In time, will SP be more or less appreciated?

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  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    Have a dinner scene and the torture scene.

    Obviously the running time would be getting excessive so bin the limp London finale and have the climax in the crater base.

    I quite liked the finale in the abandoned MI6 building, I wouldn't get rid of that. We had big battle setpieces at the end of QoS and SF anyway. The SP finale was something original and I really enjoyed it. I just wish that M had actually killed C, and I wish that they'd stuck with the London blackout idea from the script instead of just having Bond be captured again. Still a brilliant finale though imo. Loved the creepy Scaramanga's funhouse vibe of the old MI6, the shot of Bond staring down Blofeld's helicopter, etc. Brilliant stuff. And while you're right about the lack of tension with Q and Nine Eyes, I thought a lot of tension came from Bond desperately looking for Madeline and then from their escape. The stakes were more personal and the finale was more sombre and tense than big and bombastic. Which I thought was great and a fitting end to the Craig era which has focused on more personal character driven conflicts.

    The torture scene was really good but it just felt out of place. It's immediately forgotten about, Bond is still able to effortlessly shoot or take down henchmen, he's even able to bring a helicopter down with just his ppk, despite Blofeld saying he'd lose his memory and motor skills and all this. It feels very shoehorned in, even if there weren't the leak to use as reference it'd clear that it wasn't in the original script.

    i was expecting one last fist fight with Hinx in the ruins of MI6... i think he exited the film too early, and i think the only way to fully salvage the ending we got, should've been to have Hinx come back and fight Bond one last time.... imagine - the clock is ticking, Bond has to find Swann and get out - Bond is running through rooms looking for her, when he gets blindsided by Hinx - who is more than willing to fight Bond to the death (as it were).... that i feel was the missing element in that finale that could've turned something i felt was superfluous, into something bombastic and awesome.
  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    edited June 2016 Posts: 1,130
    If I analyze the film with a little more detail and being picky its an 8.5/10

    The film is highly entretaining woth these old school vibe Bond and all the nice homages to the past films and i did like all the performances including Waltz Blofeld and Craig's more light hesrted version of Bond.
    The locations, score, cinematography and costumes are perfect


    What takes this film to an 8.5 is how the prodcuers got themselves trapped in doing a reboot for the next Bond actor or if Craig comes back a direct sequel just like any other movie franchise.

    Just changing 2 details could have saved us from that corner
    1 avoiding Blofeld being Bond's foster brother
    2 avoiding Bond falling in love and leaving the service for Madeline.



  • HASEROT wrote: »
    Have a dinner scene and the torture scene.

    Obviously the running time would be getting excessive so bin the limp London finale and have the climax in the crater base.

    I quite liked the finale in the abandoned MI6 building, I wouldn't get rid of that. We had big battle setpieces at the end of QoS and SF anyway. The SP finale was something original and I really enjoyed it. I just wish that M had actually killed C, and I wish that they'd stuck with the London blackout idea from the script instead of just having Bond be captured again. Still a brilliant finale though imo. Loved the creepy Scaramanga's funhouse vibe of the old MI6, the shot of Bond staring down Blofeld's helicopter, etc. Brilliant stuff. And while you're right about the lack of tension with Q and Nine Eyes, I thought a lot of tension came from Bond desperately looking for Madeline and then from their escape. The stakes were more personal and the finale was more sombre and tense than big and bombastic. Which I thought was great and a fitting end to the Craig era which has focused on more personal character driven conflicts.

    The torture scene was really good but it just felt out of place. It's immediately forgotten about, Bond is still able to effortlessly shoot or take down henchmen, he's even able to bring a helicopter down with just his ppk, despite Blofeld saying he'd lose his memory and motor skills and all this. It feels very shoehorned in, even if there weren't the leak to use as reference it'd clear that it wasn't in the original script.

    i was expecting one last fist fight with Hinx in the ruins of MI6... i think he exited the film too early, and i think the only way to fully salvage the ending we got, should've been to have Hinx come back and fight Bond one last time.... imagine - the clock is ticking, Bond has to find Swann and get out - Bond is running through rooms looking for her, when he gets blindsided by Hinx - who is more than willing to fight Bond to the death (as it were).... that i feel was the missing element in that finale that could've turned something i felt was superfluous, into something bombastic and awesome.

