Was Brosnan "short changed" during his Stint?

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  • Posts: 15,124
    chrisisall wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    it went to the bottom in DAD, which nearly killed the franchise.
    That's funny, I thought it was one of the higher grossing Bond films...

    Truth is, he WAS popular, ALL the way to the end of his tenure. His films made money. Brosnan was good for Bond.

    It still nearly killed it. It was popular because it was a Bond movie, it was at the same time ridiculed and it pictured the franchise as lazy and creatively bankrupt. And CR was created partially in reaction to it.
  • Die Another Day didn't kill nearly kill the franchise at all.

    It made lots of money, got decent enough reviews and inspired them to take a different direction, which gave us CR.

    DAD may have been crap but it was good for the franchise.
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 6,396
    Exactly. No one can say the films failed from a commercial point of view because the simple truth is they didn't. They were hugely successful. DAD took over $450 million worldwide and was at that time the highest grossing Bond film ever and yet I consider it the worst Bond film ever made. It had ventured dangerously close to self parody by that point. Something that was highlighted by the Austin Powers franchise.

    My opinion on the Brosnan era is, with the exception of GE, it failed on an artistic level. I simply didn't like the three films that followed. (Ok, there were aspects of TWINE I enjoyed and was an improvement over TND).
    Die Another Day didn't kill nearly kill the franchise at all.

    It made lots of money, got decent enough reviews and inspired them to take a different direction, which gave us CR.

    DAD may have been crap but it was good for the franchise.

    I disagree strongly with that. If I recall, it got a right kicking by critics at the time of it's release.
  • Posts: 686
    Exactly. No one can say the films failed from a commercial point of view because the simple truth is they didn't. They were hugely successful. DAD took over $450 million worldwide and was at that time the highest grossing Bond film ever and yet I consider it the worst Bond film ever made. It had ventured dangerously close to self parody by that point. Something that was highlighted by the Austin Powers franchise.

    My opinion on the Brosnan era is, with the exception of GE, it failed on an artistic level. I simply didn't like the three films that followed. (Ok, there were aspects of TWINE I enjoyed and was an improvement over TND).

    Right, the "failure" of the Brosnan era was caused by a lack of genuine creativity.
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 12,837
    Die Another Day didn't kill nearly kill the franchise at all.

    It made lots of money, got decent enough reviews and inspired them to take a different direction, which gave us CR.

    DAD may have been crap but it was good for the franchise.

    I disagree strongly with that. If I recall, it got a right kicking by critics at the time of it's release.

    I'm sure I'd remember if it did that badly.

    EDIT- http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/die_another_day/

    Quite a few positive reviews. In fact the majority are positive.

  • Posts: 15,124
    Die Another Day didn't kill nearly kill the franchise at all.

    It made lots of money, got decent enough reviews and inspired them to take a different direction, which gave us CR.

    DAD may have been crap but it was good for the franchise.

    Making the money was not the problem. The laziness of it was. It was good the way a venom is good to find its counter-poison.

    And I am not debating here whether Brosnan was a popular Bond or not. Of course he was a popular Bond during his tenure. Heck, I absolutely LOVED his take on Bond until DAD. But he did leave with a bitter taste. Because of DAD, yes, but because he also felt frustrated in the role with the material he was given. He said so much in interviews.
  • But if it made money, and if CR was made because of it, then how in any way did it nearly kill the franchise?

    It was crap but it helped the franchise more than anything else.
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 6,396
    Die Another Day didn't kill nearly kill the franchise at all.

    It made lots of money, got decent enough reviews and inspired them to take a different direction, which gave us CR.

    DAD may have been crap but it was good for the franchise.

    I disagree strongly with that. If I recall, it got a right kicking by critics at the time of it's release.

    I'm sure I'd remember if it did that badly.

    EDIT- http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/die_another_day/

    Quite a few positive reviews. In fact the majority are positive.

    But at the same time only 49% of the audience polled actually liked it, which means the majority didn't!

    Oh and there's this from Sir Rog:

    "I thought it just went too far – and that’s from me, the first Bond in space! Invisible cars and dodgy CGI footage? Please!"

