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Definitely fair points you bring up in your analysis. A few notes on action scenes between the two:
- MR PTS is one of my 5 favorite scenes of the entire series. Yes, even with the flapping, as I prefer some comedy in my action scenes even though others think it's stupid. SP actually did this quite well in the Rome chase as I loved the bit with the old fiat driver
- Love the Bondola in all of its absurdity. The scene is played for laughs and works for me. I totally understand how most think its the pits, but I love the idea of speed boat gondola and the hover conversion just ups the absurdity to 11.
- I really liked aspects of the snow Car/Plane chase, but something about how it was shot made me feel like I was not sucked into the action. The idea of the plane losing its wings and sledding down the mountain was great, but something as a whole took me out of the film here at a point.
- The space laser battle is a great technical feat and while it doesn't hold a candle to Star Wars, most modern movies don't either. Star Wars was one of a kind.
-Adore the Cable Car sequence. There are parts that are clunky, but it somehow doesn't take me out of the movie, I can't explain it. Love Richard Graydon hanging from the car with no support. Love Richard Kiel's pleased look on his face as he is catching up to them. And the Jaws/Dolly love scene caps it off great for me (again I admit I am in a tremendous minority here!)
- SP is a tale of two halves regarding the action sequences. PTS is tremendous, a top 5 for me. The Rome car chase is brilliant. However, it starts to falter in Austria. Again parts there are brilliant, but there's something about it. The end scenes at Mi6 were a bit mundane for me during the first few viewings though they are starting to grow. It isn't until Bond chases down the helicopter where I really get back on the edge of my seat with the Bond theme playing to the max.
Overall its not a huge win, but MR has a clear advantage for me.
And a few takes on Suspense:
- The globes entering the earth's atmosphere was the most tense moment of either film for me. The Moore era really hits waiting to the last possible moment to avoid disaster. The sparks flying, switching to manual, it all really works for me.
- SP gets huge points off for the mishandling of Blofeld in my opinion. They had the opportunity to reintroduce the most infamous villain of Bond's past and they did it in one of the most generic ways I can think of.
Title track: MR
Titles: MR
Main villain: MR
Main Bond Girl: MR
Henchman: MR
Plot: MR
Dialogue: MR
Score: MR
Settings: MR
Action: SP
Humour: MR
Cinematography: SP
Benign Bizarre: MR
Suspense: MR
Minor Characters: MR
Glamour: SP
Bond performance: MR
SP - 3
MR - 15
Moonraker is Bizarre at times though always enjoyed watching it, also just because a film gets a low score in this vs scenario does not mean I don't enjoy the film with the lower score. Spectre is sure to win a few soon...
Title track: MR
Titles: MR
Main villain: MR
Main Bond Girl: MR
Henchman: TIE
Plot: MR
Dialogue: MR
Score: MR
Settings: MR
Action: MR
Humour: MR
Cinematography: SP
Benign Bizarre: SP
Suspense: MR
Minor Characters: MR
Glamour: MR
Bond performance: MR
MR - 14
SP - 3
TIE - 1
I first want to say that, even though I "grew up" at the time Roger Moore was Bond, overall I prefer Daniel Craig's films. It just so happens that, while I like SPECTRE, it doesn't grab me the way MR does. The way the films were directed probably have something to do with it, but I think a lot of it also comes down to story and dialogue (I think EON needs totally fresh writing blood). MR still says blockbuster to me. I think there's something to what @bondjames said in another thread about how MR was "the last of the great, larger than life Bond films that only Lewis Gilbert knew how to deliver to perfection." Yes, MR is over-the-top in places, and Bond's "a woman" lines about Goodhead are very dated. But I enjoy the ride and look forward to many scenes to the very end. I've only seen SPECTRE twice...we'll see if it grows on me.
Probably some credit for MR should go to John Glen, who edited it, before becoming director. Didn't really zero in until now that he also edited OHMSS as well as TSWLM. I read here somewhere that Glen is known for his action scenes, and I can believe it. I agree...I rank SPECTRE higher than some other Bond films.
We aren't too far off in terms of the content of our opinions here. I agree with you about the Austrian plane chase, it's not an easy sell (I don't buy much of it). The last action set sags beneath the lack of emotional weight and excessive setup. In a way, that's very much on par with Moonraker, though under totally different context. I have trouble buying the suspense of Moonraker with the globes. The thing with danger is that, for me at least, it's based on convincing follow up. I basically concede that no harm will happen after the preceeding events (my loss as well as everyone who shares that belief). For me the suspense in Spectre was never about Blofeld, it was about what he was going to do to Bond. In that regard, it's concealed until the end of the second act, which is a good while to maintain a hook. Though, I can agree that suspense is not entirely clear cut in this case -- there's enough to cherry pick on either side.