    I was expecting a final fight in the ruins as well. Very disappointed that Hinx died so early!!!
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I don't think I ever even considered a fight in the MI6 ruins between Bond and Hinx. That would've been good, and would've actually made the finale both fun and interesting.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Szonana wrote: »
    What takes this film to an 8.5 is how the prodcuers got themselves trapped in doing a reboot for the next Bond actor or if Craig comes back a direct sequel just like any other movie franchise.

    Just changing 2 details could have saved us from that corner
    1 avoiding Blofeld being Bond's foster brother
    2 avoiding Bond falling in love and leaving the service for Madeline.
    That is a fine observation, and one which I'm sure they must have considered before giving it to us. Why box themselves in like this? It's almost like it was intentional.
  • Posts: 4,044
    bondjames wrote: »
    Szonana wrote: »
    What takes this film to an 8.5 is how the prodcuers got themselves trapped in doing a reboot for the next Bond actor or if Craig comes back a direct sequel just like any other movie franchise.

    Just changing 2 details could have saved us from that corner
    1 avoiding Blofeld being Bond's foster brother
    2 avoiding Bond falling in love and leaving the service for Madeline.
    That is a fine observation, and one which I'm sure they must have considered before giving it to us. Why box themselves in like this? It's almost like it was intentional.

    They are only boxed in if they worry about continuity. It hasn't worried them much in the past.
  • Posts: 1,092
    HASEROT wrote: »
    Have a dinner scene and the torture scene.

    Obviously the running time would be getting excessive so bin the limp London finale and have the climax in the crater base.

    I quite liked the finale in the abandoned MI6 building, I wouldn't get rid of that. We had big battle setpieces at the end of QoS and SF anyway. The SP finale was something original and I really enjoyed it. I just wish that M had actually killed C, and I wish that they'd stuck with the London blackout idea from the script instead of just having Bond be captured again. Still a brilliant finale though imo. Loved the creepy Scaramanga's funhouse vibe of the old MI6, the shot of Bond staring down Blofeld's helicopter, etc. Brilliant stuff. And while you're right about the lack of tension with Q and Nine Eyes, I thought a lot of tension came from Bond desperately looking for Madeline and then from their escape. The stakes were more personal and the finale was more sombre and tense than big and bombastic. Which I thought was great and a fitting end to the Craig era which has focused on more personal character driven conflicts.

    The torture scene was really good but it just felt out of place. It's immediately forgotten about, Bond is still able to effortlessly shoot or take down henchmen, he's even able to bring a helicopter down with just his ppk, despite Blofeld saying he'd lose his memory and motor skills and all this. It feels very shoehorned in, even if there weren't the leak to use as reference it'd clear that it wasn't in the original script.

    i was expecting one last fist fight with Hinx in the ruins of MI6... i think he exited the film too early, and i think the only way to fully salvage the ending we got, should've been to have Hinx come back and fight Bond one last time.... imagine - the clock is ticking, Bond has to find Swann and get out - Bond is running through rooms looking for her, when he gets blindsided by Hinx - who is more than willing to fight Bond to the death (as it were).... that i feel was the missing element in that finale that could've turned something i felt was superfluous, into something bombastic and awesome.

    I was expecting a final fight in the ruins as well. Very disappointed that Hinx died so early!!!