    You know you're in trouble when you get that comment! ;-)
  • Posts: 15,124
    Die Another Day didn't kill nearly kill the franchise at all.

    It made lots of money, got decent enough reviews and inspired them to take a different direction, which gave us CR.

    DAD may have been crap but it was good for the franchise.

    I disagree strongly with that. If I recall, it got a right kicking by critics at the time of it's release.

    I'm sure it didn't do that badly.

    It got mixed reviews. And this was on release. A perspective on a movie can change since its release, when the excitement is gone. Batman Forever was also received with mixed feelings, now it is generally perceived as nearly as bad as B&R, or certainly as a predecessor.
    But if it made money, and if CR was made because of it, then how in any way did it nearly kill the franchise?

    It was crap but it helped the franchise more than anything else.

    I fail to see how a movie that was in your own words crap can help a franchise, any franchise (unless you have a crap franchise to work on). Because it made money? I already mentioned it was irrelevant. Of course it made money. MR made money. DAF made money. Batman Forever made money. I'm glad they didn't go the same with Bond 21 to make money.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Ludovico wrote:
    I fail to see how a movie that was in your own words crap can help a franchise,
    I'll try to keep this simple: Movie is popular + movie makes money = continuation of franchise.
    The 'crap' is the irrelevant part here, Ludo.
  • He made one of the great Bond films which is now considered a Bond classic. And like everyone else after watching the first half of DAD I thought here we go another classic and then we all know that it went south after that.

    I actually think Twine is great...action, cheese, style, gadgets, stunts, silly plot but I loved it and I thought PB was his best in that film...über Bond.

    Yes he was hard done by in terms of the scripts and certainly production values in DAD.

  • Posts: 6,396
    chrisisall wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    I fail to see how a movie that was in your own words crap can help a franchise,
    I'll try to keep this simple: Movie is popular + movie makes money = continuation of franchise.
    The 'crap' is the irrelevant part here, Ludo.

    I think what he's trying to say, as am I, is that despite it's financial success, which did indeed bankroll the next film, the franchise couldn't continue along the same tracks and not expect to see it's popularity and profits dwindle. It's the same reason that Cubby decided to go a different route with FYEO despite the pheonemenal success of MR.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    It's the same reason that Cubby decided to go a different route with FYEO despite the pheonemenal success of MR.
    Perfect analogy there.
    So we can agree, like MR did not come close to killing the franchise, neither did DAD. Both merely heralded change of direction.

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited August 2013 Posts: 18,281
    I think that there's a lot of ignorant revisionism going on regarding the Brosnan era currently as it's the "in" thing to do it would seem in the Craig era. Perhaps the time for the criticism of Craig will come after his day as Bond too. I see a pattern emerging,,,
  • Posts: 6,396
    chrisisall wrote:
    It's the same reason that Cubby decided to go a different route with FYEO despite the pheonemenal success of MR.
    Perfect analogy there.
    So we can agree, like MR did not come close to killing the franchise, neither did DAD. Both merely heralded change of direction.

    I've never said otherwise. If anything, LTK came much closer to killing the franchise more than DAD even though it's the far superior film.

    I'm just stating on a personal level, I generally disliked the films during the Brosnan era even though I liked PB as Bond.
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 15,124
    chrisisall wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    I fail to see how a movie that was in your own words crap can help a franchise,
    I'll try to keep this simple: Movie is popular + movie makes money = continuation of franchise.
    The 'crap' is the irrelevant part here, Ludo.

    Maybe I am too subtle, but I do think quality is relevant if one wants to keep something popular. On short term, of course DAD was popular and made money. A second DAD would have killed it, or certainly jeopardize Bond's future. DAD did in very much the same way as Batman & Robin did for Batman.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    DAD was very popular on some of the leading Bond forums of the time I recall, some even venturing to call it "the best James Bond film ever", though I was never one of those fans. I never jump on the bondwagon, so to speak or get too carried away with fervent praise that later is just embarrassing.
  • Posts: 686
    Dragonpol wrote:
    DAD was very popular on some of the leading Bond forums of the time I recall, some even venturing to call it "the best James Bond film ever", though I was never one of those fans. I never jump on the bondwagon, so to speak or get too carried away with fervent praise that later is just embarrassing.

