Were Orlov's, Koskov's and Ourumov's Russian Troops Renegades as well (or not)?

Comments

• BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb

  March 2016 Posts: 9,020

  Orlov more or less tried to topple his superior.
  The troops didn't know that I believe.
  
  Ourumov on the other hand seemed to have control over an unidentified number of troops that I suspect knew about Ourumov's plans.
  
  As for Koskov, that's difficult to say. But I'd say the troops thought they were acting in the interest of Russia in Afghanistan. There is no evidence against it, is there?
• royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.

  March 2016 Posts: 4,423

  Question - Are the Russian Red Army troops in their command as Generals in on their plots (i.e. that they are renegades also) or are they believing in the words of another renegade, Colonel Rosa Klebb in FRWL, that they're "all doing it for Mother Russia" or in other words are not part of the respective conspiracies in OP, TLD and GE?
  
  A most worthy and interesting question my dear @Dragonpol.
  
  I'll answer the three Generals separately, to the best of my knowledge -
  
  1) Orlov
  
  He was shoot by, either U.S or West German troops, presumably. Certainly, Gogol had “loyal” soldiers with him, when Orlov was shot.
  
  It would seem feasible that there it a selected group of Russians who view the current détente the way Orlov does, and it would assume they would have sympathetic Russians soldiers to do their dirty work.
  
  Perhaps Orlov recruited some of these, when the gems are smuggled into the train and to Orlov's car. Or Orlov had the twins or Gobinda take care of that problem. Either way, they were bound to shoot Bond when Orlov alerted them to his presence.
  
  Verdict - I say a select few knew of Orlov's intentions, but the majority of them were “doing it for Mother Russia”.
  
  2) Koskov
  
  Necros was a mercenary, presumably trained in Russia, judging by his comments, so that takes care of Koskov's right hand man. As a high ranking General, Koskov would have no problems arranging his scheme. Although the Russian fellow who met Koskov in the Soviet Airbase, seemed rather chummy, so he could be in on the whole palava.
  
  Verdict – Koskov was in cahoots with Whitaker, and no one else.
  
  3) Ourumov
  
  Ourumov was in it for the money. All his contacts were from the Janus group, i.e. Xenia. Judging by the esteem the Russian committee has for him, it would easy for him to go undetected as a traitor, as M's analysts calls him “the next iron man of Russia”. Maybe Ourumov started out this way, but once the Iron Curtain fell, he went full on capitalist and started sniffing around the Russian arms deals, thus leading him to Janus.
  
  Verdict – by the mid-90's, the other Russians thought Ourumov was a bit “old hat”, a “relic of the cold war”, treating him with a slight amusement, a call back to the good old days, thus no one treated him seriously. Hence I don't think Ourumov found any sympathy amongst his peers and subordinates, unlike in Orlov's case, forcing him to plough his own furrow, should we say. Only Mishkin saw the danger, but Ourumov duped the soldiers into thinking Bond killed Mishkin.
  
  Overall verdict -
  The filmmakers were at pains to keep the Bonds apolitical, so the three mentioned above were in purpose acting on their own volition.
  
• ForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens

  March 2016 Posts: 1,984

  Yes, they went against the orders of their superiors, so obviously any soldiers that were loyal to them had to be as well. Unless, of course, their superiors didn't know about it (which seems to be the case).
• CommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea

  March 2016 Posts: 8,266

  First you have to consider Russian military culture. As far as I know paranoia was (and is) part of it, which leads to ordinary soldiers not questioning their orders. They may be 'secret' after all and questioning them might get you in trouble. Moreover a lot of things were done in secrecy, especially at higher levels. So, for a Russian General, it's easy to use foot soldiers to do their dirty work without them understanding or questioning their orders.
  
• Dragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com

  March 2016 Posts: 18,281

  royale65 wrote: »

  Question - Are the Russian Red Army troops in their command as Generals in on their plots (i.e. that they are renegades also) or are they believing in the words of another renegade, Colonel Rosa Klebb in FRWL, that they're "all doing it for Mother Russia" or in other words are not part of the respective conspiracies in OP, TLD and GE?
  
  A most worthy and interesting question my dear @Dragonpol.
  
  I'll answer the three Generals separately, to the best of my knowledge -
  
  1) Orlov
  
  He was shoot by, either U.S or West German troops, presumably. Certainly, Gogol had “loyal” soldiers with him, when Orlov was shot.
  