    Who said he's dead? I never saw that scene. Just cuz he got pulled off a train doesn't mean he's gone forever.
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    I was hoping for a finish to the 'personal' Bond with Skyfall. I think they've gone to that well so many times and it was with Spectre that I finally realised that they would never stop going to it with Craig's Bond. Every single one is a personal story that feels like it is resolved and then along comes another story that is entwined with Bond. That's understandable with QoS - although not strictly necessary - the ending of CR had enough of a classic Bond feel without having to directly follow it in the next movie. I liked Waltz as Blofeld - and still think he can work - but I didn't like the way he was written. He's always in the shadows, many steps ahead of everyone, a terrifying omnipresence - yet he is so easily toppled by Bond - twice. Yes, this is in line with some earlier Blofeld's YOLT and DAF especially. But that is after such masterful string pulling in FRWL and TB. I think they did a better version of Blofeld with Silva. In Spectre I feel that Craig puts in a great performance. Reminiscent of the height of Connery cool. For the first half especially he really behaves like he doesn't care. (In the best possible way) Which works with the stellar opening, couch drop, Rome car chase but is at odds with the brooding elements of caring about Madeline swan, the past association with Blofeld. It's the most tonally messy of the Craig films (something that plagued Brosnan's era). In summary - I liked the light hearted touches, Craig's performance especially, but after a promising start it meanders toward an unsatisfying conclusion. And if driving off in the Aston Martin to the sound of the James Bond theme is the modern equivalent of ending up on a boat with the leading lady at the closing credits then it doesn't really do much for me. I far preferred Skyfall's ending - that had me amped for the next Bond film - like Batman Begins ending with the Joker card appearing. But ultimately I realise most of this is subjective - but I think it does sum up what didn't work for me on the first viewing of Spectre. However to answer the question I think it will remain about the same in appreciation. Something like QoS has it a little easier in reappraisal because virtually no one loved that film on release. So it can only really go up in estimations. Where as Spectre is divise - perhaps more like Thunderball - (for me Skyfall is like Craig's GF - flawed but captured the public's imagination with a great villain, visuals, strong theme song in the public conscious)
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited June 2016 Posts: 8,400
    That's the weird thing. The entire story of QoS was told in the last scene of CR. If you think about it, there is no reason for QoS to exist. Its a pointless sequel that piggybacks on the success of the first film. Yet somehow SP gets the hate for this, while QoS is lauded. That will never make any sense.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    QoS lauded?! Ha, what are you smoking, if you don't mind me asking?

    I fail to see how the entire story of QoS was told at the end of CR either, or how it's pointless. It contains some of the greatest moments of all time for the Craig era and franchise both, all while advancing everything that was introduced in CR.
  • Posts: 1,631
    QoS is far from a pointless film (the opposite, in fact, since a good portion of the SP retcon refers back to it), but even if such a hypothesis had any truth behind it, the film still runs circles around SP in pretty much every imaginable way.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I think that when Craig is done, Skyfall will be looked at as his best, followed by Casino Royale, Spectre and deservedly so... Quantum Of Solace. Spectre doesn't seem to be that appreciated now, and I can't see it pulling an On Her Majesty's Secret Service. Then again, strange unexplainable things do happen.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    QoS lauded?! Ha, what are you smoking, if you don't mind me asking?

    I fail to see how the entire story of QoS was told at the end of CR either, or how it's pointless. It contains some of the greatest moments of all time for the Craig era and franchise both, all while advancing everything that was introduced in CR.

    'Greatest moments of all time for the....franchise'

    I know @Mendes is round the bend but that's a bit of a strong claim. Would you care to furnish me with the greatest franchise moments that appear in QOS?
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    QoS lauded?! Ha, what are you smoking, if you don't mind me asking?

    I fail to see how the entire story of QoS was told at the end of CR either, or how it's pointless. It contains some of the greatest moments of all time for the Craig era and franchise both, all while advancing everything that was introduced in CR.

    QoS is lauded in fan circles such as these. Then agian, so is FYEO, so I guess there is a bias in the community to love a film simply because it is more grounded and dour.