    I think the Invisible Car went over the line.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Perdogg wrote:
    Dragonpol wrote:
    DAD was very popular on some of the leading Bond forums of the time I recall, some even venturing to call it "the best James Bond film ever", though I was never one of those fans. I never jump on the bondwagon, so to speak or get too carried away with fervent praise that later is just embarrassing.

    I think the Invisible Car went over the line.

    It certainly did. It went over the line and then it did doughnuts at the nearest crossroads!
  • Posts: 15,124
    Dragonpol wrote:
    I think that there's a lot of ignorant revisionism going on regarding the Brosnan era currently as it's the "in" thing to do it would seem in the Craig era. Perhaps the time for the criticism of Craig will come after his day as Bond too. I see a pattern emerging,,,

    There are differences however: Brosnan was almost universally welcomed when he became Bond, he was plebiscited before the movie even started shooting. Craig was seen with skepticism, sometimes even hostility. He earned his 00 status, so to speak. And QOS, his most heavily criticised Bond movie, it was not directed at its lead. So I am not sure his tenure will be seen with as much disdain as Craig's.
    Dragonpol wrote:
    DAD was very popular on some of the leading Bond forums of the time I recall, some even venturing to call it "the best James Bond film ever", though I was never one of those fans. I never jump on the bondwagon, so to speak or get too carried away with fervent praise that later is just embarrassing.

    I was not on Bond forums then, but on others I used to go to it was derided as ridiculous and in the Austin Powers territory. I remember the reaction in theaters: those who loved it loved it because it was dumb. And there were very few of them.
  • Posts: 6,396
    Dragonpol wrote:
    Perdogg wrote:
    Dragonpol wrote:
    DAD was very popular on some of the leading Bond forums of the time I recall, some even venturing to call it "the best James Bond film ever", though I was never one of those fans. I never jump on the bondwagon, so to speak or get too carried away with fervent praise that later is just embarrassing.

    I think the Invisible Car went over the line.

    It certainly did. It went over the line and then it did doughnuts at the nearest crossroads!

    But you wouldn't know it crossed the line. It was invisible ;-)
  • Dragonpol wrote:
    I think that there's a lot of ignorant revisionism going on regarding the Brosnan era currently as it's the "in" thing to do it would seem in the Craig era. Perhaps the time for the criticism of Craig will come after his day as Bond too. I see a pattern emerging,,,

    :)) Criticism of Craig has been ongoing before he even started filming, where have you been all the time! Yes he's popular enough now but as has been discussed on other threads, name one Bond other than Lazenby that got blistered like Craig has? Smear websites to start, and even worse for Craig due to the internet and many more television and media outlets. If anything, it can only improve for Craig as far as a historical view.

    Let's be fair here. Brosnan had it handed to him on a silver platter, hardly anyone criticized his choice or performances until later when it became obvious to all these "revisionists" that he didn't quite live up to the hype.





  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited August 2013 Posts: 18,281
    Dragonpol wrote:
    Perdogg wrote:
    Dragonpol wrote:
    DAD was very popular on some of the leading Bond forums of the time I recall, some even venturing to call it "the best James Bond film ever", though I was never one of those fans. I never jump on the bondwagon, so to speak or get too carried away with fervent praise that later is just embarrassing.

    I think the Invisible Car went over the line.

    It certainly did. It went over the line and then it did doughnuts at the nearest crossroads!

    But you wouldn't know it crossed the line. It was invisible ;-)

    My point was you would if you were the one driving it! I think... :) And even then you'd still see the tyre-marks.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    LTK came much closer to killing the franchise more than DAD
    Maybe it's my inner English teacher here, but since DAD did not come close to killing the franchise, saying "more than DAD" is incorrect.
    And LTK did not come close to killing the franchise either. Drama queen linguistics?
    Ludovico wrote:
    DAD did in very much the same [thing for Bond] as Batman & Robin did for Batman.
    See? Again, dramatics. Here, I'll accurize your statement:
    "DAD did in very much the same [thing for Bond] as MR did for Bond.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited August 2013 Posts: 18,281
    Dragonpol wrote:
    I think that there's a lot of ignorant revisionism going on regarding the Brosnan era currently as it's the "in" thing to do it would seem in the Craig era. Perhaps the time for the criticism of Craig will come after his day as Bond too. I see a pattern emerging,,,

    :)) Criticism of Craig has been ongoing before he even started filming, where have you been all the time! Yes he's popular enough now but as has been discussed on other threads, name one Bond other than Lazenby that got blistered like Craig has? Smear websites to start, and even worse for Craig due to the internet and many more television and media outlets. If anything, it can only improve for Craig as far as a historical view.

