In time, will SP be more or less appreciated?

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  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Tuck91 wrote: »
    Bond was still troubled by Vesper in SP. the interrogation tape brought it up.

    He was probably more troubled by the fact her interrogation tape was on a vhs cassette when bluray technology already existed before he even met her.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Tuck91 wrote: »
    Bond was still troubled by Vesper in SP. the interrogation tape brought it up.

    He was probably more troubled by the fact her interrogation tape was on a vhs cassette when bluray technology already existed before he even met her.

    Maybe Mr. White liked things shot on Sh*tteo. :))
  • I realised this very soon after seeing the film - one thing that dulls SP when looked at amongst the others is that there's no ally. In the general sense. Excluding Mi6 and Bond girls. There just isn't one there.
  • Posts: 4,325
    HASEROT wrote: »
    Have a dinner scene and the torture scene.

    Obviously the running time would be getting excessive so bin the limp London finale and have the climax in the crater base.

    I quite liked the finale in the abandoned MI6 building, I wouldn't get rid of that. We had big battle setpieces at the end of QoS and SF anyway. The SP finale was something original and I really enjoyed it. I just wish that M had actually killed C, and I wish that they'd stuck with the London blackout idea from the script instead of just having Bond be captured again. Still a brilliant finale though imo. Loved the creepy Scaramanga's funhouse vibe of the old MI6, the shot of Bond staring down Blofeld's helicopter, etc. Brilliant stuff. And while you're right about the lack of tension with Q and Nine Eyes, I thought a lot of tension came from Bond desperately looking for Madeline and then from their escape. The stakes were more personal and the finale was more sombre and tense than big and bombastic. Which I thought was great and a fitting end to the Craig era which has focused on more personal character driven conflicts.

    The torture scene was really good but it just felt out of place. It's immediately forgotten about, Bond is still able to effortlessly shoot or take down henchmen, he's even able to bring a helicopter down with just his ppk, despite Blofeld saying he'd lose his memory and motor skills and all this. It feels very shoehorned in, even if there weren't the leak to use as reference it'd clear that it wasn't in the original script.

    i was expecting one last fist fight with Hinx in the ruins of MI6... i think he exited the film too early, and i think the only way to fully salvage the ending we got, should've been to have Hinx come back and fight Bond one last time.... imagine - the clock is ticking, Bond has to find Swann and get out - Bond is running through rooms looking for her, when he gets blindsided by Hinx - who is more than willing to fight Bond to the death (as it were).... that i feel was the missing element in that finale that could've turned something i felt was superfluous, into something bombastic and awesome.

    Too much like Goldfinger with Oddjob at Fort Knox.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 12,837
    My problem with QoS is that it tries to do all the stuff that @Brady mentioned but because of the short runtime there's a lack of focus and it doesn't really commit and do any of it very well. The CIA subplot for example gets what, a whole two or three scenes devoted to it?

    The cinematography and the score are great and all the actors do a decent job. Craig is great and the script has some funny moments. There are also some nice character moments, but they don't last long before they're interrupted by yet another poorly edited chase scene. Quantum could have been salavagable if it was longer but as it is, I think that Forster definitely should have cut one of the subplots, because as it stands, that film is a jumbled mess. Add onto that little things that annoy me, like Mathis being killed off, the weird GF and TSWLM homages in a film that actively avoids the Bond tropes, the terrible gunbarrel (I can sort of accept it being at the end in this one, cause unlike SF there's a vague narrative reason for it), the underuse of all the locations and the fact that it feels small in scale despite what was at the time the biggest budget of the series (what happened to putting the money on screen? Least in Spectre I could see where the money went), and the awful theme song (there's no melody, it's a Bond song and there's not even a distinguishable melody) and title sequence, the pretentious elements theme of the shoehorned in badly edited action sequences, the lack of stakes felt in the plot, the forgettable villain and the joke of a henchman, the HEAD OF MI6 FOLLOWING BOND AROUND THE WORLD (so dumb, doesn't she have a multitude of other stuff to deal with back in London? at least in TWINE and SF there was a narrative reason for M's involvement), plus I despise the title (worst of the series for me) and even the thematic reasoning for it falls flat because they pussied out and named the organisation Quantum in case people wouldn't understand. I don't hate it as much as I used to but I still see it as a huge disappointment after CR and I don't think it's even comparable to SF and SP in terms of quality. It'll always be the black sheep of the Craig era for me.
  • Posts: 1,092
    Birdleson wrote: »
    That isn't simply evident?

    It should be, but the expectations for a henchman death is that it is OTT to an extent. The first time I saw Hinx die it seemed anticlimactic. "That's it?" in a way.

    But this is a film. A Bond film. Do people really think it's supposed to be realistic and conform to the rules of psychics?
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    I think they got the Hinx exit right - theoretically he's dead but not definitively. Reminds me of Onatopp's death in GE (which I found more anti-climatic than Hinx's) and it means they can bring him back if they want to.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    In time, Spectre will be more appreciated. Sure, some of the facts didn't really sit well with most of the fans, but give it some time... People will warm up to it. History repeats itself. Remember Quantum of Solace?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    @thelivingroyale, do you really feel that QoS compares poorly to SP on the location front? Sure, they may have visited more locations in SP, but I feel strongly that QoS did a much better job of showcasing such locations it visited in a far more compelling fashion.

