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The Next American President Thread (2016)

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  • daltondalton
    Posts: 1,631
    Shardlake wrote: »
    He just plays ignorant and thick for the crowd is that what you are saying?

    Of course "I have all the best words" not my phrase his.

    I suppose to relate to his base he needs to speak like this is that it?

    What about that time he pretended to be his own publicist when it was plain as day it was him, you've had one President with alzheimers do you want another one?

    Like I say if he is the best actor in the world and is actually this incisive, witty extremely intelligent business man then I think he might have become a little to immersed in this character he's supposedly playing.

    Maybe the presumptive nominee isn't racist. He just plays one on TV. ;)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Shardlake wrote: »
    He just plays ignorant and thick for the crowd is that what you are saying?

    Of course "I have all the best words" not my phrase his.

    I suppose to relate to his base he needs to speak like this is that it?

    What about that time he pretended to be his own publicist when it was plain as day it was him, you've had one President with alzheimers do you want another one?

    Like I say if he is the best actor in the world and is actually this incisive, witty extremely intelligent business man then I think he might have become a little to immersed in this character he's supposedly playing.
    I agree with all of this. That is Trump for you. I have never denied that. He's overselling and he's marketing a persona to the American electorate. That's his shtick. That's the Art of the Deal writ large.

    Hidden behind all that though, are some interesting points about the nation, its problems, and that is what I want to have discussed. Everyone is focusing on the sideshow, which is unfortunate because if he loses this election, it's back to square one and nothing will change.
  • daltondalton
    Posts: 1,631
    In my view, if a candidate wants to bring up issues that challenge the status quo, and actually wants to have them discussed in a rational manner, then he needs to conduct himself according to the office that he seeks to hold. The most important quality in someone running for president is whether or not he's fit for office, and everything else, regardless of how important, is secondary to whether or not the candidate is fit for office.

    Right now, with Donald, most can't get past that first criteria, because he is not fit to be POTUS.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    dalton wrote: »
    In my view, if a candidate wants to bring up issues that challenge the status quo, and actually wants to have them discussed in a rational manner, then he needs to conduct himself according to the office that he seeks to hold. The most important quality in someone running for president is whether or not he's fit for office, and everything else, regardless of how important, is secondary to whether or not the candidate is fit for office.

    Right now, with Donald, most can't get past that first criteria, because he is not fit to be POTUS.
    This I most certainly agree with. I can understand why he did what he did during the primaries - it was because he couldn't stand toe to toe with the other candidates on the facts/knowledge, so he created a marketing distraction via a larger than life persona. I wasn't upset by this because I thought the Republican field was useless (yes, including Kasich and Bush).

    I firmly believe that this will not work in the general election. He will have to have a command of the facts and demonstrate this conclusively going forward, or he will be trounced. He will have to articulate a clear vision for the country at the convention. I have said this before and I stand by it.

    The email scandal and this racist nonsense are just sideshows. The issues facing the nation are too important to waste time on this.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I wouldn't trust a child to run a steel mill. I wouldn't trust Trump to be President.
  • daltondalton
    Posts: 1,631
    bondjames wrote: »

    I firmly believe that this will not work in the general election. He will have to have a command of the facts and demonstrate this conclusively going forward, or he will be trounced. He will have to articulate a clear vision for the country at the convention. I have said this before and I stand by it.

    The email scandal and this racist nonsense are just sideshows. The issues facing the nation are too important to waste time on this.

    It's already working, though. He's running neck and neck with Clinton in many of the swing states that the election will come down to.

    I don't believe the racist thing to be nonsense because, whether or not he actually is a racist, that's what he's choosing to portray himself as in the media. So, on some level, he's comfortable with that depiction, otherwise he'd try to distance himself from it.

    I did believe that the email thing was a sideshow until the FBI Director made a fool out of himself and put on display the fact that there are two different justice systems: one for us average Joes and one for people like the Clintons. Not that we didn't already know it, but to actually hear people in such high ranking offices like the Director of the FBI and the Attorney General all but admit it publicly was somewhat shocking.
  • BeatlesSansEarmuffsBeatlesSansEarmuffs
    Posts: 3,566
    dalton wrote: »

    Maybe the presumptive nominee isn't racist. He just plays one on TV. ;)

    Thanks for using this line so I wouldn't have to. :))
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    dalton wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    I firmly believe that this will not work in the general election. He will have to have a command of the facts and demonstrate this conclusively going forward, or he will be trounced. He will have to articulate a clear vision for the country at the convention. I have said this before and I stand by it.