    Let's be fair here. Brosnan had it handed to him on a silver platter, hardly anyone criticized his choice or performances until later when it became obvious to all these "revisionists" that he didn't quite live up to the hype.





    Well in my defence I would state here that what I meant was after the praise Craig mostly currently gets perhaps he will face criticism for some things in his films too in ten to twenty years time, just as Brosnan is castigated now. Obviously the criticisms will be different as Craig is a very different Bond from Brosnan - perhaps Craig's dourness will be mentioned? Anyone who criticised Craig BEFORE they even saw one frame of film of him as Bond is obviously a contemptible idiot not worth considering in any serious debate. That's what they have DCINB for. Sorry if I missed all that - I suspect that I did so deliberately not to be infected with their disease.
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 15,124
    chrisisall wrote:
    See? Again, dramatics. Here, I'll accurize your statement:
    "DAD did in very much the same [thing for Bond] as MR did for Bond.

    You can dismiss it as dramatic all you want, but I will keep my statement as it is, thank you very much. If something is done in reaction to something else, to correct the mistakes of a previous entry in a movie franchise for instance, I don't think said previous movie was very good, useful or relevant. This is why I take Schumacher's contribution to Batman the same way as Tamahori's take on Bond: stupid, ridiculous, retarded, ignorant, cynical efforts. And I see no merit whatsoever in them.
    Dragonpol wrote:
    I think that there's a lot of ignorant revisionism going on regarding the Brosnan era currently as it's the "in" thing to do it would seem in the Craig era. Perhaps the time for the criticism of Craig will come after his day as Bond too. I see a pattern emerging,,,

    :)) Criticism of Craig has been ongoing before he even started filming, where have you been all the time! Yes he's popular enough now but as has been discussed on other threads, name one Bond other than Lazenby that got blistered like Craig has? Smear websites to start, and even worse for Craig due to the internet and many more television and media outlets. If anything, it can only improve for Craig as far as a historical view.

    Let's be fair here. Brosnan had it handed to him on a silver platter, hardly anyone criticized his choice or performances until later when it became obvious to all these "revisionists" that he didn't quite live up to the hype.

    My thoughts exactly. Brosnan had it easier than any other Bond actor at the start. The public wanted Brosnan, the producers wanted Brosnan and Brosnan wanted Brosnan. Craig had to earn it. This will also play a role when one looks back at his time as Bond, just like the early (premature?) approval of Brosnan as Bond did after he left the role.
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 6,396
    chrisisall wrote:
    LTK came much closer to killing the franchise more than DAD
    Maybe it's my inner English teacher here, but since DAD did not come close to killing the franchise, saying "more than DAD" is incorrect.
    And LTK did not come close to killing the franchise either. Drama queen linguistics?

    Yes and thank you for that(!). I never said anything about killing the franchise, I was merely making the point that if DAD is accused of killing the franchise then there would be more of an argument for LTK in that regard due to it being the least successful film!

    Perhaps before making "drama queen" accusations, you might want to take your time and read the comments more carefully.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Drama queen accusations are what they peddle over on CBn. Please, folks, don't let that happen here on the infinitely better MI6 Community. We're better than that, surely.
  • Posts: 15,124
    Chrisisall is certainly getting on my nerves now, I am struggling to remain civil. I think it is fair to say that he has been patronizing.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Perhaps before making "drama queen" accusations, you might want to take your time and read the comments more carefully.
    "The Moon came much closer to killing the Earth more than Mars"
    Do you see the problem with this now? Neither did either, so one cannot do it more.
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