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That's why I've always said, right from the initial leaks, that SP was written as Craig's last. I'm sure EON will want him back (it's just easier more than anything else, to shell out for the established draw and delay the risk of the next actor flopping), and maybe Craig himself will fancy another one (I think with the reception SP got, this is more likely, maybe he'll want to finish the franchise with the amount of critical acclaim he got from SF and CR), but I think it's clear that it was written as his final film. The callbacks to previous Craig films and the ending make this clear. Because as you've said, they've backed themselves into a corner. Their only real options are to either write her out with just a few throwaway lines and have Bond on a new, perhaps Blofeldless mission (making SP look like a joke) or kill her off, essentially retreading Vesper just a few films later. I doubt this was something that the writers really wanted. I bet they've planned for the possibility of a fifth Craig film but from the script, and comments of those involved in production (like the costume designer), I think it's pretty clear that SP was produced as Craig's swansong. I think the mixed reception of SP also makes a fifth Craig film a little less likely as they have backed them self into a corner and I don't think that the majority of audience members will be thrilled to see a continuation of that storyline. I'm honestly not sure what's going to happen. EON will without a doubt Craig back if they can as he's a big money maker and they seem to really like him, but will he want to return? And will they really want to continue the story of SP after the reception it got? They more or less completely dropped the Quantum storyline in favour of the more fan friendly Blofeld/SPECTRE, so I am wondering if they're not at least considering doing the same here. But doing that would mean a reboot with a new actor, and will EON want to do that if Craig does decide he'd like to make another one? Lots of different factors at play here I think. It'll be very interesting to see whether DC returns or not. But anyway, enough rambling, my point was that I think SP was written as his last.
@bondjames I didn't really have a problem with the SP theme at first, I thought the somber tone fit the film quite well. But the more I listen to it the worse it becomes, the lyrics are about as far from Bondanian as you can get and Sam Smith's comments about it really got on my nerves. Can't believe it won the Oscar. I wouldn't say it's the worst Bond theme, it's not down there with DAD and AWTD (Jack White what were you thinking?), it still has a decent melody and I do like the general moodiness of it. But the falsetto parts and the lyrics just aren't James Bond to me, at all.
I can see where @doubleoego is coming from. Most of the films objectively speaking are probably quite average from a film making (in terms of cinematography and all the rest of it) and writing POV, and the majority of them are not complex or deep at all (I mean even going back to the start that's true, as well made as the early Connery Bonds are, there's zero depth there. Bond turns up, saves the world, gets the girl, the end).
BUT not everything has to be complex or deep. Not everything has to be a piece of art or a masterpiece. I've loved James Bond for nearly all my life (it's bordering on 30 years since I saw my first Bond film). And that's because I've gotten more enjoyment out of the series than any other. And at the end of the day isn't the reason we watch films to be entertained? Whether he's starring in a character piece that breaks down why he is who he is or an OTT blockbuster where he drives a sports car into the sea and it turns into a submarine, you can't deny that Bond is always entertaining. I watch films to be entertained and the Bond films do that better than any others for me. Other action flicks are frequently producing better action scenes for sure, and there are definitely better thrillers, dramas, etc than what's on offer in the Bond films. But I don't really care about that. I enjoy watching my childhood hero doing what he does best with more style than anyone else. The Bond films are unique. While it's probably true that there's nothing especially exceptional about most of them, the unique formula is something I'll never get tired of watching. The action, adventure, cars, girls, glamour, exotic locations, the theme songs, the suave sophisticated hard faced hard drinking badass at the center of it all, the man that every bloke has probably wished they were at some point in their lifetime. Other films have some of these ingredients and a lot of other films do the individual ingredients better but you can't beat the unique cocktail of ingredients that makes a Bond film a Bond film imo.
So yeah the films are probably quite average but it's still my favourite franchise because I have more fun watching them than any other. SP was a testament to this. All these years later and I'm still being blown away by the new Bond film (SP is now my favourite, it's at least tied with LTK for me). Was SP the best film of 2015? Probably not. But it's definitely the one I enjoyed the most. And that can be applied to Bond as a whole for me.
=))
yes, it's called the herd mentality... i know all about it.
or DAD might just be a p.o.s?? lol
i think what my real problem is with what your suggesting with CR, is that you believe if it wasn't for this "herd mentality" on this forum - that that film wouldn't be ranked as high as it is (which would in theory, prove your point).... meaning that you believe the majority of us simply go with the flow with our opinions of it, so we avoid being the odd man out.... i respect that you believe that - but i think thats a load of BS..... sorry..