    The email scandal and this racist nonsense are just sideshows. The issues facing the nation are too important to waste time on this.

    It's already working, though. He's running neck and neck with Clinton in many of the swing states that the election will come down to.

    I don't believe the racist thing to be nonsense because, whether or not he actually is a racist, that's what he's choosing to portray himself as in the media. So, on some level, he's comfortable with that depiction, otherwise he'd try to distance himself from it.

    I did believe that the email thing was a sideshow until the FBI Director made a fool out of himself and put on display the fact that there are two different justice systems: one for us average Joes and one for people like the Clintons. Not that we didn't already know it, but to actually hear people in such high ranking offices like the Director of the FBI and the Attorney General all but admit it publicly was somewhat shocking.
    You are not wrong on either Trump's race baiting or on Hillary's stupidity (which could have had more serious consequences for national security than we may know).

    However, they are both in the past. The way the candidates conduct themselves and present their points of view in the next four months are what will count. This is the home stretch in a marathon campaign. It is only now that really matters in my view.

    Regarding him running neck and neck with Hillary in swing states, that's because he has articulated points that are resonating in those states. She will have to take note and have an answer to this. I've said all along that she is a weak candidate, and the wrong person for them to have fielded this year, but we are where we are. She'll have to step up with Tim Kaine (likely VP pick).
  • FLeiterFLeiter
    Posts: 315
    Sadly @jamesbond you have proven to all here that your credibility is zero. Sad.

    Donald trump. 1991.

    “I have black guys counting my money. … I hate it,”

    “The only guys I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes all day.”

    “‘Laziness is a trait in blacks. It really is, I believe that.”
  • BeatlesSansEarmuffsBeatlesSansEarmuffs
    Posts: 3,566
    bondjames wrote: »
    He is not racist, from my knowledge of his career over the years. Far from it.

    So that's why he was sued long ago for not renting to black folks, eh? Because he's the furthest thing POSSIBLE from being a racist. And the whole Birther thing (which I note you haven't yet addressed) was just to build up his cred with the racists 7 years ago in preparation for this presidential run, is that it?

    If you want to defend his points re: trade with China, immigration, etc., by all means do so. But don't try to pretend that on the issue of racism, this sow's ear is any sort of a silk purse because it plainly isn't.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    BeatlesSansEarmuffs wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    He is not racist, from my knowledge of his career over the years. Far from it.

    So that's why he was sued long ago for not renting to black folks, eh? Because he's the furthest thing POSSIBLE from being a racist. And the whole Birther thing (which I note you haven't yet addressed) was just to build up his cred with the racists 7 years ago in preparation for this presidential run, is that it?

    If you want to defend his points re: trade with China, immigration, etc., by all means do so. But don't try to pretend that on the issue of racism, this sow's ear is any sort of a silk purse because it plainly isn't.
    Re: The Birther thing - yes, I believe he was building cred by jumping on an issue that he could sell his brand to. Not what I would have done, but that's Trump's m.o. if he had a plan to eventually make a run. He was pandering because he saw an opening on an issue that was already out there.

    RE: Him being sued for not renting to black folks - I can't comment because I don't know the facts on that. Was it because they were black or because they were poor and couldn't pay? What was the outcome and what were the findings (not the allegations)?
  • BeatlesSansEarmuffsBeatlesSansEarmuffs
    Posts: 3,566
    Research. I recommend it before going online & making claims about your knowledge of ...someone's career... or lots of other things. Try Googling "Donald Trump renting to blacks" & see what you get. (The topic is also covered from Trump's own unique perspective in "The Art of the Deal.")

    Basically, in the early-70s, the feds brought a Federal Case against Trump & his father for a company-wide systematic policy against renting to blacks based solely on race, not on ability to pay. Roy Cohn was involved in the negotiations on Trump's side & there's a name you might want to research as well. (Google is your friend, use it.) What was the outcome? A settlement, of course. Not that Trump will ever admit to any wrongdoing, but again, "from my knowledge of his career over the years" that's jusr par for the course.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    BeatlesSansEarmuffs wrote: »
    Research. I recommend it before going online & making claims about your knowledge of ...someone's career... or lots of other things. Try Googling "Donald Trump renting to blacks" & see what you get. (The topic is also covered from Trump's own unique perspective in "The Art of the Deal.")