    The colours are vibrant & everything feels dynamic and real. One can almost feel the heat and smell the sweat during that cab ride with Mathis in Bolivia (Panama used as stand-in). In that respect, I felt QoS was a distinct case of less is more, and far more Bondian old-school.

    SP's location filming in contrast 'felt' like something produced on a laptop, and not just because of Hoyte's filter - there was a lack of clarity in some locations - it felt tenuous rather than genuine to me.

    I agree with you on M's jet setting ways though. That was almost as pathetic as her excursions in TWINE at Elektra's behest or her travelling around unprotected in a DB5 to Scotland.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Tuck91 wrote: »
    Bond was still troubled by Vesper in SP. the interrogation tape brought it up.

    He was probably more troubled by the fact her interrogation tape was on a vhs cassette when bluray technology already existed before he even met her.

    That never truly bothered me. It's still a bit of superb acting from Craig.
  • Posts: 4,325
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Tuck91 wrote: »
    Bond was still troubled by Vesper in SP. the interrogation tape brought it up.

    He was probably more troubled by the fact her interrogation tape was on a vhs cassette when bluray technology already existed before he even met her.

    Yes, especially given that Sony are behind Blu Ray technology.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    Blofeld must have cut his budget. They were already having a falling out.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    "Anticlimactic" is a good way to describe Hinx's death; it's why I keep falling back on a 'Jaws 2.0,' in hopes of having him return, as I really didn't like that that was his death (and getting thrown off a train? You couldn't do something that's been done a few times in the past and spice it up a little by taking him out in a different way?)
  • Posts: 1,092
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    "Anticlimactic" is a good way to describe Hinx's death; it's why I keep falling back on a 'Jaws 2.0,' in hopes of having him return, as I really didn't like that that was his death (and getting thrown off a train? You couldn't do something that's been done a few times in the past and spice it up a little by taking him out in a different way?)

    Yeah, but in a film where a lot of people complain about the overblown, bombastic nature of much of it, the simplicity of him being yanked off the train like that was pretty damn satisfying, refreshing even. I laughed my ass off. I smile just thinking about it, actually. It was a damn great fight. And I've said for years Craig needed a heavy kind of henchman for his era to feel complete.

    Now all he needs is a big ending battle with dozens of agents storming the castle in a huge finale, a la MR, TB, or FYEO. :D
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I agree with a lot of that (particularly about Craig needing a big, heavy henchman), I was only saying that I wasn't terribly crazy about how he exits the film.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I didn't have a problem with the way he died, but I agree with others who've suggested the finale could have been much better if he'd been there for one last fight with Bond, rather than the somewhat sterile death of the useless 'C', who it would have been better to see being walked off in cuffs, with a satisfied smirk from M.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    I don't understand how Hinx's death was anti-climactic, I couldn't have seen any other way to send him off. The fight in the train was just perfect and one of the greater moments in the film.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited June 2016 Posts: 40,976
    @ClarkDevlin, aside from Grant, I can't think of a henchman Bond fights in a train that doesn't result in him throwing the henchman out to some degree. At this point, it's expected, so it would've been nice if they threw a curveball and ended it with Bond dispatching him in a different manner entirely.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I don't understand how Hinx's death was anti-climactic, I couldn't have seen any other way to send him off. The fight in the train was just perfect and one of the greater moments in the film.

    Maybe as Bond was wrapping the chain around Hinx's neck he should have said. "You *****, I'm gonna kill you! I'm gonna ******' cook you, and I'm gonna ******* eat you!" :))
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited June 2016 Posts: 15,423
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @ClarkDevlin, aside from Grant, I can't think of a henchman Bond fights in a train that doesn't result in him throwing the henchman out to some degree. At this point, it's expected, so it would've been nice if they threw a curveball and ended it with Bond dispatching him in a different manner entirely.
    It's slightly different than in the script, and Hinx doesn't go to say 'Shit' before he's sucked out of the train. My complaint was that it happened too quickly and wasn't adapted well from the script, which I imagined how it would've been played out in motion. But, still... It was rather good and definitely a lot better than most of the fights with Jaws, Oddjob, that biathlete called Erich Kriegler, who all handled Bond like he was some pansy. This fight had Bond throwing punches appropriately fighting back with aggression as he locked horns with someone he knew he couldn't beat in a fair fight, but he did it, anyway. That's what I love about Craig's Bond.
    Murdock wrote: »
    I don't understand how Hinx's death was anti-climactic, I couldn't have seen any other way to send him off. The fight in the train was just perfect and one of the greater moments in the film.

    Maybe as Bond was wrapping the chain around Hinx's neck he should have said. "You *****, I'm gonna kill you! I'm gonna ******' cook you, and I'm gonna ******* eat you!" :))
    Do you smell what The Hinx is cookin'?! ;)
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    edited June 2016 Posts: 2,722
    bondjames wrote: »
    I didn't have a problem with the way he died, but I agree with others who've suggested the finale could have been much better if he'd been there for one last fight with Bond, rather than the somewhat sterile death of the useless 'C', who it would have been better to see being walked off in cuffs, with a satisfied smirk from M.