In terms of the action, I think the thing you said that sticks out about the cable car scene is that it doesn't "take you out of it." Action is supposed to get you into it. For Spectre, if it didn't have Hinx, it would be significantly worse because he legitimately acts terrifying. There's never any doubt he is superior to Bond physically, but has a higher level of sophistication than Jaws because he has foresight. Bond is honestly lucky to get out of those situations. Just to go back to suspense, I was expecting Hinx to come back any time near the end. That's a small addition to things there. Anyway, I didn't mean to make it sound like Moonraker < Star Wars. I only brought up Star Wars because in the initial cuts, it suffered from what Moonraker does action-wise. Scenes like that need to have flow and pace to give them a relatable connection. It's almost like preparing an exotic meal, but serving each component on a separate plate. It's not interacting with anything.
I like the action of the Moonraker PTS and gondola scenes, but I don't really know how that competes with a near equal PTS of Spectre (action-wise), the car chase in Rome and the fistfight. What's tipping the scale there? One films action just passes to support the other content while the other one relies on it for most of its heft. :-?
Title track: MR
Titles: SP
Main villain: MR
Main Bond Girl: MR
Henchman: TIE
Plot: MR
Dialogue: SP
Score: MR
Settings: MR
Action: SP
Humour: MR
Cinematography: SP
Benign Bizarre: MR
Suspense: MR
Minor Characters: MR
Glamour: MR
Bond performance: MR
Surprised myself with the results as SP is higher in my current rankings. Oh well, the scores are:
MR - 12
SP - 5
Tie - 1
Much as it is anathema to me to agree with anything @IGUANNA says on moral grounds he's right here.
I have my opinions on SP but for this thread I have been dispassionately ranking each individual element against the other.
If people either hate or love SP so much that they automatically give it an 18-0 win or an 18-0 loss then there no point in bothering to come on this thread.
The fun of this thread is not knowing when you start each ranking what the outcome is going to be.
I've surprised myself on a few where, when you broke the films down, it was much closer or a different result to what I would have said if someone just asked me 'which is the better film?'
There is definitely a 'sum of their parts' thing with a lot of Bond films with some, when you break them down, having very good parts which don't really gel together as a whole and some having rubbish parts but for some reason it all hangs together brilliantly.
Yeah I was expecting Spectre to do a lot better on mine, as I quite enjoy it. Very surprised that I had it come as a tie with LALD and TMWTGG as I do hold them to be lower down in my Bond film rankings.
@Mansfield, it's not necessary for a film to have more scenes in number that eclipse its competitor in order to win a category ranking. One particular scene may be so impressive that it causes a voter to put that film ahead of the other.
In MR's case, from an action standpoint there is the fantastic PTS fall (which was ahead of its time for 1979 and is beautifully filmed and scored until the Jaws fall), the Chang fight (I loved it, because Bond starts as the hunted, but then becomes the pursuer), Sugar Loaf cable car sequence (beautifully filmed, and so iconic that it was recently homaged in the Mechanic Resurrection..... I love the scene up to Dolly's appearance), boat chase (this one is pretty weak as you note, and with poor green screen work), python fight (only spoiled by the pen gadget at the end), gondola (again, wonderfully filmed, but spoiled by the silly gadgets) and finally the space fights (I love the entire space station sequence from start to finish, including the fights).
What an insult to Barry.
Brilliant.
Ah. TWINE rules!
Seriously though, I do enjoy this thread and hopefully certain members will calm down.
Sorry am I misunderstanding you that you are claiming the pedestrian Jaws train fight is one of the top 3 fights of the series?
It's not even top 10.
Off the top of my head:
FRWL Bond v Grant
GF Bond v Oddjob
TB Bond v Bouvar
YOLT Bond v Osato heavy
OHMSS Bond v Che Che
DAF Bond v Franks
MR Bond v Chang (or is it Cha?)
TLD Green 4 v Necros
GE Bond v Alec
CR Bond v Fisher
CR Bond v Obanno
QOS Bond v Slate
SF Bond v Patrice (skyscraper)
SP Bond v Hinx
You could make an argument to inch it ahead of maybe the YOLT and SF ones but it's nowhere near the rest and light years from being in the top 3.
I wasn't suggesting Jaws was a top 3 fight.