    Anyway, I agree that QoS has great moments, but individual moments of brilliance do not a good film make. When you dig deeper than the surface level, it becomes obvious that everything that happens in QoS is merely a stretched out retread of the final scene of CR. Bond finds solace through revenge, that's the point. Now, had QoS been Bond on a mission, uncovering this evil organisation in the modern world, that would be great. But it isn't. M is back to not trusting her agent (even after he supposedly learnt his lesson) and Bond is back reckless and gungho, just like the beginning of CR. Instead of "advancing everything that they started with CR" someone essentially just flipped the reset button. They moved the chess pieces back into their starting position.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again; CR set the tone of the Craig era, but QoS set the trajectory. So if you feel like criticising SP for its personal story and hackneyed continuity, then you really should start with QoS. Thats when all this insane, messed up shit started happening.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    QoS is increasingly appreciated by many, myself included. It wasn't quite so at the time of its release, when I can safely say it was seen as a disappointment compared to CR by many.

    I rank CR very highly as a Bond film, but given the chance, I'll watch QoS more readily. It's faster, tighter, beautiful to look at, and features Craig intensity at its finest. Tonally consistent too, from roaring start to satisfying finish.

    RE: SP
    It's the most tonally messy of the Craig films (something that plagued Brosnan's era).
    I agree. Terribly so imho, and especially from around the half way mark onwards.
    However to answer the question I think it will remain about the same in appreciation. Something like QoS has it a little easier in reappraisal because virtually no one loved that film on release. So it can only really go up in estimations. Where as Spectre is divise
    I agree again to an extent. In other markets which looked at it more positively at the outset, I believe SP will stay the same level of appreciation, but in North America where it wasn't so well received, I can see it actually declining in appraisal over time. I don't see a positive reassessment of this film coming any time soon in North America.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 1,631
    bondjames wrote: »
    QoS is increasingly appreciated by many, myself included. It wasn't quite so at the time of its release, when I can safely say it was seen as a disappointment compared to CR by many.

    I rank CR very highly as a Bond film, but given the chance, I'll watch QoS more readily. It's faster, tighter, beautiful to look at, and features Craig intensity at its finest. Tonally consistent too, from roaring start to satisfying finish.

    RE: SP
    It's the most tonally messy of the Craig films (something that plagued Brosnan's era).
    I agree. Terribly so imho, and especially from around the half way mark onwards.
    However to answer the question I think it will remain about the same in appreciation. Something like QoS has it a little easier in reappraisal because virtually no one loved that film on release. So it can only really go up in estimations. Where as Spectre is divise
    I agree again to an extent. In other markets which looked at it more positively at the outset, I believe SP will stay the same level of appreciation, but in North America where it wasn't so well received, I can see it actually declining in appraisal over time. I don't see a positive reassessment of this film coming any time soon in North America.

    I don't see that happening either. If anything, it's going to be, like you said, a negative reappraisal in the US. I actually came out of the theater having felt as though I enjoyed myself watching the film, as did those that I went with. After having seen the film on Blu-ray, it's become pretty obvious that the film is just awful. Pretty much everyone else I know had a similar pattern of reactions to the film as well. Not a scientific poll in any sense, but just from my own personal experience, I haven't run across anyone in real life who's opinion of the film has actually improved over time.

    And to also address QoS, this idea that Bond isn't on an actual mission in the film and is only out for personal revenge is nonsense. Bond prioritizes the mission at every single turn in the film, not showing nearly as much of the recklessness that he's often accused of. The Mitchell and Slate fights were kill-or-be-killed moments. Either Bond was going to be killed (with Mitchell, if Bond didn't pull the trigger when he did, Mitchell would have, with Slate, it was obvious from the jump the loser of that fight was going to die) or he was going to be the one doing the killing. Can't complete the mission if he's dead. It's the other characters in the film that make it all about Bond's personal issues. M doesn't trust him, Mathis is the one that brings Vesper back into the picture in a big way (while helping Bond circumvent MI6's interference so he can continue his assigned mission), and Greene taunts him with jabs about his inability to protect the women in his life, but the only time that Bond really, truly makes things personal is at the end with Yusef, after he's completed the mission of stopping Greene and uncovering the Quantum organization. If he was only in it for his personal revenge, he could have just killed his way through the organization, taking out Greene at the first opportunity and then set off after Guy Haines and the others at the opera, but he takes the time to dig deeper and use Greene to uncover more about Quantum, which was his assignment.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited June 2016 Posts: 8,400
    "QoS is great - Its fast, exciting, loud, looks great, great action, really quick, shortest Bond film, really tight, short means good, super low run time, really fast, zooms by, hyper intense, constant movement, dizzying, frenetic, bright colours, really short film, super tight, fast action, moves like a bullet, zips by, no time to think, total pace, full throttle, shaky cam, crazy quick, tight as hell, intense, fast, exciting, running at you, insane speed."