I have seen plenty - PLENTY on these boards that don't rank that film as high as some others.... just because the majority of us do doesn't mean we are merely trying to "fit in"..... or that we are all some collective hive mind... and i can only speak for myself - but i don't shame someone if they don't fall in line with what i think (i know others get off on that).. but i don't - and a lot of us more level headed folk around here don't either..
again, i don't disagree about herd mentality in general - but using it to explain away CR's popularity here (because you have a differing opinion on it) is nonsense, and coming from a skewed/bias motive - not an objective one.....
but it's hard to prove that, since it's not something tangible - it's like trying to prove a negative... and i really am in no mood to go around in circles on this - because that's all we'd be doing lol.
so - agree to disagree.
Thanks you! You saved me a whole lot of time there. I'd first like tto say I never said tge Bind films were a "rubbish product" those arebt my words.
Secondly I even said I've been a fan all my life so far. These films are entertaining which is why I'm a fan but I'm not blind neither and to me the series isn't a collection of masterpieces with the odd misstep here and there as some fans believe them to be. The films, everything Bond are nonsense admittedly so by Fleming himself albeit entertaining nonsense and as far as I'm concerned with a handful of really good films in an otherwise overall average collection I'm a massive fan.
Die Hard's doing great people tell me.
Bond movies aren't meant to be Oscar productions or Hitchcock films. But there's a reason why they've lasted so long and adapted so many times. Think of another franchise with that level of adaptability.
Did you mean menace?
Thinking about it, DAF is a comedy, it's that simple. Sometimes a dark comedy (Wint & Kidd), sometimes slapstick, sometimes outright funny.
Could DAF be called a cult classic?
34 minutes into OHMSS we have Tracy going from disliking Bond to secretly having feelings for him and then being full blown in love caithness him and all done credibly...and that's within 34 minutes. The Bond/Swann relationship induces eye rolling from me and I think it really hurts the film given what we the audience are expected to take from their relationship. Oh well back to watching OHMSS.
I think it is quickly earning a cult status among Bond fans. It's such a unique film, there really is nothing else like it in the franchise. I don't consider Moore era comedy to be anything like the same as DAF is, although there is a few moments of overlap (the comedy sheriff, for instance.) I think DAF is the only 'dark comedy' in the series, with some silliness thrown in. The Moore era is very rarely dark and funny at the same time. 'Wint and Kidd' are an example of this from DAF, menacing and hilarious simultaneously. Those are some underrated henchmen.
I know some don't like the venice climax ( I love it) but the convincing element of Craig's grief and anger coupled with the betrayal of Vesper and dealing with her loss. In that scene I believe it and far more convincing than anything in SPECTRE.
OHMSS is a masterclass in writing Bond, Maibaum with polishes has never been better.
This multiplied by a million.
The Venice climax is so thrilling and wonderfully shot. And it's Venice!
I always loved it, and I cried bitter tears over Vesper's death. One of the best moments in the whole franchise together with Tracy's death.
audience I don't think we have to be spoon fed every detail.
Yes! Which is why they should bring Campbell and Arnold back for Daniel's Swann song. ;)
I'm choosing to interpret the "I love you" line as a result of the terror she was witnessing.
Yes, I meant menace. I don't think of DAF as darky comic, it's camp, it's fat Elvis in a jumpsuit, it's gaudy.
And it was love at first sight for Madeline. :D
There's being spoon fed and there's having to write the script yourself.
If I have to spend hours imagining scenes of Bond and Madeline going mountain biking or to see Mamma Mia together to make the relationship credible then you've failed as a director and a scriptwriter.
Same goes for trying to make sense of the relationship between Quantum and SPECTRE and how the ring links everything. A throwaway line here and there and a 3 second shot of Q doing some sort of chemical scan doesn't really fill in all the holes for me.
Just a thought Sam but maybe think about that next time you're pretentiously spending 5 minutes of screen time following Bond walking up the street and into a hotel room or blowing up half the budget just to get yourself on Record Breakers with Roy Castle & Norris Mcwhirter?
@TheWizardofIce
"There's being spoon fed and there's having to write the script yourself" :))
=)) That just made my day =))
But, but...... :((
Connery is a shadow of himself in DAF. Unbelievable if you think that it's only 4 years after YOLT.
If DAF had been a OHMSS style movie, Connery's lackluster performance and looks would have been a disaster of gigantic proportions. But as DAF is pure comedy bordering on parody at times, it didn't matter that much and the movie can be seen as pure camp fun.