful African warlord as Blofeld, or Denbigh as Blofeld, or Ernestina Blofeld as Blofeld. AND closer to Fleming as well.

    Indeed. Though they can use the African Warlord for a future Bond movie and name him Buonapart Ignace Gallia.

    And thus tying it to Fleming again. But this time, not a rather nice looking Ejiofor but an older, heavier Black guy.
    Right.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Lets face none of the ideas in the scripts or in the final film were any good but the brother thing for some maybe fine but to me I would rather it never happened.

    The old MI6 scene is the worst climatic set piece of the Craig era.

    Some of you just forgive it all because SPECTRE presents the most Bondian film of this era, I liked them being teased back in but a bunch of elements is not going to make forget what they did here, it's likely to leave the Craig era with somewhat of a taint.

    They need to make sure that they stay as far away from this if Craig returns to take on Blofeld again in Bond 25 but my fear is whether it be Mendes or whoever for some reason a number directors including Spielberg loved this element and I can see the next possible candidate wanting to run some more with it.

    Fair enough some of you can think it made no difference but I've had to put with how terrible Skyfall was with it's plot holes and Mendes digging into Bond's past.

    What is ironic though is those that seemed to have been so annoyed by that film embrace SPECTRE which to me does far more damage to the character than anything in Skyfall.
  • I noticed that too. I read the script before the movie came out. Then I heard that they were going to re-write. Then I heard Newman talking about the scoring process, saying that the movie "changed a lot" or "changed dramatically" over time. Then I went to the cinema and it was exactly what I read in the script, minus a few things.
  • Posts: 15,117
    I don't know at what stage the script was written when you read it, but Blofeld is not a woman or an African warlord. I find this a major thing from earlier drafts.
  • boldfinger wrote: »
    Interesting to read about an "eyeball camera", which appeared in both of the last M:I films ;-).

    At one stage of writing of the script, Bond entered an used record shop that was in fact a MI6 contact point...


  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    boldfinger wrote: »
    Interesting to read about an "eyeball camera", which appeared in both of the last M:I films ;-).

    At one stage of writing of the script, Bond entered an used record shop that was in fact a MI6 contact point...


    Really? I remember suggesting a similar locale for SF when people asked how they could've made better use of London. I offered up a record shop or greasy spoon in New Cross as an access point to Q branch. Would still like to see it.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    If memory serves correct, Rogue Nation used a record shop as a contact point, correct?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    doubleoego wrote: »
    If memory serves correct, Rogue Nation used a record shop as a contact point, correct?
    Yes, you're correct, they did.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited December 2015 Posts: 28,694
    I've laughed my arse off over everyone getting upset at Blofeld being Bond's foster brother. I want to say, "relax guys, it's not like Monique popped out Franz and Bond at the same moment and they were raised from the crib together."

    The only connection Bond and Franz have is this: Bond's parents die, Bond befriends Hannes Oberhauser, Oberhauser agrees to be his guardian for just two short years, during which he teaches James many of the skills he goes on to use in his service of Britain, and that's it. End of story. Bond probably barely even knew Franz at all, and if he did it was likely a one-sided relationship as Franz resented him and likely would've ignored him at every turn.

    There weren't blood brothers, they weren't best friends turned frenemies turned enemies; they interacted for two years and then never saw each other again until SP's present day. Therefore, saying they have some big "past history" in the movie and the established canon of the Craig era is beyond laughable and just doesn't hold water. But I'm sure people will continue to fuss about it day and bloody night.
    RC7 wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    Interesting to read about an "eyeball camera", which appeared in both of the last M:I films ;-).

    At one stage of writing of the script, Bond entered an used record shop that was in fact a MI6 contact point...


    Really? I remember suggesting a similar locale for SF when people asked how they could've made better use of London. I offered up a record shop or greasy spoon in New Cross as an access point to Q branch. Would still like to see it.

    @RC7, you didn't happen to write for Mission Impossible: Rogue Nation, did you? :-?
  • edited December 2015 Posts: 2,015
    Therefore, saying they have some big "past history" in the movie and the established canon of the Craig era is beyond laughable and just doesn't hold water. But I'm sure people will continue to fuss about it day and bloody night.

    Well, the past relationship is the basis of Blofeld's motivation in SPECTRE. And the fact Bond knew Blofeld and thought he was dead is one of the "dead are alive" symbol of this movie. And well, probably, the intended "subtle" meaning of the title of the movie, no less (Mendes pointed out it's *not* S.P.E.C.T.R.E.).

    Notes :

    1) In one of the available scripts, SPECTRE's name is explained when Bond looks at White's archives, as coming from "Les Spectres de Pierre", the name of the French Foreign Legion group where Oberhauser and White first met. But it was deleted and they made it far more symbolic.

    2) Also, in one of the scripts, the "Brother" angle is stronger than in the movie. "Brother !" is even Blofeld's last word before Bond kills him on the bridge if I remember correctly. Well, someone probably decided it was too much...




  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Therefore, saying they have some big "past history" in the movie and the established canon of the Craig era is beyond laughable and just doesn't hold water. But I'm sure people will continue to fuss about it day and bloody night.