    Have you all got ADHD or something?
  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    Posts: 1,130
    bondjames wrote: »
    Szonana wrote: »
    What takes this film to an 8.5 is how the prodcuers got themselves trapped in doing a reboot for the next Bond actor or if Craig comes back a direct sequel just like any other movie franchise.

    Just changing 2 details could have saved us from that corner
    1 avoiding Blofeld being Bond's foster brother
    2 avoiding Bond falling in love and leaving the service for Madeline.
    That is a fine observation, and one which I'm sure they must have considered before giving it to us. Why box themselves in like this? It's almost like it was intentional.


    You make a grest point on this maybe their plans are still looking for Spectre part 2 and in acase Craig doesn't comeback well the easiest plan B reboot.
    Others they would have changed the i love you stuff, it practically obligates them to continue the same story having in mind an emergency plan for worst case scenario where Craig doesn't comeback.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    QoS lauded?! Ha, what are you smoking, if you don't mind me asking?

    I fail to see how the entire story of QoS was told at the end of CR either, or how it's pointless. It contains some of the greatest moments of all time for the Craig era and franchise both, all while advancing everything that was introduced in CR.

    QoS is lauded in fan circles such as these. Then agian, so is FYEO, so I guess there is a bias in the community to love a film simply because it is more grounded and dour.

    Anyway, I agree that QoS has great moments, but individual moments of brilliance do not a good film make. When you dig deeper than the surface level, it becomes obvious that everything that happens in QoS is merely a stretched out retread of the final scene of CR. Bond finds solace through revenge, that's the point. Now, had QoS been Bond on a mission, uncovering this evil organisation in the modern world, that would be great. But it isn't. M is back to not trusting her agent (even after he supposedly learnt his lesson) and Bond is back reckless and gungho, just like the beginning of CR. Instead of "advancing everything that they started with CR" someone essentially just flipped the reset button. They moved the chess pieces back into their starting position.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again; CR set the tone of the Craig era, but QoS set the trajectory. So if you feel like criticising SP for its personal story and hackneyed continuity, then you really should start with QoS. Thats when all this insane, messed up shit started happening.

    Bond wasn't seeking revenge in QoS, nor was he rogue. Did we even watch the same movie? Bond is practically the only person in the movie without an affiliation or agenda that seeks to manipulate groups or resources to their own betterment.

    There isn't a single moment in the film where he is acting towards the achievement of his own goal. His loyalties are always with MI6, and above all, stopping Greene, not for what his organization did to Vesper, but because he and his people are dangerous and threaten the world.
    QoS lauded?! Ha, what are you smoking, if you don't mind me asking?

    I fail to see how the entire story of QoS was told at the end of CR either, or how it's pointless. It contains some of the greatest moments of all time for the Craig era and franchise both, all while advancing everything that was introduced in CR.

    'Greatest moments of all time for the....franchise'

    I know @Mendes is round the bend but that's a bit of a strong claim. Would you care to furnish me with the greatest franchise moments that appear in QOS?