    'C' is one of the worst elements of Spectre. Andrew Scott is a capable actor (although I couldn't stand his performance as moriarty in Sherlock - clearly a decision to play him like an OTT psychopath but what a poor decision) but in spectre I think his role is poor writing on the part of scriptwriters. The total surveillance method of the villain's plan is too similar to Silva's in SF. Maybe it's the world we live in but 'enemy of the state' style mass control of technology just seems like an obvious fall back for a world domination plot these days. But also C should have been friendlier toward M and Bond. It would have been better if he had played it with a Shakespearan calculation. Playing to their trust and vanities rather than the tried and true 'the double-0 section is obsolete' rant. One thing I did enjoy about Ralph fiennes in SF is that you don't quite know his angle until he saves M in the courthouse scene - I was waiting for the traitor to emerge and was pleasantly surprised when he didn't. Quite the opposite with C - had traitor written all over from literally his first exchange. And this part takes up much of the running time of the film (another reason I struggle with spectre in repeat viewings - simply doesn't need to be that long considering the plot)
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    @ClarkDevlin, how does it vary in the script? And again, agreed: all I'm saying is I found his death/exit to be anticlimactic, I really enjoy the fight myself. That sort of brutality was sorely missed in SF.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited June 2016 Posts: 15,423
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @ClarkDevlin, how does it vary in the script? And again, agreed: all I'm saying is I found his death/exit to be anticlimactic, I really enjoy the fight myself. That sort of brutality was sorely missed in SF.
    SF... I better not to be reminded of it, to be honest. :)) As for the other thing, I'll send it over to your inbox. ;)
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    'C' is one of the worst elements of Spectre... And this part takes up much of the running time of the film (another reason I struggle with spectre in repeat viewings - simply doesn't need to be that long considering the plot)
    Yes, the whole C subplot drags on for way too long. Ultimately, I think it's there to give Ralph Fiennes something to do. Which is why I'd prefer the next M to not be a big name actor. Let's go back to the basics, when M didn't get too much screen time.
  • edited June 2016 Posts: 12,837
    One thing I did enjoy about Ralph fiennes in SF is that you don't quite know his angle until he saves M in the courthouse scene - I was waiting for the traitor to emerge and was pleasantly surprised when he didn't.

    Funnily enough originally in the script it was M who acted as Blofeld's man inside MI6. But Fiennes didn't like the idea iirc, so then they changed it to Tanner (he feared becoming obselete/irrelevant with all the changes, so he sold out to Spectre, and eventually ended up shooting himself from guilt after being confronted by Bond). Then for whatever reason that was changed, Tanner was reduced to his usual exposition role, and they came up with C.

    Also Andrew Scott wasn't meant to play him. They wanted Chiwetel Efijor (who was at first being looked at for Blofeld back when he was an African warlord in one of Logan's drafts), but Mendes took a liking to Scott and he was cheaper so they went for him.

    This is all from the sony leaks, which I found very interesting because it gives us a glimpse into how different the film could have been.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I'm glad they didn't go with Ejiofor, because he would've been so wasted in such a poor role. I'd love to see him play the main villain in a future movie.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Ejiofor was probably the choice for the African warlord version of Blofeld that was planned with Logan's script.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Chiwetel reminds me of Yaphet Kotto in a lot of ways, all of them good.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Agreed!
  • Posts: 1,631
    My problem with QoS is that it tries to do all the stuff that @Brady mentioned but because of the short runtime there's a lack of focus and it doesn't really commit and do any of it very well. The CIA subplot for example gets what, a whole two or three scenes devoted to it?

    The CIA subplot didn't need any more scenes devoted to it. It's handled remarkably well for a Bond subplot, certainly much better than any of the subplots found in the latest Bond film.

    There are only a small handful of scenes devoted directly to Beam and Felix and their maneuverings, but there are other scenes that are informed by those scenes that further develop that subplot out considerably. The exchange between M and her superior when he demands Bond be reigned in shows what Bond and M are up against in terms of the CIA corruption in the region, as her own bosses have decided to side with the CIA out of necessity, even though it's clearly the wrong thing to do given the information that's been uncovered in the film. M's phone inquiry with the CIA regarding Greene is another, displaying the corruption of Gregory Beam and showing that Bond will have to tread water carefully moving forward as that short conversation shows M that Bond (and her) interests will be in direct opposition with those of the CIA as they continue to move forward in their pursuit of Greene.

    Through all of that we see the CIA's actions towards Bond continuously ramp up until they put a capture or kill order out on him and then actively try to kill him at the bar, until Felix's conscience wins out and he allows Bond to escape at the last moment.

    For my money, it's a very well executed subplot. It's subtle, but it's there throughout the film and informs quite a bit of the proceedings that don't directly involve Beam and Felix. It's certainly a better subplot than all of the nonsense with C in Spectre.
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