  It would seem feasible that there it a selected group of Russians who view the current détente the way Orlov does, and it would assume they would have sympathetic Russians soldiers to do their dirty work.
  
  Perhaps Orlov recruited some of these, when the gems are smuggled into the train and to Orlov's car. Or Orlov had the twins or Gobinda take care of that problem. Either way, they were bound to shoot Bond when Orlov alerted them to his presence.
  
  Verdict - I say a select few knew of Orlov's intentions, but the majority of them were “doing it for Mother Russia”.
  
  2) Koskov
  
  Necros was a mercenary, presumably trained in Russia, judging by his comments, so that takes care of Koskov's right hand man. As a high ranking General, Koskov would have no problems arranging his scheme. Although the Russian fellow who met Koskov in the Soviet Airbase, seemed rather chummy, so he could be in on the whole palava.
  
  Verdict – Koskov was in cahoots with Whitaker, and no one else.
  
  3) Ourumov
  
  Ourumov was in it for the money. All his contacts were from the Janus group, i.e. Xenia. Judging by the esteem the Russian committee has for him, it would easy for him to go undetected as a traitor, as M's analysts calls him “the next iron man of Russia”. Maybe Ourumov started out this way, but once the Iron Curtain fell, he went full on capitalist and started sniffing around the Russian arms deals, thus leading him to Janus.
  
  Verdict – by the mid-90's, the other Russians thought Ourumov was a bit “old hat”, a “relic of the cold war”, treating him with a slight amusement, a call back to the good old days, thus no one treated him seriously. Hence I don't think Ourumov found any sympathy amongst his peers and subordinates, unlike in Orlov's case, forcing him to plough his own furrow, should we say. Only Mishkin saw the danger, but Ourumov duped the soldiers into thinking Bond killed Mishkin.
  
  Overall verdict -
  The filmmakers were at pains to keep the Bonds apolitical, so the three mentioned above were in purpose acting on their own volition.

  
  Thanks so very much @royale65! Great analysis and I think you are spot on there. My problem is that I overthink things regarding James Bond a bit too much sometimes!
  
• TheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'

  March 2016 Posts: 9,117

  I would say in the vast majority of cases the soldiers are merely following the orders of a General. I think it's underestimating the power of military culture combined with Russian culture to think any rank and file soldiers would dare question a superior officer. They would assume that a Russian General is doing what is in the interests of the country and if it seems a bit dodgy to them it is because they can't see the bigger picture.
  
  Orlov - Certainly the guy who arms the bomb with Gobinda is in on the plot as his comment 'Be at least 20 miles away when it goes off' would confirm. But all the other soldiers seem fairly innocent and are just acting under orders 'Kill him', 'Follow that car'.
  
  The other question that needs addressing is 'If he succeeds is Orlov actually a traitor or a hero of the Soviet Union?'
  
  If his plan succeeds it will neuter the West's nuclear thread and allow the Russians to conquer Western Europe. Surely expanding the reach of communism is what the Soviet Union was all about?
  
  Koskov - I think Colonel Feyador might be in on things (although Koskov says he his on a secret state mission so perhaps not) but the rest of his men are again just following orders and despite them thinking 'Exchanging diamonds for these strange little bags with some dubious Afghans has to be dodgy' who is going to have the bottle to call out Koskov as a traitor?
  
  Ourumov - The only men he directly commands are the men at Sernaya whom he kills and the men in the archive who just see a prisoner running amok and so react accordingly.
  
  The point with all three is that the main thing they bring to the table for the other villains they are in cahoots with (it's interesting that none of them work alone) is the uniform and with it the ability to command troops who'll will obey without question for Mother Russia.
  
  Apart from the bomb arming guy in OP pretty much all the other Russian soldiers are just obeying a superior because they don't want to end up in Siberia.
• Ludovico

  March 2016 edited March 2016 Posts: 15,125

  I agree with @TheWizardofIce . I seriously doubt a substantial number of these general's men knew anything of their double deals. If some may have had suspicions, who would have dared to report on them? Who could they speak to anyway? If the underling's suspicions are right, then the general could easily find out and eliminate him. if the suspicions are wrong, then the underling is maybe in greater trouble! And Russia never had the transparency of Western democracies. Secret deals, covert operations against their own people, that was business as usual in USSR and the Cold War had ended less than a decade ago during GE. I am not even certain any of these generals' behavior would have appeared dodgy, or even out of the ordinary, to their men.