    It's a film we haven't seen before. We watch Bond go through a grieving process we actively watch unfold, with slight, nuanced moments in between where we subtly see that he is trying to forget Vesper, but can't (won't name his martini, hides that he stole her photo, etc). We actually see Bond affected by something that cripples him, where as in most Bond films, no time is spent on showing him feeling anything, hence why he became more of a superhero than a man over time, and dull because of it. The Craig era brought a lot of that back and dusted off emotional resonance again to inject it back into the franchise at levels we hadn't seen so high before.

    I find the action spectacular and thrilling, too. The heart-starting opening car chase was fast, noisy and packed punch, the Siena chase with a finale on the ropes was beautifully choreographed and suitably tangled, and the Slate v Bond fight was messy, blood riddled and scrappy, again showing that this Bond was a man who bled when hit, and not an invincible superhero. In older Bond films, you'd wonder if Bond's skin was made out of steel.

    Add to all this the tense and beautiful Tosca sequence, with Bond and Greene's men exchanging glares as they descend across the empty room following 007's party crashing, the cut of the audio as Bond runs for it and fights off Quantum agents in pursuit, all with dizzing imagery and a booming score. The hotel finale that increases in intensity as the flames burn on and on, culminating in Bond and Greene facing off, the latter growing feral like an animal and swinging madly with an axe, bellowing a war cry that shatters the ear drums.

    And of course, the final scene with Bond confronting Yusef. We don't know what Bond said to the man when they were alone, which is quite special. Too often things are spelt out for us in films, but here we never know what Bond has to say to the man that manipulated the woman he loved. The moment is a private one between the men, one that even we as the audience don't deserve to be privy to due to is sensitive and raw nature. The only thing we do know at the end is that Bond has given Yusef over to MI6, which the rookie 007 never would have done, cementing himself as the agent we know and love. The final line from Bond as he walks away proves to M that he was on her side the entire time, cementing that Bond realizes now more than ever how futile and reckless revenge can be when the departed can never return from beyond the grave.

    Add to that the great stuff the film does with Felix, as he is caught in the center of a dirty agency with its own agenda, making him not unlike Bond as he feels alone in his mission, and the beautiful sections with Mathis that continue to develop the great bond he and 007 forged in CR dealing with themes of forgiveness, friendship and duplicity/masks, QoS is packed full of moments that, for me, represent some of the best the franchise has ever delivered.

    The film isn't perfect, but it delivers punchy action, emotion that reverberates with great power, and portrays a vulnerable portrait of Bond we hadn't seen until that point like not many Bond films could.

    Feel free to laugh or prod me with disparaging comments about my love for the film, but when well over half of the movies in the franchise don't even come close to providing the layers QoS does, I can't help but stand up for it.
  • Posts: 533
    I have no idea on whether or not "SPECTRE" will be appreciated in the future. I doubt if anyone really knows. Everyone is basing their assessment on their own feelings about the movie.

    Personally, it's my second favorite Craig movie after "CASINO ROYALE". But I have no idea if my feelings will remain the same in the future.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    DRush76 wrote: »
    I have no idea on whether or not "SPECTRE" will be appreciated in the future. I doubt if anyone really knows. Everyone is basing their assessment on their own feelings about the movie.

    Personally, it's my second favorite Craig movie after "CASINO ROYALE". But I have no idea if my feelings will remain the same in the future.

    Agreed with the first part. We literally have no idea until that time comes, which will be a few years down the road.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I already appreciate Spectre greatly. So yes it will be more appreciated in the future.
  • Posts: 1,680
    Bond was still troubled by Vesper in SP. the interrogation tape brought it up.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Tuck91 wrote: »
    Bond was still troubled by Vesper in SP. the interrogation tape brought it up.

    Not necessarily. Just because Bond stumbled across the video and was momentarily taken aback by it doesn't mean he's still troubled by her. Pretty sure she was left in hindsight as soon as the credits for QoS started rolling.
  • Posts: 1,631
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Tuck91 wrote: »
    Bond was still troubled by Vesper in SP. the interrogation tape brought it up.

    Not necessarily. Just because Bond stumbled across the video and was momentarily taken aback by it doesn't mean he's still troubled by her. Pretty sure she was left in hindsight as soon as the credits for QoS started rolling.