    Well, the past relationship is the basis of Blofeld's motivation in SPECTRE. And the fact Bond knew Blofeld and thought he was dead is one of the "dead are alive" symbol of this movie. And well, probably, the intended "subtle" meaning of the title of the movie, no less (Mendes pointed out it's *not* S.P.E.C.T.R.E.).

    Notes :

    1) In one of the available scripts, SPECTRE's name is explained when Bond looks at White's archives, as coming from "Les Spectres de Pierre", the name of the French Foreign Legion group where Oberhauser and White first met. But it was deleted and they made it far more symbolic.

    2) Also, in one of the scripts, the "Brother" angle is stronger than in the movie. "Brother !" is even Blofeld's last word before Bond kills him on the bridge if I remember correctly. Well, someone probably decided it was too much...

    I see Blofeld's main motivations for heading SPECTRE to take control and make everyone feel his impact; if Bond wouldn't have come along that would still be a central part of his make-up. So while Bond disrupted his relationship with his father and drove him to end his life, his actions in SPECTRE and the organization's effects on Bond are for most of his life mutually exclusive; it's only until Bond is back on his radar that he even thinks on him again. One way or another, Bond or no Bond, he was likely going to chart a path that led to his attempt to hold power.
  • StrelikStrelik Spectre Island
    Posts: 108
    - Additionally there is no reference made to Franz Oberhauser (it would appear that the half-brother nonsense came during P&W's run at the script).
    Not surprising. I'm not a fan of John Logan, but Eon's strange obsession with re-hiring P&W again and again is mind-boggling. There are so many great screenwriters in the UK. It's a shame that Eon won't cast a wider net.
  • edited December 2015 Posts: 2,015
    I see Blofeld's main motivations for heading SPECTRE to take control and make everyone feel his impact; if Bond wouldn't have come along that would still be a central part of his make-up. So while Bond disrupted his relationship with his father and drove him to end his life, his actions in SPECTRE and the organization's effects on Bond are for most of his life mutually exclusive; it's only until Bond is back on his radar that he even thinks on him again. One way or another, Bond or no Bond, he was likely going to chart a path that led to his attempt to hold power.

    I think this is a 'realistic' approach of the character that is far from the intent of Mendes. IMO, for Mendes, Blofeld is Bond's nemesis, and not just a villain who meets Bond twice (as a kid and as head of SPECTRE) by coincidence.

    They backed down from this angle a lot in the final movie, but in the last scripts, it's a bit all over the place. In theRome meeting scene, he was even supposed to speak with a kid's voice when he suddenly talks to Bond ! The "cuckoo" word is all that is left and the "speak like a kid" is only very subtle in this word, if even it's supposed to be there.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I see Blofeld's main motivations for heading SPECTRE to take control and make everyone feel his impact; if Bond wouldn't have come along that would still be a central part of his make-up. So while Bond disrupted his relationship with his father and drove him to end his life, his actions in SPECTRE and the organization's effects on Bond are for most of his life mutually exclusive; it's only until Bond is back on his radar that he even thinks on him again. One way or another, Bond or no Bond, he was likely going to chart a path that led to his attempt to hold power.

    I think this is a 'realistic' approach of the character that is far from the intent of Mendes. IMO, for Mendes, Blofeld is Bond's nemesis, and not just a villain who meets Bond twice (as a kid and as head of SPECTRE) by coincidence.

    They backed down from this angle a lot in the final movie, but in the last scripts as I wrote, it's a bit all over the place. In the meeting scene, he was even supposed to take a kid's voice to speak to Bond ! The "cuckoo" word is all that is left and the "speak like a kid" is only very subtle in this word, if even it's supposed to be there.

    This was in the Logan script/s?
  • edited December 2015 Posts: 2,015
    Well all scripts have all the names on them IIRC, the "Logan" and "P&W" scripts are shortcuts to describe the scripts - while if we were rigorous we should only talk about the dates -. It's only with the notes and comments we can guess what disappared and what remains. If this kid singing in the Rome scene is not in the earlier scripts but no one commented about it in the mails, then no one has a way to know it wasn't there before etc...

    Note : even in the last script we have, a few days before the Pinewood press conference, the Rome meeting is quite different, Bond is more witty (to enter the meeting and to leave), they all wear masks, Blofeld has a far longer speech before talking to Bond (he somehow explains they are in Roma because of the Emperor etc), there are hundreds of real human eyes on the table etc...

    If you think "the dead are alive" symbols are hammered in SPECTRE, well in the script, we have this and "Big brother is waching you" that is hammered too !

    PS : I may be mixing the 2nd and 3rd script (I read them months ago !)

    PPS: A better example of how important their common past is in the script : the torture scene from Colonel Sun doesn't exist, instead they re-create a poker game (yes again !) they used to play when they were kids. And Bond keep on saying he doesn't remember anything about it, while he actually does very well - and he finally reveals this to Blofeld near the end.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Real human eyes on the table in Rome? A game they used to play as kids? A kid singing? This script actually exists?! I mean, somebody actually wrote all that?!