    Basically, in the early-70s, the feds brought a Federal Case against Trump & his father for a company-wide systematic policy against renting to blacks based solely on race, not on ability to pay. Roy Cohn was involved in the negotiations on Trump's side & there's a name you might want to research as well. (Google is your friend, use it.) What was the outcome? A settlement, of course. Not that Trump will ever admit to any wrongdoing, but again, "from my knowledge of his career over the years" that's jusr par for the course.
    I have read the Art of the Deal many years back, so you'll forgive my memory on this matter. I do recall it now based on your detailed comments here. I'll take a look at the case. Thanks for your comments on Google - I obviously wasn't aware of it or how to use it.

    At the end of the day if people want to believe he's a racist, then that's fine. He will be confronted on that on the biggest stage and he will have to answer for it shortly, if the media do their research.

    You all know who you're voting for then? That's fine with me.

    EDIT: I just brushed up on my obviously previously inept google searching techniques and the relevant few paragraphs in my copy of the Art of the Deal. My take is there was discrimination. Trump claims he didn't want to rent to welfare recipients irrespective of colour or race, but the fact that there was finally a settlement suggests that there was discrimination against African Americans. The facts show that The Trump Company was in fact renting to African Americans, but that there was an attempt to have a quota on the number and % in the buildings, with rental employees saying they were told to prioritize renting to "Jews and Executives". It also appears that this was something Trump Senior had advocated.

    Donald fought the case and hired Roy Cohn, a defense attorney who two decades earlier had been a top aide to Sen. Joseph McCarthy during his infamous effort to root out communists in government. Trump's reason for hiring Cohn was because he was a fighter - Cohn countersued the government for $100m for false accusations and the case was eventually settled.
  • FLeiterFLeiter
    Posts: 315
    BeatlesSansEarmuffs wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    He is not racist, from my knowledge of his career over the years. Far from it.

    So that's why he was sued long ago for not renting to black folks, eh? Because he's the furthest thing POSSIBLE from being a racist. And the whole Birther thing (which I note you haven't yet addressed) was just to build up his cred with the racists 7 years ago in preparation for this presidential run, is that it?

    If you want to defend his points re: trade with China, immigration, etc., by all means do so. But don't try to pretend that on the issue of racism, this sow's ear is any sort of a silk purse because it plainly isn't.

    You're right, in 1973 Trump was charged by the U.S. Dept. of Justice of discrimination in making housing available to minorities to rent and buy. Trump rental agents testified they they would add an additional sheet of paper marked with a huge 'C;' for 'colored people' Here are just a few of the cases presented:

    Alfred Hoyt, a black man, was told there were no two-bedroom apartments at Trump’s Westminster apartment complex in Brooklyn. His white wife, Sheila, was offered a two-bedroom apartment the very next day. They were admitted to the building after filing a complaint with the New York City Human Rights Commission.

    Henrietta Davis, a black woman, tried to rent an apartment at the Fontainebleau in Brooklyn in 1972. She said she was told by the super that he had no authority to accept rental applications. And yet when Muriel Salzman, a white Urban League tester, went to the Fontainebleau directly after Davis, she was told that two apartments were free and she could rent either of them.

    Godfrey Jacobs—a black tester for the Urban League—was told there were no vacancies at the Beachaven Apartments in Sheepshead Bay. Yet George Sim Johnston, a white tester, was offered a rental at that building on the very same day.

    Beverly Best, a black woman, tried to rent at the Beachaven complex in December of 1972. She says she was told by phone that an apartment was available but when she showed up in person the next day to fill out an application, she was told there were no vacancies. She was only admitted to the building after she filed a complaint with the New York City Human Rights Commission.

    In typical Trump fashion he sued the federal government and delayed the case for two years. In 1975. Trump quietly settled the case and agreed to send a list of ALL available units first to minority organizations.