    Agreed. It's only natural to pause for a moment when something painful (or joyful for that matter) from your past unexpectedly crosses paths with you. That's all that moment was.

  • edited June 2016 Posts: 1,817
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    HASEROT wrote: »
    Have a dinner scene and the torture scene.

    Obviously the running time would be getting excessive so bin the limp London finale and have the climax in the crater base.

    I quite liked the finale in the abandoned MI6 building, I wouldn't get rid of that. We had big battle setpieces at the end of QoS and SF anyway. The SP finale was something original and I really enjoyed it. I just wish that M had actually killed C, and I wish that they'd stuck with the London blackout idea from the script instead of just having Bond be captured again. Still a brilliant finale though imo. Loved the creepy Scaramanga's funhouse vibe of the old MI6, the shot of Bond staring down Blofeld's helicopter, etc. Brilliant stuff. And while you're right about the lack of tension with Q and Nine Eyes, I thought a lot of tension came from Bond desperately looking for Madeline and then from their escape. The stakes were more personal and the finale was more sombre and tense than big and bombastic. Which I thought was great and a fitting end to the Craig era which has focused on more personal character driven conflicts.

    The torture scene was really good but it just felt out of place. It's immediately forgotten about, Bond is still able to effortlessly shoot or take down henchmen, he's even able to bring a helicopter down with just his ppk, despite Blofeld saying he'd lose his memory and motor skills and all this. It feels very shoehorned in, even if there weren't the leak to use as reference it'd clear that it wasn't in the original script.

    i was expecting one last fist fight with Hinx in the ruins of MI6... i think he exited the film too early, and i think the only way to fully salvage the ending we got, should've been to have Hinx come back and fight Bond one last time.... imagine - the clock is ticking, Bond has to find Swann and get out - Bond is running through rooms looking for her, when he gets blindsided by Hinx - who is more than willing to fight Bond to the death (as it were).... that i feel was the missing element in that finale that could've turned something i felt was superfluous, into something bombastic and awesome.

    I was expecting a final fight in the ruins as well. Very disappointed that Hinx died so early!!!

    Who said he's dead? I never saw that scene. Just cuz he got pulled off a train doesn't mean he's gone forever.

    His absence from the rest of the film suggests he's dead though. But he could theoretically be alive.
  • Birdleson wrote: »
    In reality, which this isn't, being yanked off of a train at that speed by a chain around one's neck, by the weight of a string of beer kegs, would most certainly mean death. Your neck is the frailest part of the equation.

    Yes indeed. It would've broken his neck.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    Birdleson wrote: »
    In reality, which this isn't, being yanked off of a train at that speed by a chain around one's neck, by the weight of a string of beer kegs, would most certainly mean death. Your neck is the frailest part of the equation.

    Interesting.
  • Birdleson wrote: »
    That isn't simply evident?

    It should be, but the expectations for a henchman death is that it is OTT to an extent. The first time I saw Hinx die it seemed anticlimactic. "That's it?" in a way.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    QoS lauded?! Ha, what are you smoking, if you don't mind me asking?

    I fail to see how the entire story of QoS was told at the end of CR either, or how it's pointless. It contains some of the greatest moments of all time for the Craig era and franchise both, all while advancing everything that was introduced in CR.

    QoS is lauded in fan circles such as these. Then agian, so is FYEO, so I guess there is a bias in the community to love a film simply because it is more grounded and dour.

    Anyway, I agree that QoS has great moments, but individual moments of brilliance do not a good film make. When you dig deeper than the surface level, it becomes obvious that everything that happens in QoS is merely a stretched out retread of the final scene of CR. Bond finds solace through revenge, that's the point. Now, had QoS been Bond on a mission, uncovering this evil organisation in the modern world, that would be great. But it isn't. M is back to not trusting her agent (even after he supposedly learnt his lesson) and Bond is back reckless and gungho, just like the beginning of CR. Instead of "advancing everything that they started with CR" someone essentially just flipped the reset button. They moved the chess pieces back into their starting position.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again; CR set the tone of the Craig era, but QoS set the trajectory. So if you feel like criticising SP for its personal story and hackneyed continuity, then you really should start with QoS. Thats when all this insane, messed up shit started happening.