That doesn't make it any less iconic. There is more to a good fight scene than justing being intense. For example, all of the Craig fights before Hinx are forgettable because he isn't opposing anyone with an imposing psychology. They are all shot expertly with great execution, but they don't leave a lasting impression. Peter Franks, Chang, Patrice, etc. all fall under this umbrella.
That was the essence of my point. There is Grant, Oddjob, Hinx and from there I wouldn't argue over the order unless someone put Oddjob first. I would personally go for: 1. Grant, 2. Hinx, 3. Oddjob.
I'd put Alac at the top of the next section, probably along with Necros. Jaws is somewhere in the neighborhood for me here.
If there was a category called 'fight' or 'hand to hand combat' then I would agree with you, although I really like the Chang/Bond fight in MR. Just because a fight is more visceral doesn't mean that it is better for all viewers.
RE: My earlier point about one particular scene in one film eclipsing all other scenes in another film - I was not necessarily referring to SP vs. MR with that statement, but rather commenting more generally.
Having said that, I rate the centrifuge scene (Moore's acting, Holly's reaction, the music, the tension) and Corinne's death higher than anything in SP personally.
This is all subjective mind you.
Not really sure what is you are categorising here.
The fight itself or its iconicness?
Grant and Hinx (although debatable to class Hinx as 'iconic' already given the film isn't even a year old. I think you need some historical perspective to dish out the iconic label) score high in both categories but The Oddjob fight when classed purely as a fight is not amazing. It's not particularly visceral or well choreographed (they spend a lot of time sizing each other up) but it can be classed as a iconic scene, if not quite a classic fight, because it's Bond v Oddjob in Fort Knox FFS.
Whereas Bond v Obanno is a much better fight - hard hitting, brutal, brilliantly staged - but doesn't go down as iconic because who the hell is Obanno.
I wouldn't regard that as a fight per se. It's a staggering action sequence with arguably the best stunt of the series but until they fall out of the plane it's a very average fight and certainly not as good as Necros v Green 4.
Maybe it's closer between the two than I'd like to imagine for action. Obviously our definition of action will vary from person to person. If the reason an action scene is good is because the music adds tension, well, there is already a music section in this topic. The action in my mind is mostly the choreography and execution, which has some to do with acting insofar as character engagement is involved, but not necessarily taking into account performance value (because the work is not always performed by the lead actor). Minor things like Moore's convincing distress instead of a Brozza pain face can enhance the experience. We may selectively apply the setting of the film as it relates to each action scene. Completely out of context, the centrifuge scene is better for me than within the film itself because it basically hands Bond information that the Drax organization is behind the disappearance of the spacecraft so early in the film, compared to the film two years later, which has Kristatos slickly deceiving Bond until the second half of the film (significantly better imo). Moonraker is frequently at fault of this, though not always as I really like the anaconda scene. That's easily the best attempted predator death scene in the franchise for me. Spectre is not as frequently at fault for overstepping the plot, probably because it doesn't have as much going on, but it does have a positive side effect of having most of the action feeling properly placed. Though the final confrontation is extremely contrived and disengaging due to all of the forced material. And as a result, the action in Spectre stands out quite a bit because it gets to you more than the rest of the content. I always takeaway the adventure and carefreeness of Moonraker way more than its intensity or excitement.
Anyway, I think we fleshed out this one just about as much as we possibly can.
(:|
Yes, it's true that music, acting, lighting, and context within the narrative can impact our perceptions of a particular scene and our rating of it.
PS: I happen to really like everything about the cable car sequence up to and including the meeting between Dolly and Jaws. To this day, I think it's one of the better sequences in the pre-Glen Bond films.
It's always perplexing to me why she didn't get back in the golf cart that she arrived in. Perhaps she figured that she didn't have the right to use it anymore since her employment was terminated? Still, it seems like a long walk back. You'd probably want to get out of there as quickly as you could in that situation.
As far as climbing a tree, it's certainly a viable option. But then what? If Drax has sent the dogs to kill you then eventually he will just send someone else back there to shoot you out of the tree. Although, that's probably a better option than letting the dogs tear you apart. She was in full panic mode and instinct told her to just keep moving forward, away from the source of danger.
At least, as you pointed out, it moves the story along nicely with a wonderful piece by Barry.
exactly, we should not always criticise when characters in a particular Bond film make mistakes or behave irrationally, especially if they are in panic. (I mean if I was chased by some dogs I would certainly not act very intelligently.) This especially applies to minor characters that are not so experienced in spy work. It is much worse if the whole film or at least the villain's plan or the character developments do not make senses.
Very clever thinking,and ties in very well.