    @bondjames will not respond to facts. Oh those lSE brainiacs.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    FLeiter wrote: »
    @bondjames will not respond to facts. Oh those lSE brainiacs.
    Enough with the insults. Read my post above.
  • BeatlesSansEarmuffsBeatlesSansEarmuffs
    Posts: 3,566
    I will agree that insults are not helpful, but @bondjames please understand: you are whitewashing some very sordid practices and personalities by the wording you choose...and then you cry out that we misunderstand your point. Roy Cohn was one of the most detestable people active in public life during the 20th Century, and your description seems designed to negate that reality. Answer us these question plainly, please -- Roy Cohn: Ratbastard. True or False? And a follow-up -- Donald Trump's longtime "friendship" with Roy Cohn: indicative of the types of people he'd choose to serve him in the White House. True or False?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Yes, Cohn is a complete a$$h@le for his involvement in a most vile period in American History. Trump brought him in because he was specifically that. I didn't know he was a long time friend of his since. Which businessman doesn't want a shark lawyer on his side though?
    BeatlesSansEarmuffs wrote: »
    I will agree that insults are not helpful, but @bondjames please understand: you are whitewashing some very sordid practices and personalities by the wording you choose...and then you cry out that we misunderstand your point.
    I don't cry out. You're welcome to think what you want of me. I did not equate or draw any connection between intelligence/education and racism though, and wanted to clarify that - a member here misunderstood my statement.

    Keep in mind that Trump isn't the only one to have questionable business practices. Any one in the position of these two candidates has dirt under their nails. That's just a fact of life. I've never said the man was a saint. I just don't get as excited as some here about either of their failings.

    I'm interested in how the candidates portray themselves in the next four months and how they present their take on the various issues and their vision for the country. Ultimately, the one who does the best job of that will win this election. That would be a fair outcome to me. I'm not telling anyone how to vote and I'm not criticizing anyone for their vote. That is democracy.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    BeatlesSansEarmuffs wrote: »
    Trump obviously IS a racist -- his support of the Birther movement years ago proved that point before he ever starting running for president. His racist/sexist/etc. statements during the current campaigns may be primarily designed to generate support among the extreme right wing here in the USA -- but they also fall largely in line with his preexisting opinions, otherwise he wouldn't be voicing them. You do yourself no favors, @bondjames, when you try to argue otherwise. You claim you don't support Trump, but over and over you try to excuse him. Are we supposed to believe that most of what you say is just you being factious (as per your PS to @FLeiter above?)

    Yes, @BeatlesSansEarmuffs. So basically in a nutshell: Trump condones awful, despicable things. If in his tiny tiny cold heart he really is not a racist, not bigoted, but chooses to "act" that way to garner publicity and votes from low lifes, then he is okay? Or more clearly and accurately, he is still totally at fault, responsible for his words and deeds; a coward, and worse than a publicity hound. :O) No longer funny or amusing. Completely and utterly unfit to be president of any country, including - dare I say it - Freedonia. ;)

    Yes, so we will run in circles on this thread. I could use a laugh when it comes to politics at this point. Let's just shake the dust off - we all know who we are voting for at this point and trying to convince others will just drive us crackers. So here ya go, grab a cigar or a bicycle pump and join me with Groucho and the boys (note: this film is from 1933)

  • GerardGerard
    edited July 2016 Posts: 5,994
    About Donald : If it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, walks like a duck, chances are... It's not a swan.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Good timing,@Gerard, as my clip is from "Duck Soup." *honk! honk!* ;)
  • BeatlesSansEarmuffsBeatlesSansEarmuffs
    Posts: 3,566
    Say the secret word and you'll win $100. (The secret word for tonight is "disingenuous.")
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    The thing people need to understand is Trump has never sold himself as being less than flawed. From what I can see, what he is selling people is Strength, and throughout the campaign he appears to be consistent. When I went back and read that housing suit in the 1970's in the Art of the Deal, my immediate thought was that this issue was just playing into his brand again. He hired an attack dog to take it back to the government and in the end he got a settlement when there is evidence The Trump Company was in fact discriminating under the Fair Housing Act. He is also selling Change, and nearly everything he has said since he became a candidate is in tune with that also. So to repeat, 'Strength' & 'Change' are his main brand attributes, along with Plain Spoken Unfiltered Commentary.