    Bond wasn't seeking revenge in QoS, nor was he rogue. Did we even watch the same movie? Bond is practically the only person in the movie without an affiliation or agenda that seeks to manipulate groups or resources to their own betterment.

    There isn't a single moment in the film where he is acting towards the achievement of his own goal. His loyalties are always with MI6, and above all, stopping Greene, not for what his organization did to Vesper, but because he and his people are dangerous and threaten the world.
    QoS lauded?! Ha, what are you smoking, if you don't mind me asking?

    I fail to see how the entire story of QoS was told at the end of CR either, or how it's pointless. It contains some of the greatest moments of all time for the Craig era and franchise both, all while advancing everything that was introduced in CR.

    'Greatest moments of all time for the....franchise'

    I know @Mendes is round the bend but that's a bit of a strong claim. Would you care to furnish me with the greatest franchise moments that appear in QOS?

    It's a film we haven't seen before. We watch Bond go through a grieving process we actively watch unfold, with slight, nuanced moments in between where we subtly see that he is trying to forget Vesper, but can't (won't name his martini, hides that he stole her photo, etc). We actually see Bond affected by something that cripples him, where as in most Bond films, no time is spent on showing him feeling anything, hence why he became more of a superhero than a man over time, and dull because of it. The Craig era brought a lot of that back and dusted off emotional resonance again to inject it back into the franchise at levels we hadn't seen so high before.

    I find the action spectacular and thrilling, too. The heart-starting opening car chase was fast, noisy and packed punch, the Siena chase with a finale on the ropes was beautifully choreographed and suitably tangled, and the Slate v Bond fight was messy, blood riddled and scrappy, again showing that this Bond was a man who bled when hit, and not an invincible superhero. In older Bond films, you'd wonder if Bond's skin was made out of steel.

    Add to all this the tense and beautiful Tosca sequence, with Bond and Greene's men exchanging glares as they descend across the empty room following 007's party crashing, the cut of the audio as Bond runs for it and fights off Quantum agents in pursuit, all with dizzing imagery and a booming score. The hotel finale that increases in intensity as the flames burn on and on, culminating in Bond and Greene facing off, the latter growing feral like an animal and swinging madly with an axe, bellowing a war cry that shatters the ear drums.

    And of course, the final scene with Bond confronting Yusef. We don't know what Bond said to the man when they were alone, which is quite special. Too often things are spelt out for us in films, but here we never know what Bond has to say to the man that manipulated the woman he loved. The moment is a private one between the men, one that even we as the audience don't deserve to be privy to due to is sensitive and raw nature. The only thing we do know at the end is that Bond has given Yusef over to MI6, which the rookie 007 never would have done, cementing himself as the agent we know and love. The final line from Bond as he walks away proves to M that he was on her side the entire time, cementing that Bond realizes now more than ever how futile and reckless revenge can be when the departed can never return from beyond the grave.

    Add to that the great stuff the film does with Felix, as he is caught in the center of a dirty agency with its own agenda, making him not unlike Bond as he feels alone in his mission, and the beautiful sections with Mathis that continue to develop the great bond he and 007 forged in CR dealing with themes of forgiveness, friendship and duplicity/masks, QoS is packed full of moments that, for me, represent some of the best the franchise has ever delivered.

    The film isn't perfect, but it delivers punchy action, emotion that reverberates with great power, and portrays a vulnerable portrait of Bond we hadn't seen until that point like not many Bond films could.

    Feel free to laugh or prod me with disparaging comments about my love for the film, but when well over half of the movies in the franchise don't even come close to providing the layers QoS does, I can't help but stand up for it.

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