    Again, HOW was what we got subpar to this?
  • GettlerGettler USA
    Posts: 326
    Thinking about it, I guess Blofeld only "lived twice"
  • SuperintendentSuperintendent A separate pool. For sharks, no less.
    Posts: 871
    I'm sorry, but I can't buy the downplay of Bond-Oberhauser childhood connection.

    "My father asked me to treat him as my little brother"
    "You are responsible for the path I took"
    "Brothers know what buttons to push"
    "The author of all your pain"
    The whole story about cuckoo's nest...


    These are Blofeld's words, and I don't think he utters them just to tease Bond. Bond's entry in Oberhauser's life when they were children is the important part of Blofeld's character arc. It's one of the reasons why Oberhauser becomes Blofeld, and I think that cannot be ignored. Bond accidentally becomes the kick-starter of his criminal life, and that's just something that sits bad with me. I don't like to see that in a Bond film.

    If their past is just something casual and irrelevant, then why is it even brought up?
  • edited December 2015 Posts: 2,015
    If their past is just something casual and irrelevant, then why is it even brought up?

    Mendes "tried to quit" during the rewrite of the 3rd act. Well, that is an internal mail, people should not take that seriously. But it's true it feels like there is a lack of direction at the end between the scripts and the movie. The script was more intense (except for the torture scene in the movie) but more "in your face" too. Eh, at one moment Q kills a henchman ! Possibly just for the "trigger" line reference to SF ?

    So yes, the Bond-Blofeld brothership is in the dialog but it's "downplayed (a lot) compared to the script" so that indeed some of the audience can think, well, that relationship is just a twist for the sake of it, and that it can be forgotten the second it's revealed.

    IMO, I think it'll be forgotten in the next movie. It's such a dead-end, story wise. What next ? Hannes is not dead ? Hannes killed Andrew ? Hannes is Bond's real father ?
  • Posts: 1,680
    Where does MI6 & the 00 program stand after SP?

    The 00 program is disbanded unnofficially, the MI6 building is destroyed, Bond drove off into the sunset.

    It will be interesting to see how this is all handled in B25.
  • SuperintendentSuperintendent A separate pool. For sharks, no less.
    Posts: 871
    If their past is just something casual and irrelevant, then why is it even brought up?

    Mendes "tried to quit" during the rewrite of the 3rd act. Well, that is an internal mail, people should not take that seriously. But it's true it feels like there is a lack of direction at the end between the scripts and the movie. The script was more intense (except for the torture scene in the movie) but more "in your face" too. Eh, at one moment Q kills a henchman ! Possibly just for the "trigger" line reference to SF ?

    So yes, the Bond-Blofeld brothership is in the dialog but it's "downplayed (a lot) compared to the script" so that indeed some of the audience can think, well, that relationship is just a twist for the sake of it, and that it can be forgotten the second it's revealed.

    IMO, I think it'll be forgotten in the next movie. It's such a dead-end, story wise. What next ? Hannes is not dead ? Hannes killed Andrew ? Hannes is Bond's real father ?

    Unfortunately, I'm not the one who can just forget about it. I agree it's a dead-end, and it makes no sense to exploit it further.

    That's interesting, though. I stayed away from the leaks and spoilers, so all of this is new to me. Is the screenwriting process usually such a mess?
  • Posts: 859
    A few questions:

    1) There were 3 scripts? I thought there was two.

    2) I know that Tanner was going to possibly be a traitor, but at what point did this get switched to M? I can't find any info.

    3) Was Tanner going to shoot himself at one point?

    4) Was Blofeld supposed to be revealed with bandages and a drip at the Rome meeting? If so, do we know why?

    Yes for the 4. (there are some infos here, including Loga tentative, http://www.commander007.net/2015/11/spectre-autres-scripts/ , btw)

    I'm sorry, but do you mean yes is the answer to question 4?

    No, yes is the answer for the 4 question ;)
  • edited December 2015 Posts: 5,767
    I've laughed my arse off over everyone getting upset at Blofeld being Bond's foster brother. I want to say, "relax guys, it's not like Monique popped out Franz and Bond at the same moment and they were raised from the crib together."

    The only connection Bond and Franz have is this: Bond's parents die, Bond befriends Hannes Oberhauser, Oberhauser agrees to be his guardian for just two short years, during which he teaches James many of the skills he goes on to use in his service of Britain, and that's it. End of story. Bond probably barely even knew Franz at all, and if he did it was likely a one-sided relationship as Franz resented him and likely would've ignored him at every turn.

    There weren't blood brothers, they weren't best friends turned frenemies turned enemies; they interacted for two years and then never saw each other again until SP's present day. Therefore, saying they have some big "past history" in the movie and the established canon of the Craig era is beyond laughable and just doesn't hold water. But I'm sure people will continue to fuss about it day and bloody night.
    Well, for one, it´s completely superfluous and does rather diminish than enhance the relationship between Bond and Blofeld, at least the way it´s done. And Bond saying Oberhauser is not a person he´d forget strongly indicates that their years together left an impression. Which, again, is transposed very poorly in the film.
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