    From what I can see, Hillary is selling Knowledge, Experience, a Steady Hand and Consistency. She was also selling 'Integrity', but the email scandal revelations may have hurt her a few weeks ago, and put a dent in that. It also played into Donald's branding of her as 'crooked'.

    The current poll tightening is on account of the fact that it was taken during and just after the Comey findings and the Lynch/Clinton airport meet. Trump may possibly take a small lead post-Repub Convention and then Clinton should level or go ahead post-Dem Convention. All of this is as I expect and how it's always played out. It's just one big drawn out circus for ratings until the last weeks of the campaigns.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    @bondjames I can follow your Machiavellian analysis of the field, which I think is a good thing to do to understand everything that's going on. But even Machiavelli noted that, in the end, people also should use their concience and morale to make the final decisions. I think that Trump has been proven, beyond reasonable doubt, a racist. And in beeing a racist he's violating the constitution of America. On the basis of that allone the man should be stopped, however valid any other argument he pushes foreward is.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    @CommanderRoss, he is an opportunist, and is turning a blind eye towards racist inclinations in the populace in pursuit of power. That's a charge that can be leveled at him. He has pandered to that element of the population. That too can be leveled at him.

    I think he is guilty of discriminating under the Fair Housing Act with respect to African Americans who can rent in his New York properties, although the case was settled. He claims it had to do with income and welfare recipients, but I don't agree. I think he wanted to limit the number of African Americans in his properties, particularly those of not well off means.

    If he is a racist, there is no way he will be elected president of the United States. That case will be prosecuted against him vigorously by his opponents, and they will win it.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Breaking: 3 policemen shot dead in Baton Rouge.
  • BeatlesSansEarmuffsBeatlesSansEarmuffs
    Posts: 3,566
    Sad news (even though it's not exactly "news" -- more like "the same sad story over & over again.") Still, I'm not sure what exactly the relevance is for this particular topic thread. Fuel for one side or the other? Can we please stop turning tragedy into grist for our particular mills, just for one day? Wake me up when the shooting starts in Cleveland....
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    @bondjames I can follow your Machiavellian analysis of the field, which I think is a good thing to do to understand everything that's going on. But even Machiavelli noted that, in the end, people also should use their concience and morale to make the final decisions. I think that Trump has been proven, beyond reasonable doubt, a racist. And in beeing a racist he's violating the constitution of America. On the basis of that allone the man should be stopped, however valid any other argument he pushes foreward is.

    Have you read my previous post @CommanderRoss? With all the quotes from Mr Trump...and the context I wrote?



    Regarding the shootings today in Baton Rouge -another 3 dead policemen-......I must say, my mind can't cope with all the shit that June and July of 2016 gave us. Three terrorist attacks in France in the last two years, a terrorist attack in Belgium, A huge terrorist attack in Turkey. A terrorist attack in the USA. Race-based violence in the USA that reminds me of the 1960's. A failed Coup d'Etat in Turkey. A, for me at least, shocking Brexit vote. Donald Trump who adds more fire to the race debate.

    I mean, most people know I am quite a staunch poster of politics in here. But even I can't cope up anymore. I have arrived at a point where my mind is so saturated that I prever to masturbate, watch a movie or go to the swimming pool (:|
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    I have arrived at a point where my mind is so saturated that I prever to masturbate, watch a movie or go to the swimming pool (:|
    Watch a movie on your laptop in the tub so you can do all three!

    Seriously though, it's getting nuts out there...

    :-O
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    There is a queasy feel of a loss of control. A loss of certainty. I read a book a few years back by Nassim Nicholas Taleb called Black Swan. In it he postulates that people are ill equipped to deal with events that occur on exponential scales, and we happen to be seeing more and more of them at this time.

    Any one of these recent events could have magnified global spill over & long term consequences. Scary times indeed.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    bondjames wrote: »
    There is a queasy feel of a loss of control. A loss of certainty.
    I was involved in an accident once where the company van I was driving was absolutely totaled. The impact was so great that the floor pedals were thrust up near where I was sitting. I got out of the van & the tractor trailer driver looked at me and said "Damn- I thought I was gonna be lookin' at a DEAD guy!" My first thought was "Fuck. I'm gonna get home so late tonight."
    [-(
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